Mana vs Fraim
Posted by: Christopher on 29 October 2002
Anybody done an objective comparison of these(ie without owning or prior to buying either one)? Looking for something to replace my Quad 
Posted on: 02 November 2002 by Martin Payne
quote:
Originally posted by Menilmontant1948:
I believe Cliff's point is that the function of an equipment stand should be not to impart any character of it's own into the sound of the system. In this repsect Townsend and Base go further than Fraim or Mana in doing this since their primary isolation systems (air and damped MDF) are intrinsically better at absorbing/counteracting vibration from the ground and equipment than some of the main design elements in Fraim and Mana (glass and metal).
On Starbase, I prefer the sound of glass/ball bearings under my CDSii to the Base01 platform.
The CDSii has metal feet, because it is designed to work at it's best when it has a solid connection to the floor.
The multiple levels of rubber 'isolation' in the Base do not supply this.
cheers, Martin
Posted on: 02 November 2002 by Alex S.
I'm using church bells under my speakers.
Of course I was grateful at the time. Just like I'm grateful I didn't try QS ref and umpteen mains solutions. We arrived here about the same time and I blame you entirely for my addiction to Brasso fumes.
Alex
Of course I was grateful at the time. Just like I'm grateful I didn't try QS ref and umpteen mains solutions. We arrived here about the same time and I blame you entirely for my addiction to Brasso fumes.
Alex
Posted on: 02 November 2002 by matthewr
"I don't think you're in a position to guess what I am saying or judge what Davids reaction was based on"
Well I've read what everybody has said and all I'm doing is saying I think what you appear to be saying makes little sense and doesn't really advance the argument.
As far as I can tell your point is that Mana is no good becuase it makes a ringing noise when you tap it. Which, however charitable someone might like to be on the subject of why Mana doesn't work, is at best simplistic and is more likely misleading if not completely spurious. Its as pointless as thinking, to pluck an example completely out of the air, that a preamp is no good becuase it has a remote control.
Which is pretty much what David said AFAICT. Specifically when he said "all [Cliff's] really said is that stands which make dull thumping noises make your hifi sound like a hifi sitting on a stand which makes a dull thumping noise when you tap it".
"Its (IMHO) a FACT that sound dampers (whoever designs them) are designed to remove energy imparted by sound waves as quickly and as silently as possible"
Because -- and here's the nub of the point -- you appear to have this single, grossly simplistic view of how equipment supports work that is based on them being making a thud when tapped. You are reducing an obviously complex subject on which there are many views, approaches and potential solutions to a single point because it has a superfically intuitive attraction, to wit, it doesn't vibrate so it must stop vibration.
What happens when you tap an LP12? It bounces and makes the stylus jump. Surely it would be better to design turntables that sit in massive granite slabs that wouldn't vibrate unless a bomb went off. Hang on people have tried that and it (generally) doesn't work. And the LP12 sounds great. Maybe my initial notion that bouncy record decks are bad was overly simplisitc if not just plain wrong?
Matthew
Well I've read what everybody has said and all I'm doing is saying I think what you appear to be saying makes little sense and doesn't really advance the argument.
As far as I can tell your point is that Mana is no good becuase it makes a ringing noise when you tap it. Which, however charitable someone might like to be on the subject of why Mana doesn't work, is at best simplistic and is more likely misleading if not completely spurious. Its as pointless as thinking, to pluck an example completely out of the air, that a preamp is no good becuase it has a remote control.
Which is pretty much what David said AFAICT. Specifically when he said "all [Cliff's] really said is that stands which make dull thumping noises make your hifi sound like a hifi sitting on a stand which makes a dull thumping noise when you tap it".
"Its (IMHO) a FACT that sound dampers (whoever designs them) are designed to remove energy imparted by sound waves as quickly and as silently as possible"
Because -- and here's the nub of the point -- you appear to have this single, grossly simplistic view of how equipment supports work that is based on them being making a thud when tapped. You are reducing an obviously complex subject on which there are many views, approaches and potential solutions to a single point because it has a superfically intuitive attraction, to wit, it doesn't vibrate so it must stop vibration.
What happens when you tap an LP12? It bounces and makes the stylus jump. Surely it would be better to design turntables that sit in massive granite slabs that wouldn't vibrate unless a bomb went off. Hang on people have tried that and it (generally) doesn't work. And the LP12 sounds great. Maybe my initial notion that bouncy record decks are bad was overly simplisitc if not just plain wrong?
