Not The ProAc Forum But...

I've owned both the 1SC's and the Tablette 2000 signatures with naim gear, but I've never experienced the problem that you describe. In fact, as far as midrange goes, the reason I bought them in the first place was because they were better able to avoid a "honky", "cupped hand" effect better than anything I had heard to date (including my sbl's, which I now use). I really like the way proacs handle midrange. My problem was always a boomy, soggy lower end and rolled off highs. I used the Atlantis stands as well. Are you using the heavy duty four pillar ones, or the cheaper two pillar ones?

Judd

Oh, a few other notes.

I've run these speakers off Naim sources and amps, an LP12 through Naim and non-Naim, and had the speakers set up in four different apartments/townhouses

The "cupped hands" effect is consistent regardless. My setup efforts with these speakers center around trying to reduce this effect.

I'm wondering of the small cabinet size of the 1SC and Tablette help here in comparison to the larger Response 2.

- GregB

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I would like the DBLs, ultimately, however ...
Heard the Allaes today again, and they are really good, like mini-NBLs. Typical Naim clarity and unboxiness, but still too small for my room. They will be very good for the right room, however ...

The speakers are firing from one of the short walls. The large glass doors make firing from the long wall undesirable. The speakers would either have to be in front of the glass doors or near in the corners (almost 20 feet apart).

Thoughts on setup in this situation?

I may replace the speakers if they cannot cope with the larger room. I believe with the right amplification (that is, not my present 10-year old Sony ES receiver) that these speakers can do the job. Don't need earth-shaking volume or bass and the neighbors have l'il kids.

- GregB

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Judd

Along with diminished standing wave issues, long wall allows much more breathing room at the sides corners of the spkrs.

As Juan Zenuff(?) suggested, all this malarkey isn't too relevant with huge rooms or tiny ones; it's the medium size rooms which have the problems.

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Originally posted by Mike Sae:
As Juan Zenuff(?) suggested, all this malarkey isn't too relevant with huge rooms or tiny ones; it's the medium size rooms which have the problems.

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I agree that the room size matters a lot, as well as the speakers used. In my rectangular room, putting the speakers along the long wall will result in the listening position probably only 1.5 meters away after speaker positioning away from the wall, with hell of a lot of bass - not ideal IMHO, unless I listen softly ... The smaller Allaes would probably be ideal, flush against the wall ... but with bigger Proacs, no way ...

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"from a garbage can" effect

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Yes - that's it exactly. Putting spikes under the speakers and such helps reduce the affected frequency range, but it still pops up - on certain vocals especially.

Ross:

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I understand exactly what you mean by the boxy honking effect - the 2S had the same problem. I don't think there is a cure for this short of replacing them.

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Oddly, this is what I was kindof wanting to hear. I've been buggering around with these speakers for 3 years now and I've had quite a few people tell me that the ProAcs simply do not have a problem with the midrange - "Quad like" is a phrase I have heard/read several times. This may be true of other models, but the 2 is doomed me thinx.

And I believe the 2's' is also no longer in production.

- Greg

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Sorry Greg but can't help you on this... I've heard many speakers with many systems, and I never found the midrange to be clear and transparent as the Resp. 2 I own. Boxy ? Maybe your cables or connections...

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...and just when I thought I had it figured out!!!

I've used NACA5 and am now using solid-core copper cable (cheap wire from Home Depot - cleaner sounding than the stranded stuff but stiff to work with). The NACA5 was setup by my dealer using the standard NAIM connectors. I tried hooking the wires to the bass/mid connector and the treble connector. I also tried replacing the standard ProAc connecting pins with silver, stranded copper, and now solid copper. These changes alter the sound of the speaker, but the essential honk remains.

And understand that it is not heard all the time. Only when there is action around a particular frequency range. Some vocals sound just fine but others...

- Greg

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How do you have your ProAcs setup? Which stands, cables, connectors, and amps are you using? I checked your profile but no indications there.

- GregB

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I had the 1.5's and the 2000 sigs in my own house on a demo for about a week. I preferred the 2000 sigs (and ultimatley bought them) to the 1.5's for precicely the reasons you suggest. The 1.5, though it sounded very good) was a bit too polite compared to the tab 2000 sigs. The 1.5 bass is boomier (but lower), and the sound a "bit" more refined. But the 2000 sigs just had more boogie, more snap and simply were more fun to listen to than the 1.5 (despite being $1300 cheaper).

I would not have considered demo-ing the 2000 sigs vs. the 1.5's had I not found proac dealers who, if puched, will admit that they prefer the 2000 sigs to the 1.5 (a rather prominant Chicagoland dealer admitted as much to me on the phone). so. . . .

