Beethoven, Furt****ler, Karajan & Whizzkid a heady concoction.

Beethoven over a drum and bass backing track, hmmmm, a heady concoction indeed!

So many conductors have recorded Beethoven that I think you will find it's not hard to find great performances of his music. In my opinion, the B symph's are almost performance proof. I remember my first classical 'experience' being Eugene Jochum's Beethoven seventh ( a Philips cassette, if I remember correctly) with the Concertgebouw, a recording, along with the rest of his cycle I would have no trouble recommending. I also remember Pierre Monteux's Eroica, quite good, on Decca with the Vienna philharmonic.


This may sound a bit contentious but I find that perhaps the greatest of all Beethoven conductors is an American. Leonard Bernstein. No need to go into specifics but anyone who can make a thrilling experience out of the Missa Solemnis (dreadful piece, IMHO) has to be a frigging genius. I would commend you to either (DG or Sony) of his sets. You might also want to check out Klemperer''s mono 3, worth its weight in silver oxide...ha ha

Noyes

Hi
Just one suggestion for starters:
Carlos Kleiber conducting the Vienna Philharmonic in Beethoven symphonies 5 and 7 on DG.
cheers

quote:

Originally posted by Chillkram:
Beethoven over a drum and bass backing track, hmmmm, a heady concoction indeed!

Mark looky HERE. The two are more closely linked than you might think.



Dean..

Dear Dean,

Lots of good stuff in here, especially if you discount anything I might have written.

Tam's most recent version of the "Classical Threads ..." thread.

ATB from George

PS: I expect that you may have seen the "Karajan" thread current, and a little further down the page. It is tangentially related.

Dear Dean,

I suggest you do take a look at the threads worth reading (there's a fair bit of Beethoven in there) which I've now bumped to the top.

Furtwangler's 9th has long been one of my favourites - I don't know if you have the same performance (he recorded it several times) but mine is from the reopening of the Bayreuth festival in 1951.

There's a lot of Furtwangler Beethoven around, however it is of variable quality. For example, there is a complete set of the symphonies conducted by him on EMI. It contains that Bayreuth 9th, but also a number of studio recordings with the Vienna Philharmonic which are much less engaging. The one or two live readings (which he didn't complete in the studio prior to his death) are taken from terrible quality radio broadcasts. As a rule, to these ears, at any rate, Furtwangler live was far superior to Furtwangler in the studio (there are exceptions, such as his recording of Tristan and Isolde, but this is probably not getting started material).



Aside from that 9th, the Furtwangler Beethoven recordings to seek out are his 1944 3rd (Eroica) symphony with the Vienna Philharmonic, recorded under live conditions. There is also this box of his live recordings with the Berlin Philharmonic between 1942 and 1944 which contains good readings of the 4th, 5th and 7th symphonies, the Coriolan Overture, the most moving reading of the violin concerto I have ever heard and a stunning Schubert 9th symphony (and various other works). There is, however, a caveat that these recordings were made at the height of the third Reich and some people find them distasteful as a result. The recordings are remarkably find for their age, and there is also a fine second box (though it contains no Beethoven). There are two other boxes of live recordings that contain some Beethoven:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Furtw%C3%A4ngler-Live-Recording...id=1208994013&sr=1-3

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Furtw%C3%A4ngler-50th-anniversa...id=1208994357&sr=1-1





But what of other Beethoven conductors. For a completely different perspective you might turn to the more modern (and historically informed) school. And where better to look that the great Charles Mackerras. He has recorded the symphonies twice, once for EMI's classics for pleasure and more recently with the Scottish Chamber Orchestra (the Philharmonia for the 9th) for Hyperion (do not buy this second set at Amazon who have it priced nearly 50% about the RRP). Musically the second set is finer (you can read my thoughts on the concerts it derives from here. However, Hyperion did not do Sir Charles proud in the recording which is harsh and lacks detail, particular the wind parts which were so intricate in concert. The EMI set is insanely cheap - at under £15 for 5 discs of stunning music, stunningly played you can't go far wrong.




Leonard Bernstein has been mentioned. He has recorded all the symphonies twice, once in the 60s with the New York Philharmonic (on Sony) and again with the Vienna Philharmonic on DG. I find this later set more satisfying (it is billed as live, though it was so patched in the studio that the label is misleading). His NY Eroica is special though and comes with a fascinating illustrated talk. His final recording of the 9th, performed in Berlin on Boxing Day in the wake of the fall of the Berlin Wall with an orchestra and soloists sourced from around the world, in which the ode to joy becomes the ode to freedom is also worth hearing.


Otto Klemperer was a fine Beethoven conductor (and I urge you to look at George's thread on the subject). However, I would steer clear of the EMI box of the Beethoven symphonies where he conducts the Philharmonia. They are late in his career and rather stodgy. There are live recordings (discussed in George's thread) but I have yet to hear them. What I have heard is his stunning live (mono) recording of Beethoven's opera Fidelio which is well worth hearing.




