Rega P9/RB900 Limitations
Posted by: Arthur Bye on 21 October 2001
As a double check I've put the Helikon SL on my LP12/Armageddon/Aro/Prefix(k),Hicap and the Helikon works great. A marked difference from the Lydian.
I've heard from two different sources now that this is a limitation of the P9 table or RB900 arm. I'm skeptical of this as the Helikon should at least be able to match the Lydian, which it can't.
Anyone out there with any experience in this? Any idea where the limitations could be coming from? (arm, table, wiring, power supply?)
Yes, I double checked my setup on the P9. I've even put back in place my old Grado Reference along with the Lydian as a double check to see that I wasn't missing anything(they both sound great on the P9). Also switched the power supply to my 52 from the HiCap. I think I've eliminated all other variables and am left with the P9/RB900.
Arthur Bye
Could it possible be a matching problem with the cartridge and the RB900 arm cable that it similar to matching speaker wires to speakers? I remember the varying results of different speaker cables for a specific speaker. Some cartridges might not match well with the TT. I know the P9 isn't considered a high end TT but I think the R900 is considered class A by Seriophile if that means anything.
John
If this were the case it would seem to me that it would show up on the Lyra Lydian as well. They are both ScanTech products and it would seem to me that they would use similar wiring between cartridges.
BTW. I think that Sterophile gave the P9 a "B" rating, but they gave the RB900 an "A" rating.
Arthur Bye
I tried the anti-skate thing and the differences were pretty modest. Not enough of a difference here to explain the problem. I also would think that this would tend to make the stylus wear unevenly. Not an acceptable solution to me.
Shareza:
The Lyra instructions for setting anti-skate say that you should not rely on a test record. When lowering the stylus onto a record you should look for the arm to pull left or right. If you see any pulling action you need to adjust the bias. This works with the P9 as it has a cueing lever. It's very hard to see though. With the Aro, since I don't have a cueing lever yet I have to set it with a test record.
The Lydian has an aluminum casing around the entire cartridge, kind of like a Grado. Not really nude. The Helikon has a hard paper casing around the base of the cartridge. Dire warnings are given about its removal. I don't think the problem is here either.
I'm going to try and resolder my tonearm connections to the Prefix and see if that doesn't make a difference. Perhaps the low output of the Helikon needs a more perfect connection to get the signal through, whereas the higher output cartridges don't suffer the same fate. Seems a stretch, but worth a try.
It also appears that the internal wiring of the RB900 must have a connection inside somewhere. The wiring at the cartridge appears to be different than that at the base of the tonearm. Perhaps the Origin Live rewire would help here as I know its a straight run.
Curious that Frank Abela give the Helikon such a middling review. On the Aro I've found it to be very engaging. Seems to cover all the frequencies quite well and has a wonderful level of detail. It also seems to have great control, especially with the bass. The Aro gives it a nice liquidity in the midrange and there doesn't seem to be any coloration. Very neutral.
I'm not sure that the Prefix is the best match for it as I've noticed some brittleness in the upper frequencies. When I get around to it i'm going to try and get another phono stage for comparison.
What i'm trying to find out here though is if there are any opinions out there about the limitations of the P9/RB900. I've heard that a few people have abandoned the table and kept the arm and wondering what the reasons were. I've also heard that others have upgraded the RB900 wiring and an wondering what the results were with this.
Mostly i'm wondering why a Lydian would sound better that a Helikon on the P9/RB900/Prefix but why the reverse is true with the Aro/LP12/Prefix.
Arthur Bye
quote:
Mostly i'm wondering why a Lydian would sound better that a Helikon on the P9/RB900/Prefix but why the reverse is true with the Aro/LP12/Prefix.
Are you sure its not just a synergy thing? The sonic signatures of the P9 and LP12 for me could not be more different, the LP12 is big, warm and romantic sounding whereas the P9 is lean, clean and really tight. I love 'em both, but I would choose different carts for each.
Tony.
The problem with the synergy thing is that the Grado is big, warm and bloomy and works fine on the RB900.
I'm looking for a smoking gun here. The P9 is a very good TT and it's going to meld better with some cartridges than others. I can understand that. What I have difficulty accepting is that a cartridge can actually sound worse than it's little brother (Lydian) on the same turntable.
On the LP12/Aro the Lydian and the Helikon are essentially similar cartridges. You can tell that there is a family remblance. The Helikon just does every thing better. I've had the same experience with Grados. There is definitely a Grado "sound".
It may be synergy, but it's not an answer i'm comfortable with.
Arthur Bye
quote:
What I have difficulty accepting is that a cartridge can actually sound worse than it's little brother (Lydian) on the same turntable.