I have never owned the 50 sigs, but i am told the 2000 give up a tiny tiny tiny bit of speed in favor of sounding bigger and more fleched out than the 50 sigs.

I have Naim speakers now, which better the proacs in terms of bass quality and treble extension, but don't quite do the holographic wrap around imaging and the seductive midrange the proacs did.

Judd

Have you tightened your drivers lately? If not, take care with the tweeter plate.

Clutching at straws,

Mike S

A few things...

First, he doesn't believe that the Response 2 and Naim are a good match. He says the other ProAc speakers and the new speakers in particular do better, but he never liked the pairing that I had (maybe why I didn't get along with my Naim kit?).

Second, he said the stands MUST be filled with sand or, if you want, a mix of sand and lead. My stands are 1/3 filled or so with lead but empty otherwise. He said fill 'em to stop the stands ringing. He doesn't like the lead as he believes that the stands/sand are heavy enough as it is and that there is the risk of using too much lead and dulling things.

Next, nothing but the blu-tak between the speakers and stands will do. He was strongly against using spikes, coins, etc. between the stands and the speakers.

He also believes that my system then (with the Naim CD3/72/hi/140) and certainly now (with an interim Sony receiver and Panasonic DVD player) more than qualifies as a mullet system (hey, these are $3,400 speakers we're talking about here) and he didn't like my cabling. He said the NACA5 is fine but the cheapie solidcore copper stuff I have now is a no-no. He also said these speakers like bi-wiring.

Finally (whew!), the driver screws should be finger tight and maybe nip with a tool - definitely NOT "Linn tight".

He referred me to Audio Excellence in Owings Mills, MD. So I may cart my speakers over there if they are willing and see how things sound in comparison.

- GregB

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He referred me to Audio Excellence in Owings Mills, MD. So I may cart my speakers over there

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Welcome back to Witch Mountain. Your stint as a realperson lasted um, one year (not bad).

Can I get dibbs on your Sony, as I need an amp for the bathroom system.

I probably missed it--what happened to the AE1s? Last I can recall you were raving about them (understandably, from my recollection of hearing them years ago). Just curious.

Cheers,

Bob

cheers

Again, I think I can be of some help to you. I had the neat Petites on Loan for about a week in my house and compared them to the 2000 sigs and the spica TC-50's.

I put about 100 hours on the them from new, but could not get them to open up. In particular, they simply did not have the open midrange that the proacs did. But more than that, the Neat's (again, in the context of my system and only having about a 100 hours on them) had a kind of hardened "stark" sound to their midrange, which made them sound grey and tonally really really dark (and greyish, you know). The proacs may be accused of many things, but they have a wonderfully full palette of colors with which to paint. The Neats were not as tonally vibrant (nor are the sbl's, for that matter), and accordingly I just thought they were too much of a departure for me.

That said, the neats had a tighter bass presentation, which was both lively and precise. But, again, it had less color (in the good sense) than the proacs did, and therefore tended to make recordings sound more alike rather than they would otherwise be. The proacs had deaper (but boomier) bass. Neither speaker's bass can hold a candle to what the sbl's do in that area though.

But you don't need my ramblings, as you can listen to them yourself and decide.

Judd

The Tab 50 Sig is the only ProAc I have ever heard that I like, and whilst it shares the typical ProAc trait of "nice" top and mid but woolly bass, the bass is definitely far more agile and defined than any bigger ProAc. In the right room they are a pretty decent speaker, especially on jazz, classical, and other acoustic stuff. The problem IMHO is that they can't do aggressive - Sonic Youth, Pixies, Napalm Death type stuff simply does not work, it sounds gentle!

The Tabs proved quite hard to site once I moved back up north, the listening room of the flat I moved into, whilst being way bigger than the one I had used them in previously just did not work. They sounded small, flat, and had a bloody awful mid bass boom wherever I stuck them in the room, I ditched them and landed another pair of Kans. No contest, the Kans took them to the cleaners. The thing that really surprised me was the Kans sounded no smaller at the levels that I listen at, though the ProAcs would definitely go much louder. The Kans play music radically better.