Colin Davis's recordings with the wonderful Staastkapelle Dresden are said to be in the Klemperer mould. Superbly recorded and played, I think these are rather special. I find I cannot listen to a whole disc in one go, I'm so drained by each work (the light, brief 8th is positively Mahlerian in scale) that I have to stop and take it in. Along with the Mackerras box, this is one of the most satisfying I own.





Then there is Eugen Jochum. He recorded no fewer than three complete cycles: in the 50s with the Berlin Philharmonic and Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra (the first complete cycle on DG), in the 60s with the Concertgebouw for Philips and in the 70s with the LSO for EMI. All three sets are now available (though the final one is tough to track down). The LSO 9th is special (though poorly recorded) and the 3rd rivals Furtwangler, but the set is tricky to track down and the rest, though fine, is less successful. I haven't worked my way through the Concertgebouw set yet, but so far it hasn't displaced the earliest one in my affections, which remains one of the most consistently satisfying I know on disc.




Lastly, for the symphonies, there is Donald Runnicles. I won't discuss it in detail, since I did so on this thread (at the bottom) and there's very little I would add, except to say that it can be had for just £2.25 on the Amazon market place. You can't really go wrong!


Beyond the symphonies are the wonderful piano concertos - Solomon's recordings on Testament are magnificent, as are Leon Fleisher's with Szell and the Cleveland Orchestra, similarly Wilhelm Kempff (who is peerless in the 4th concerto). The piano sonatas are also well worth hearing, I'd suggest either Kempff, or Paul Lewis's recent recordings. Finally, there is this complete set of the string quartets from the Budapest quartet. I'll let Todd explain why you should buy it.


Happy collecting.



regards, Tam

Hi all,


Thanks for the suggestions guys, I will seek them out and if you're unlucky I might post my thoughts.


Tam,


Funnily today I think I purchased one of the Otto Klemperer Symphonies you mentioned Symphony No.3 played by the Philharmonia in 1957. If it is the one I feel I can hear what you mean by stodgy you cannot hear clearly into the mix like you can on the Furtwangler CD or on second thoughts do you mean the playing? But of course this is all new to me so the music is paramount and I will not let analysis of the recording spoil the performance and of course this can act as a reference to other recordings of the same piece. Also the recording of Furtwanglers Beethoven Symphony No.9 is the one you mention and I will read the threads you have listed.

Another question who are the rising stars of the modern Classical scene as regards conducting?



Dean..

quote:

Originally posted by Whizzkid:
Funnily today I think I purchased one of the Otto Klemperer Symphonies you mentioned Symphony No.3 played by the Philharmonia in 1957. If it is the one I feel I can hear what you mean by stodgy you cannot hear clearly into the mix like you can on the Furtwangler CD or on second thoughts do you mean the playing? But of course this is all new to me so the music is paramount and I will not let analysis of the recording spoil the performance and of course this can act as a reference to other recordings of the same piece.

I did mean in terms of performance rather than recording (I can't remember off the top of my head what that's like). But I sometimes think I'm a little too picky about these things.

quote:

Another question who are the rising stars of the modern Classical scene as regards conducting?

Depends on how you define rising stars. He's fairly established these days, but I still don't think Donald Runnicles is as big a name as he should be, or will be in 20 years or so (but he's now over 50, so probably wouldn't merit inclusion in a magazine survey of rising stars). Sakari Oramo who is in charge of the CBSO (who until the end of this season) and the Finnish Radio Symphony Orchestra has impressed me greatly in concert - he played a stunningly energetic Bruckner 1st symphony at a concert here in 2006 and I have sung the praises of his Sibelius recordings on another thread.

Daniel Harding was a prodigy of both Simon Rattle and Claudio Abbado. I first came across him in his penultimate concert with the German Bremen Deutsche Khammerphilharmonie when they gave a thrilling performance of Beethoven's 7th symphony. He is now in charge of the Mahler Chamber Orchestra (an off-shoot of the astonishingly talented Gustav Mahler Youth Orchestra, which draws its players from western Europe and the former soviet block - it was original conceived in the 80s as a means of fostering co-operation). He also has a guest conductor spot with the London Symphony Orchestra.

I'm very fond of Marin Alsop. She has been in charge of the Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra, until quite recently, and is now off to Baltimore.

Edward Gardiner, who is music director at English National Opera has also done some very impressive things. And Ilan Volkov, who until the end of next year, is in charge of the BBC Scottish Symphony are also very good.

A lot of people would put Gustavo Dudamel on the list, but none of the recordings I have heard from him are terribly impressive.

Thomas Ades is a talented young composer and is also (this is his last year) director of the Aldeburgh festival. He's done a fair bit of conducting in that role (I've heard a fine Beethoven 4, Tchaikovsky 6 and he conducted a superb performance of his newish violin concerto at last year's Edinburgh festival). One of the reasons he seems to be giving up Aldeburgh is he's more and more in demand as a conductor: he'd doing a Prom with the CBSO and some Stravinsky at the Royal Opera House in the coming months.


regards, Tam

Tam,

Thanks for that I'll use it as reference for future buys.