Matthew
Posted on: 02 November 2002 by matthewr
"you are the one who is grossly simplifying everything by trying to imply that my point about sound dampening is only a small [snip]component in stand design"
No I'm saying that the fact that I believe you are wrong when you caim that Mana doesn't or cannot work becuase it rings when you tap it. You keep saying -- and so often that it seems unlikely that I have misread what you have written -- that an equipment support should not make a "sound" as you only want to hear your hi-fi. Which, ISTM, arbitarily ignores the possiblity of a successful stand design based on resonanting or vibrating parts.
"If you tap the case of the LP12 the sylus does not jump, if you hit the sub-chassis it does"
Well obviously.
IIRC John Watson has mentioned an experiment where you rest the stylus on your LP12 on an LP without switching it on, turn up your amp and tap the plinth. Apparently if you do this with an LP12 on Mana it makes substantially less noise than when you repeat this with the LP12 not on Mana. This, despite the fact that the Mana is presumably resonanting sympathetically with the tapping.
>> That is because Linn have designed the sub chassis and suspension to DAMPEN the effects of vibration on the outside of the case <<
My understanding was that it was tuned to resonante at certain frequencies but not at others so that it acts as a low pass filter that cuts off vibrations at the frequencies that cause the arm and cartridge to resonante.
Regardless, its seems to me that an LP12 is designed to eliminate unwanted vibration by vibrating/resonanting/ringing itself in much the same way that Mana does and to which you object.
"Why do you think Naim have those little plastic slider bits that go between the circuit board tray and the outside of the case"
IIRC its because there was a difference of opinion about whether the amps sound better with the cases damped or undamped and so the plastic slider allows you to try both options. Its certainly true that many of my Naim cases ring when tapped.
Matthew
No I'm saying that the fact that I believe you are wrong when you caim that Mana doesn't or cannot work becuase it rings when you tap it. You keep saying -- and so often that it seems unlikely that I have misread what you have written -- that an equipment support should not make a "sound" as you only want to hear your hi-fi. Which, ISTM, arbitarily ignores the possiblity of a successful stand design based on resonanting or vibrating parts.
"If you tap the case of the LP12 the sylus does not jump, if you hit the sub-chassis it does"
Well obviously.
IIRC John Watson has mentioned an experiment where you rest the stylus on your LP12 on an LP without switching it on, turn up your amp and tap the plinth. Apparently if you do this with an LP12 on Mana it makes substantially less noise than when you repeat this with the LP12 not on Mana. This, despite the fact that the Mana is presumably resonanting sympathetically with the tapping.
>> That is because Linn have designed the sub chassis and suspension to DAMPEN the effects of vibration on the outside of the case <<
My understanding was that it was tuned to resonante at certain frequencies but not at others so that it acts as a low pass filter that cuts off vibrations at the frequencies that cause the arm and cartridge to resonante.
Regardless, its seems to me that an LP12 is designed to eliminate unwanted vibration by vibrating/resonanting/ringing itself in much the same way that Mana does and to which you object.
"Why do you think Naim have those little plastic slider bits that go between the circuit board tray and the outside of the case"
IIRC its because there was a difference of opinion about whether the amps sound better with the cases damped or undamped and so the plastic slider allows you to try both options. Its certainly true that many of my Naim cases ring when tapped.
Matthew
Posted on: 04 November 2002 by matthewr
Cliff,
"In the case of mana users they seem to think that anyone with an explanation as to why they don't like Mana is an idiot"
I don't think you are an idiot I just disagree with your theory about Mana. It seems exactly as flawed to me as the previously popular theory that said ferrous metals are bad, Mana is ferrous therefore Mana is bad. ISTM to be logic from the all cows have four legs, that dog has four legs therefore its a cow.
I wouldn't even have bothered getting involved if you hadn't started in such a beligerant, absolutist manner.
Matthew
"In the case of mana users they seem to think that anyone with an explanation as to why they don't like Mana is an idiot"
I don't think you are an idiot I just disagree with your theory about Mana. It seems exactly as flawed to me as the previously popular theory that said ferrous metals are bad, Mana is ferrous therefore Mana is bad. ISTM to be logic from the all cows have four legs, that dog has four legs therefore its a cow.