The interesting thing is to compare these speakers tonally, the Tabs are what most hi-fi geeks consider neutral and the Kans are what many consider coloured - I disagree, the ProAcs impart a smoothness to the sound and just can't do either a electric guitar or electric bass right at all - IMHO that is two very serious tonal wrongs. The Kan is very bass light unless you get them in exactly the right room (I have only managed this once, and not with my current room), but the bass roll off is even and very well behaved, the treble is very clean and well behaved, this combination has the effect of pushing the mid out and perhaps making it over prominent. The Kan does electric guitar remarkably well, in fact it does all guitars incredibly well from the gentle acoustic of Kings of convenience through Kenny Burrell to Sonic Youth. Comparing them on acoustic music the Kan gets the leading edge attack to a plucked string or the rasp of the reed in a sax, the ProAcs round things off and make them IMHO too tranquil and "nice". IMHO the ProAcs are actually more coloured as they impart a sort of syrupy laziness to the sound. The ProAcs image in a round earth free space way, the Kans in a flat earth 'its over there' kind of way like say SBLs, you pays your money and makes your choice - this is an area I loose no sleep over.

Tony.

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Welcome back to Witch Mountain. Your stint as a realperson lasted um, one year (not bad).

Can I get dibbs on your Sony, as I need an amp for the bathroom system.

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Not sure I'm back to climbing the hi-fi ladder just yet. I will try the setup tips recommended by Richard Gerberg (sand, blutak, biwiring) but I doubt I will get different kit in the belief that this will stop the speakers from honking. I'm holding on to the belief (until proven otherwise by a convincing dem) that what I don't like about the sound is down to the speakers. Yes - I'm sure they would sing mucho better on the end of a CDSII /52/250, but I believe that the resonances would still be there.

And the Sony is not for sale. The new townhouse has TWO largish rooms that need hi-fi so the Sony will be doing duty somewhere.

If the setup tips do not fix the problem with the ProAcs, I'm not sure what I will do. Probably sell off the ProAcs and start fresh.

Maybe a pair of maggies for me? SBLs perhaps?

- GregB

Insert Witty Signature Line Here

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If the setup tips do not fix the problem with the ProAcs, I'm not sure what I will do. Probably sell off the ProAcs and start fresh.

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Greg, this is exactly what I would do if I were you. Dump the ProAcs, get a Nait and a nice pair of pretty efficient speakers, say Intro 2s, and just enjoy your LP12. The more I farted about with hi-fi the more I believe the answer is a great source fed into a good little amp and speakers. Just set it up well and enjoy.

Tony.

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The problem IMHO is that they can't do aggressive - Sonic Youth, Pixies, Napalm Death type stuff

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Napalm Death? Cripes, is there anything you don't listen to? Napalm Death for me was one of those bands I had to pretend to like in high school so I could be hardcore.

Have you heard their cover of Nazi Punks F*** Off? Quite good, actually.

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Napalm Death? Cripes, is there anything you don't listen to? Napalm Death for me was one of those bands I had to pretend to like in high school so I could be hardcore.

Have you heard their cover of Nazi Punks F*** Off? Quite good, actually.

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I have got the first album, the excellent Peel sessions album, and the 1 second single that came with the Earache Records Grind Crusher compilation. Not everyday listening admittedly, but good clean fun nonetheless.

I remember seeing them live at the height of their success, it was hysterical. Stage diving was all the craze at the time, and as Napalm Death songs lasted only a few seconds you heard the count-in 'click click click click followed by a couple of seconds of 'KarrrrrunggggAAAAAARRRGGGGGGGEH!' then there was silence and a load or feet sticking up at the front of the audience. Quality stuff.

Can't recall the Nazi Punks cover, will have a look when I get home.

Tony.

In your oppinion, what are the closest Kan alternatives that exist on the market (buying new)? Your point of view on Dynaudio?

Thanks.

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In your oppinion, what are the closest Kan alternatives that exist on the market (buying new)? Your point of view on Dynaudio?

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I think Neat Petites, definitely not Dynaudios. The Neats have really impressed me when ever I have heard them, they have a lot of Kan traits (fast, tight, tuneful, fun), but are probably much better balanced tonally. I have never used a pair at home (yet!), so there are plenty of questions left unanswered, especially in the area of efficiency / amp requirement. Kans work quite happily with my 20wpc Nait 2, I am not convinced the Neats would. Royds deserve serious attention too.

To my mind Dynaudios are a completely different thing, perhaps better looked at as a slightly better ProAc rather than a worse Kan. The Dynaudios use the reflex port as a method for boosting the bottom end, and IMHO this is audible in a negative way, the Neats use their port just to reduce pressure in the cabinet, not for boost. As such the Neats seem to play bass pretty much like a sealed box speaker. Do a search on my name plus 'port' to see how much I love bass reflex designs! I am not a massive Dynaudio fan at all.

Tony.