Mana vs Fraim

Paul

You are absolutely right. Some people do look for a sound at home which has little in common with a live performance. I would like to think that this sort of 'listener' is a very long way from either a typical mana or naim user.

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Some people do look for a sound at home which has little in common with a live performance.

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I may be confused about your meaning, but why would you expect an album recorded in a studio and screwed with by some recording engineer to sound like a live performance?

What do you mean by live sound? Small jazz quintet in a small room, large orchestra in concert hall, amplified rock group at an open air concert - they all sound so different. What common element are you taking from these?

David

"why would you expect an album recorded in a studio and screwed with by some recording engineer to sound like a live performance?"

"What do you mean by live sound? Small jazz quintet in a small room, large orchestra in concert hall, amplified rock group at an open air concert - they all sound so different. What common element are you taking from these?"

Well the bottom line for me is to try to recreate what the artists wanted captured on the recording. This certainly includes the acoustic of the environment if thats what they are after. If Thom Yorke wants me to hear him sing via a load of effects then thats fine also. If the band wanted me to feel that I'm sat hearing them play then I want my hifi to realistically portray that experience. If the sound engineer screws up the recordings ability to communicate a realistic sound then thats a shame.

My point is that many people do not really want a powerfully hit snare drum to sound like a powerfully hit snare drum when they listen.

"Just how long should I have 'borrowed' it for then, Simon?"

I think two weeks is plenty of time to form an opinion.

My point was that you indirectly implied you had made a fraim purchase and then moved on to mana. To not make this clear is to very gently mislead IMO.

Stallion

You misunderstood my point. I want a snare drum to sound like a snare drum!!!!! These 'many people' I talk of have got it wrong.

Stallion

No problem. Looking at my post I can see how it could be misinterpreted.

time for a group hug

I'm keeping my clothes on.

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Anyway, all you can realistically ask a hi-fi system to do is reproduce what's on the recording as accurately as possible.

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This is of course true, but it is impossible to know exactly what is on the recording. If you listen on a poor hifi and miss detail to you it may or may not in fact exist. If you listen on a CDS2/552 and that detail is then apparent then fair enough, but what are you missing with a CDS2/552 You just don't know.

Of course you may expect a snare to sound a certain way, but you don't know what effect the room acoustics, recording technique etc have on the sound.

So often you hear "I added a Mana level (or whatever) and suddenly the band sounds like they are all playing in the same room" but it would be quite unusual for the band to actually have been playing in the same room at the same time (except for live performances). Usually all intruments are recorded separately and often in different rooms so surely a hifi showing this up is 'better'.

So what's the point you ask:

I think we agree that mana generally gives a more dynamic sound (edgy, bright, fast whatever). Now for a Drum Snare this will obviously sound more real because this is the type of sound produced by a snare, but that doesn't mean that is a more acurate representation of what was actually put to tape.

So Stallion looks for this sort of thing more than say a smooth fluid midrange, for him Mana is king (or maybe Stallion's hearing is such that he is not sensitive to high frequencies in the same way as some others are).

Ok, sound is most important, but aestethics plays a role too... has anyone managed to make Mana look good? (cue photos)

"I think it's more important to focus on the listening room and make that as good as possible instead of wondering if Mana or the Frame is the best choice"

Room acoustics have a huge effect on system performance - agreed. However stands have a very significant effect and their importance should not be underestimated.

"The best thing to do is to move everything (exept the speakers:) to another room. But how cool is that???"

The system still benefits from good supports even if not in the same room as the speakers.

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If you listen on a poor hifi and miss detail to you it may or may not in fact exist. If you listen on a CDS2/552 and that detail is then apparent then fair enough, but what are you missing with a CDS2/552 You just don't know.

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The above may be true, but is surely missing the point. Take an LP12, Nait 1 & Kans and play a record, and you should hear cogent, coherent music. It may not have depth-plumbing bass, a liquid mid-range, shimmering highs and detail to die for, but it will be music, in the sense that you will be able mentally to connect with and be stirred by it.

Play the same piece via (say) an Aiwa stack of silver plastic with animated neon displays and TurboKickArse bass susbsystem, and you could well have a higher level of percieved detail, but because the music is not being presented to you as coherently, you (or anyone else) are likely to dismiss it as a crap album, switch off and watch TV instead. That's why music sales are down, IMHO.

Better audio system perfomance should surely be adjudged by musical involvement, not by the sort of Ken Kessler score sheet prevalent in the late 70s. Supports are crucial in this because they form a vital part of the interface between your system and your room, and getting your system and your room to work with, rather than against each other is IMHO responsible for at least 50% of your system's total potential.

Further: I could not, until recently account for other people's perceptions that Mana supports produce results variously described as "harsh", "bright", "strident", and so on. We don't have very much Mana, but after a bit of experimentation (deliberately futtzing the setup), I can triumphantly report that I have successfully reproduced this effect, and it's really nasty. Suffice to say I put it back as it should be smartish. We've found Mana to add softness, tangibility and texture, as well as allowing everything (including the room) to cope much better with low notes so that they stop properly and are therefore better timed. To us, that adds up to much more music.