Yesterday I decided I'd like to try some more recent performances of Beethoven so purchased the LSO playing the 5th & 1st symphonies (2006) on there own label and The first installment of the complete works for solo piano on BIS (2004) and enjoyed the music greatly. The thing with these pieces of music is that they have be picked on by so many TV shows and adverts over the years that I am surprisingly familiar with certain passages, but of course I'm now hearing them on a quality system so it feels a lot like I am listening to them properly now they are in context of the whole piece.



Dean..

I have to say I found the Haitink/LSO recordings a little bit of a letdown (however, as noted above, I am overly picky, and it is also worth noting that a lot of people have enjoyed them much more than I have). But their disc of 4&8 is one of the very finest Beethoven recordings I have heard in recent years.

I don't know what your feelings are on MP3 downloads, but if you use emusic, both the Haitink recordings and Osmo Vanska's with the Minnesota orchestra can be had very cheaply (since each disc tends to have about 8 tracks you can get 3 and half for the monthly fee - and if you take advantage of their 25 free tracks introductory offer you're laughing).


regards, Tam

Funnily I used to use E-Music about 5 years ago its use got me back into listening to music and lead me to buy a new HiFi system (Cd5i, Nait5i, AVI Neutron IV) at that time it was unlimited downloads though I left shortly after they were bought out and changed to limited downloads, I've also had the introductory offer. Since acquiring a quality setup I have mucked about with MP3 and really cannot get on with it and with access to lots of records shops living and working in London you can usually get most Cd/Sacd's of anything you want S/H or new so I choose to go down the physical media route. The LSO disc cost me £6 from HMV Oxford St and CD's only 6/7/8 quid on their website.

That HMV has a fantastic Classical section and CD/SACD's range from £5 to £15 which is great for me though I spent over half an hour just choosing 2 CD's from the huge Beethoven section (I thought I might as well check out my local Orchestra playing at my local venue the Barbican ).

Thanks for the info though Tam, also I will have to reserve ultimate judgment on any performance, over that I enjoyed the LSO CD, mainly because I will not have a clue what I'm talking about .



Dean..

quote:

Originally posted by Whizzkid:
(I thought I might as well check out my local Orchestra playing at my local venue the Barbican ).

You certainly should. The acoustic isn't ideal, but they're a very fine band indeed. The Philharmonia, who play at the Festival Hall are well worth checking out too (particularly when Mackerras joins them). Actually, I know people nearby I can stay with easily, I'm going to be going to some LSO concerts next season. In Particular the Verdi Requiem in January should be good. Daniel Harding plays with them fairly often too.

See here for information on the 2008/9 seasons for The LSO and The Philharmonia.

quote:

I will have to reserve ultimate judgment on any performance, over that I enjoyed the LSO CD

At the end of the day, that's all that matters.


regards, Tam

quote:

Originally posted by Jeremy Marchant:
Hi
Just one suggestion for starters:
Carlos Kleiber conducting the Vienna Philharmonic in Beethoven symphonies 5 and 7 on DG.
cheers

IMHO, these performances are over-rated. The Fifth is good but not outstanding and the Seventh is routine. The recording is also second-rate.

However it has hundreds of fans so give it a listen. Then try Klemperer or Jochum or Davis.

I've always been very fond of the Kleiber (and I think his father, Erich, is also very good, though except of his Figaro, only in mono sound), however it recently got picked for the 5th in Radio 3's Building a Library. In some of the responses to that someone pointed out something I've never noticed before: namely that the edit between the 3rd and 4th movements appears to have been botched.

regards, Tam

quote:

Originally posted by Tam:

quote:

Originally posted by Whizzkid:
(I thought I might as well check out my local Orchestra playing at my local venue the Barbican ).

You certainly should. The acoustic isn't ideal, but they're a very fine band indeed. The Philharmonia, who play at the Festival Hall are well worth checking out too (particularly when Mackerras joins them). Actually, I know people nearby I can stay with easily, I'm going to be going to some LSO concerts next season. In Particular the Verdi Requiem in January should be good. Daniel Harding plays with them fairly often too.

See here for information on the 2008/9 seasons for The LSO and The Philharmonia.

quote:

I will have to reserve ultimate judgment on any performance, over that I enjoyed the LSO CD

At the end of the day, that's all that matters.


regards, Tam

Tam,


I actually meant by buying an LSO CD , but of course checking out whats happening live at the Barbican and Royal Festival Hall is the next logical next step seeing as I live near both venue's. Hearing live un-amplified music is something I have only done in small doses because coming from an electronic music background a DJ is the musician and vinyl is his instrument. I'll have a look at both those links.


Just bought the second installment of Beethoven's complete solo piano works on BIS and the pianist is playing on a period Fortepiano to give the music extra authenticity, is this an unusual approach to the works? I am rather enjoying them though.



Dean..

Dear Dean,

I hope this was not a five day wonder. Let me a recomend an even more significant traversal of the Choral Symphony in a recording, far better balanced and where not one detail escapes the [BBC] microphone, which posseses a most faithful response to the score [in terms of playing what was written, without Wagner's spurious interventions] and a drive and sprituality that is so much nearer to the revolutionary aspect that Beethoven spent a lifetime espousing. I mean the live recording done in the Royal Festival Hall in 1961 with the Philharmonia under Klemperer on Testament 1332.

George