Isn't the Helikon a Lydian B replacement?
For what it's worth, I finally had a chance to hear a Helikon (low-output) on a LP12/ARO over the weekend; though it does some things exceptionally well (yes, detail and neutrality, good midrange), I found it to be a bit too much on a 52 / 500 / Quad 989 system (YMMV).
No regrets on the Dynavector XX-2L, though (on an LP12). Perhaps it is a matching thing...
Dave Dever, NANA
quote:
sn't the Helikon a Lydian B replacement?
Dave: The Helikon was a replacement for the Lyra De Capo(DC). I believe the Lydian B (Beta) was a replacment for the standard Lydian.
I can understand how a Helikon may be over the top with a set of Quads. I found the Helikon to be a bit over the top with my Epos. After a while I imagine I would get used to it. If you were listening with a set of Quads you were also probably missing the bass. There's plenty of it and the cartridge has an excellent grip on it as well. I don't thing anyone listening to this cartridge on an Aro/Armageddon wouldever have the familiar complaint about the last octave of bass disappearing.
The Helikon is a completely different cartridge, visually, from the Lydian. All I meant was that cartridges, like speakers, tend to have similarites in the same brand name. Epos, Naim, Sonus Faber and ProAc come to mind. It's pretty easy to recognize the sound of the brand. My experience with cartridges has been simliar. It's not always the case, but more often than not it is.
Arthur Bye
Actually, the 989s have plenty of bass, though not sloppy--great with Compact Disc, but perhaps a bit slim on the analog side.
Of course, we didn't set the cartridge on fire with a hairdryer prior to listening--I'm sure it needed a bit of break-in. As for cartridge families--well, as with the brands you describe, there are tradeoffs in voicing that one might expect to offset other compromises in design or manufacturing at the price point.
Dave Dever, NANA
P.S. If the P9/RB900 combo was absolutely perfect, it (as with the zillion LP12 incarnations) wouldn't need to be re-done or replaced, would it?!
quote:
Originally posted by Vuk Vuksanovic:
Oh dear, I meant to say my old _XX-1L_ in the posting above!!! There is abosulutley no problem with the XX-2: I adore it.Vuk.
I have an Exact on my P9 at the moment and I think the P9 is bettered on some things by my other deck a Pink Triangle Export GTi/SMEIV/Dynavector mkII 10x4
Do you think this is down to the cartridge or the better deck?
Should I try the DV10x4 on the P9 ???
Comments would be appreciated as you are a P9 guru on here having heard many combos etc..
john
I have an Exact on my P9 and have really enjoyed it (although it can set your teeth on edge sometimes with some recordings). The ortofon kontrapunkts are supposed to be a good match for the RB900 and I will give them a listen as well as the new rega MC in the summer as my Exact needs to be replaced.
Some people dislike the sound of rega cartridges, but I have always found that they work well with rega decks/arms (as they should!) and offer great value for money in comparison to the competiton.
quote:
Originally posted by sonofcolin:
as my Exact needs to be replaced.
How do Sumiko's do on the P9's? has it been discussed... I had one on my Tarantella/OL RB250 before I sold it... The lack of lid and the open cartridge were not a good match for fragileness... sound good though... p9 has a lid so ok.
Have you heard of anyone doing the OL Mod to a RB900 ??? The internal wiring etc is superb so it should be pretty good.. the bearings in the arm are better spec I thought? so may be better than OL RB250.
There is also a mk11 Rega Planar 9 out in the UK with an RB1000 arm (polished aluminium! super looking)... the power supply is in a new style amp case... motor is new also (I think).
john
Rest of the deck is pretty much the same (more obese looking IMO)
The origin live re-mod does the re-wire, but I don't know how it sounds compared to an un-mod 900.
maybe you can trade in the 900 for a 1000? Might be worth asking Rega. I know that there would be a lot of interested punters out there (me included).
Sumiko? Never heard them on any deck. I think the dyns are the choice here for most P9 users.
I can't imagine the RB1000 sounding much better.
John
New Rega MC available at the end of the summer. Price between 500-700 (not official).
Sounds like the OL mod could be the way to go.
quote:
Originally posted by sonofcolin:
Rega say that they will not do a trade in on the RB900-1000, but you can buy the RB1000 for GBP998!New Rega MC available at the end of the summer. Price between 500-700 (not official).
Sounds like the OL mod could be the way to go.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by sonofcolin:
OL now do two top arms...
The Silver 250 --> £600
The Silver Taper --> £1000
I read both arm tubes are CNCed out of a solid billet!
The silver taper is a tapered armtube very much like an SME. Check out there web site to confirm spec.
John
john