I wouldn't even have bothered getting involved if you hadn't started in such a beligerant, absolutist manner.
Matthew
Posted on: 04 November 2002 by mg
I wonder how long before Cliff is converted to Mana? 
It does seem that the most vociferous opponents of Mana end up being their most ardent supporters (Vuk, Stallion etc)
Like most Mana users I also have my own theory as to how/why they work. I feel all this talk about the musical note the glass produces when tapped is misleading. My view is that this is just to ensure that the glass lies perfectly flat and supported equally by the frame. This then allows the vibration (at whatever frequency) to be fed away from the equipment, out of harms way. Any movement between glass and stand would compromise this ability, hence the 'musical note test'.
My view is probably just as wrong as everyone else's but, as has been brought out, surely it does not matter how it works just that is does.
There has been a lot of talk about neutrality. How can you tell if something is neutral sounding if you do not have access to the original? Products of yesteryear were often described as neutral or 'adding no sound of it's own' but as time has gone on and other products have emerged they too have been shown to have their own sound.
I notice that it is always the same stands that are mentioned in these stand wars. Has anyone heard the Aspekt racks so liked by HiFi plus.
It does seem that the most vociferous opponents of Mana end up being their most ardent supporters (Vuk, Stallion etc)
Like most Mana users I also have my own theory as to how/why they work. I feel all this talk about the musical note the glass produces when tapped is misleading. My view is that this is just to ensure that the glass lies perfectly flat and supported equally by the frame. This then allows the vibration (at whatever frequency) to be fed away from the equipment, out of harms way. Any movement between glass and stand would compromise this ability, hence the 'musical note test'.
My view is probably just as wrong as everyone else's but, as has been brought out, surely it does not matter how it works just that is does.
There has been a lot of talk about neutrality. How can you tell if something is neutral sounding if you do not have access to the original? Products of yesteryear were often described as neutral or 'adding no sound of it's own' but as time has gone on and other products have emerged they too have been shown to have their own sound.
I notice that it is always the same stands that are mentioned in these stand wars. Has anyone heard the Aspekt racks so liked by HiFi plus.
Posted on: 04 November 2002 by Duncan Fullerton
... for those unable to join in the debate!
I bet James McP is pulling his hair out in frustration at not being able to share his $0.02 with us. I pity his poor bloody patients.
Mmmmmpppphhhh!. Sorry James? Did you want to say something?
I bet James McP is pulling his hair out in frustration at not being able to share his $0.02 with us. I pity his poor bloody patients.
Mmmmmpppphhhh!. Sorry James? Did you want to say something?
Posted on: 04 November 2002 by matthewr
>> Oh really !! (?) <<
Well the first thing you did was say "I thought stands were supposed to support equipment. If they sound different, they're shit, period"
Which seems decidedly beligerant and rather absolutist to me.
>> Still waiting for your answers to the quiz I set <<
Sorry I thought it was just a joke. I'll do my best but I warn you I'm not usually very good at quizes.
"1) Which (based on your auditions) is better - Fraim or Mana"
Tricky as I've never even seen let alone heard a Fraim.
"2) Why is the one you have chosen better. Explain with reference to the properties of ringing materials that you claim to have beneficial effects on the equipment being supported."
I haven't chosen one. But then neither have I claimed that ringing materials are good for hi-fi equipment.
"3) Which is the best material for dissipating sound waves of the following (clue: you can get this from a physics A level text book)"
I don't know so if making a stand I'd probably use all of the above materials apart from air (for round earth reasons) and water (for electrical safety reasons).
"4) How would you combine the materials above to make a screen to stop air borne sound from causing a bottle of NitroGlycerince from getting excited to the point of exploding?"
Domestic storage of high explosives is illegal in the UK. But I'm guessing from what you've said that putting it on Base will render it safe.
"5) If a tree falls in the middle of a forest, miles from the nearest human being, does it:
a) make a sound
or
b) Make music"
a). Unless the nearest person subscribed to "Wire" in which case b)
Matthew
Well the first thing you did was say "I thought stands were supposed to support equipment. If they sound different, they're shit, period"
Which seems decidedly beligerant and rather absolutist to me.
>> Still waiting for your answers to the quiz I set <<
Sorry I thought it was just a joke. I'll do my best but I warn you I'm not usually very good at quizes.