Certainly I would say that from my limited time spent listening to Naim systems on Fraim, Fraim can also do the "strident" thing, but possibly has less adjustment available to cure it. Fraim is certainly very competent, but is less single-minded than Mana in its intent, and to my eye looks a bit gluggy. I should say that I haven't tried it at home because it's too wide, and therefore couldn't be acommodated.

Best;

Mark

(an imperfect
forum environment is
better than none)

Anyway,

My honest opinion Manawise:

Under LP12 - works a treat
Under CDS2 - Doesn't work
Under DV amps - Not really sure.

Alex

Alex,

Fancy giving a bit more detail on why your view has changed?

David

Sorry

Only just caught up with this thread...

Guess I must be losing my clout

Firstly though I must admit to never having heard Hearsay or Kylie Minogue "Live" STS so I'll forgo that route....(this IS the stuff audiophools and frequent forum frequenters recommend right?)

As for the Fraim being Ugly? Hmmmm. Whatever.

You can't see the wires though. I like that....

P

It’s something like “throat’s clearing of the lesser poet”* because I don’t own an original Fraim, only custom-made imitations of it but for outsiders it’s very similar to the original one. Bringing them into the room was an immediate success, ther lady of the house liked it from the first moment and so did actually everybody, Hi-Fi nuts or just simple visitors.

An explanation may be that both my supports are low, they have only the Base plus two shelves each. Though no graphic designer myself, I’ve been dealing with typography for two decades and I’m convinced that this low version is the ideal form for such a support. It’s ergoinomic, either: CDP and Pre from the left, powered items from the right. Supposed you don’t have more than 6 items alltogether. Unfortunately, on the right wing I have to use the Base level as well, and it’s a drawback for sure. I tried to put one more item on the Base level of the left support and this had a very unpleasant effect immediately. (One more argument against going active instead of getting better quality equipment. Cost of surplus levels of Fraim must be added to the price – and you screw up the right proportions of the support.

graphoman
*Sorry, I had to translate it from Hungarian. Somebody should tell me the right idiom.

I've decided its a question of priorities. The CDS2 is wonderfully open, detailed, sweet at the top and tight at the bottom on Mana but, as Tony 'Flat Boy Slim' has observed, it does tend to dispense with the tune somewhat.

Tony's a bass player and the tune, especially the bass tune, is very important to him, hence his adoption of QS Ref. Mad as it may seem the raw 'tune' is far less important to me and nor do I believe it to be murdered by Mana to the extent Tony does.

Nonetheless, I have never been wholly convinced by Mana (or any glass surface) under the CDS2 and I have now decided that it is (probably) better on the StrataBase. Its less dynamic for sure but there's certainly more tune. I have been swapping backwards and forwards for months now so I haven't acted on a whim, yet, all recent visitors have observed something not quite right with the CDP on Mana. I don't believe the room or the mains are the main cause.

All that I have said above doesn't seem to apply to the LP12 which really relishes Mana - all the good points and the tune.

As far as the electronics are concerned, I suspect the Mana works but I can't be bothered to experiment.

Alex

My experience with Hutter is also that the isolation mechanism works partly against the CDSII. Given that, I wonder if there is anything different about the Fraim to make the effect complimentary.

Cliff - what absolute nonsense.

David

Cliff,

Maybe you're not being clear - maybe you have an axe to grind.

Whilst theoretically I can see where you are coming from, how can that be practically realised. Where is your starting point i.e. what is 'true' sound of Naim, and what leads you to conclude that Base and Tonwshend don't sound at all.

David

OK Cliff,

I can put my CDSII on my coffee table at home. I rap the coffee table - it makes a dead tap. It also doesn't sound very good.

David

Cliff,

No hard feelings - I'm a Hutter user after all ;-)

But to come back to one of your earlier points "In my system all I want to have make a sound is the speakers." If you were to take this to it's logical conclusion you're system would sound truly awful i.e. completely dead.

You will also know that if you turn up your system very loud, and then turn it down very quickly, you can hear the Naim cases ring. Certainly I can see why Julian would have gone for his approach. You also know that there is a Mana effect even if you sit the equipment outside the room where the speakers are.

My comment would be that there are a lot more variables in stand design than the fact that Mana 'sounds'. In the end we all choose what sounds right in our listening room.

David

Cliff,

OK, I take it you're ideal listening environment is a completely dead room?

Personally, I like the room to have a bit more life, and probably includes resonances from walls, windows, lightbulbs etc, partially deadened by sofas, carpets, curtains.....

David

A bad-tempered stands thread (what's new?), but this time Hutter vs Base/Townsend.

Obviously it's no more illuminating than the traditional Mana vs Fraim/Hutter/QS/whatever rows, but it makes a change.

Timo