"1) Which (based on your auditions) is better - Fraim or Mana"
Tricky as I've never even seen let alone heard a Fraim.
"2) Why is the one you have chosen better. Explain with reference to the properties of ringing materials that you claim to have beneficial effects on the equipment being supported."
I haven't chosen one. But then neither have I claimed that ringing materials are good for hi-fi equipment.
"3) Which is the best material for dissipating sound waves of the following (clue: you can get this from a physics A level text book)"
I don't know so if making a stand I'd probably use all of the above materials apart from air (for round earth reasons) and water (for electrical safety reasons).
"4) How would you combine the materials above to make a screen to stop air borne sound from causing a bottle of NitroGlycerince from getting excited to the point of exploding?"
Domestic storage of high explosives is illegal in the UK. But I'm guessing from what you've said that putting it on Base will render it safe.
"5) If a tree falls in the middle of a forest, miles from the nearest human being, does it:
a) make a sound
or
b) Make music"
a). Unless the nearest person subscribed to "Wire" in which case b)
Matthew
Posted on: 04 November 2002 by Alex S.
Since I've owned both Mana and Base, even simultaneously, I will tell it how I find it.
I like most of what Mana does. It cleans up the signal allowing extra information and detail. It tightens loose bass and sharpens up the treble. It also does soundstage gubbins. However, I do not find it neutral and under the CDS2 it neither helps the tune nor the notes, in my opinion, in my room, in my system. Under the LP12 it works very well although I have mixed feelings as to whether I prefer phase 5 or phase 7 - more of the same is not necessarily what I want.
I like some of what Base does. It is neutral but in standard form it is lifeless. It does not have the dynamics of Mana and doesn't draw you into the music, it presents it in a take it or leave it fashion (which I believe is much improved by the Star Base with its cut-outs and less deadening slabs of MDF).
I have long believed that the CDS2 and its not always level metal feet are not best suited to glass. I've tried the 3M feet and they were simultaneously marginally better and marginally worse, to my ears.
I have tried the laminated Mana boards instead of glass, and, contrary to others' misreading of what I've written, I find they do not work at all. In my experience, It has to be well tuned Mana glass at the top of any Mana stack (and I can bloody well set the stuff up properly).
For about six months now I've been in possession of a prototype Strata Base support platform. This looks like a thicker standard platform with a bigger beam assembly. It is not made of MDF but is a sandwich of different materials. It laughably outperformed a standard platform on a standard Base rack. Nonetheless, I still found standard Base rather dead (doing nothing for the LP12) and fully converted to Mana after the late James McPeake visited (I already had 3 Sound Frames).
I set up the Mana and started to enjoy it. The TT really sang - I wanted to listen to it all the time. I could not say the same for the CDP. I hardly played it, anyone, and I mean anyone, who visited thought there was a problem with it, thought it was under performing. So as well as other musings I thought about what those 3M feet did. Surely they damp the interface between the CDS2 and glass relative to the metal feet on their own. What if I could dampen the sound, improve the note definition and tune, without killing the music stone dead? I tried a laminated board, again, instead of Mana glass, didn't work. I tried a Standard Base platform, throttled the life out of Natalie Merchant and anyone else who ventured near the CDP.
So I tried the Strata Base, presto! Success! Life, vitality, dynamics, all the things I treasure from Mana still in place, but so was all of the notes. I wanted to listen again. The difference is not subtle. Everyone who's heard it has agreed with me (and that's not Flat Tony BTW). One person who came round asked me to try the LP12 (phase 7) with the Strata Base just for fun. Fuck! Exactly the same response. Hugh Masekela's voice on the studio version of Coal Train was fuller, deeper. Since I've tried it I've played about 40 vinyl sides. Not one has disappointed.
So, in summary, well tuned phase 4 Mana (at least) with a Strata Base platform on top of the tuned glass is the way forward for me. Everyone who's heard it agrees.
Alex
I like most of what Mana does. It cleans up the signal allowing extra information and detail. It tightens loose bass and sharpens up the treble. It also does soundstage gubbins. However, I do not find it neutral and under the CDS2 it neither helps the tune nor the notes, in my opinion, in my room, in my system. Under the LP12 it works very well although I have mixed feelings as to whether I prefer phase 5 or phase 7 - more of the same is not necessarily what I want.
I like some of what Base does. It is neutral but in standard form it is lifeless. It does not have the dynamics of Mana and doesn't draw you into the music, it presents it in a take it or leave it fashion (which I believe is much improved by the Star Base with its cut-outs and less deadening slabs of MDF).
I have long believed that the CDS2 and its not always level metal feet are not best suited to glass. I've tried the 3M feet and they were simultaneously marginally better and marginally worse, to my ears.
I have tried the laminated Mana boards instead of glass, and, contrary to others' misreading of what I've written, I find they do not work at all. In my experience, It has to be well tuned Mana glass at the top of any Mana stack (and I can bloody well set the stuff up properly).
For about six months now I've been in possession of a prototype Strata Base support platform. This looks like a thicker standard platform with a bigger beam assembly. It is not made of MDF but is a sandwich of different materials. It laughably outperformed a standard platform on a standard Base rack. Nonetheless, I still found standard Base rather dead (doing nothing for the LP12) and fully converted to Mana after the late James McPeake visited (I already had 3 Sound Frames).
I set up the Mana and started to enjoy it. The TT really sang - I wanted to listen to it all the time. I could not say the same for the CDP. I hardly played it, anyone, and I mean anyone, who visited thought there was a problem with it, thought it was under performing. So as well as other musings I thought about what those 3M feet did. Surely they damp the interface between the CDS2 and glass relative to the metal feet on their own. What if I could dampen the sound, improve the note definition and tune, without killing the music stone dead? I tried a laminated board, again, instead of Mana glass, didn't work. I tried a Standard Base platform, throttled the life out of Natalie Merchant and anyone else who ventured near the CDP.
So I tried the Strata Base, presto! Success! Life, vitality, dynamics, all the things I treasure from Mana still in place, but so was all of the notes. I wanted to listen again. The difference is not subtle. Everyone who's heard it has agreed with me (and that's not Flat Tony BTW). One person who came round asked me to try the LP12 (phase 7) with the Strata Base just for fun. Fuck! Exactly the same response. Hugh Masekela's voice on the studio version of Coal Train was fuller, deeper. Since I've tried it I've played about 40 vinyl sides. Not one has disappointed.
So, in summary, well tuned phase 4 Mana (at least) with a Strata Base platform on top of the tuned glass is the way forward for me. Everyone who's heard it agrees.
Alex
Posted on: 04 November 2002 by Alex S.
That was a careless piece of writing penned after 5 pints of vodka. I haven't a clue why I said it.
I believe in properly tuned Mana glass followed by a Strata Base platform, nothing else. If you don't have a Strata Base platform I believe in the properly tuned Mana glass followed by nothing. Hope this clarifies my position.
Alex
I believe in properly tuned Mana glass followed by a Strata Base platform, nothing else. If you don't have a Strata Base platform I believe in the properly tuned Mana glass followed by nothing. Hope this clarifies my position.
Alex
Posted on: 04 November 2002 by Greg Beatty
...I searched Alex's post for:
"... I think it (CDS-II) is improved by removing a glass interface and substituting it for a Mana board..."
and didn't find it. Wassup?
His post seemed clear to me: For his CD player, he prefers the Strata Base platform to mana glass or a mana board.
- GregB
Insert Witty Signature Line Here
"... I think it (CDS-II) is improved by removing a glass interface and substituting it for a Mana board..."
and didn't find it. Wassup?
His post seemed clear to me: For his CD player, he prefers the Strata Base platform to mana glass or a mana board.
- GregB
Insert Witty Signature Line Here
Posted on: 05 November 2002 by matthewr
The problem with the Townshend's Siesmic Sink theory/blurb is that if you make appropriate changs in terms of materials and design elements it is essentially indistinguishable from everybody else's theory/blurb.
There's also the slight problem that seemingly just about everybody except Cliff and Mick think it makes Naim equipment sound terrible.
Matthew
There's also the slight problem that seemingly just about everybody except Cliff and Mick think it makes Naim equipment sound terrible.
Matthew
Posted on: 05 November 2002 by David Hobbs-Mallyon
It's another theory to add to the list. But then you add this
David
quote:This is all your experience of what the supports sound like, and you've chosen what you prefer, but isn't necessarily related to the theory.
In my experience, this gives Fraim and Mana a characteristically "harder" sound. At the other extreme I find that something like a basic Quadraspire (which uses MDF with little isolation) sounds very soft and muddy.
etc etc......
David