Deutsche grammophon
Posted by: Voltaire on 17 May 2009
I have recently decided to invest in some classical vinyl. Part of my interest is that there are two or three local shops that have a vast array of classical on vinyl for silly money but I also want to expand my classical library.
My question is, is the Deutsche grammophon label generally a mark of a quality recording worth owning? I know it's a bit of a vague question but when I started buying jazz decades ago (before forums), I only bought Verve till I discovered the artists that I did or didn't like and I could then buy from other labels. It was a way into a genre I was new too and I'm hoping that DG might offer the same starting point in the classical world?
Gordon
My question is, is the Deutsche grammophon label generally a mark of a quality recording worth owning? I know it's a bit of a vague question but when I started buying jazz decades ago (before forums), I only bought Verve till I discovered the artists that I did or didn't like and I could then buy from other labels. It was a way into a genre I was new too and I'm hoping that DG might offer the same starting point in the classical world?
Gordon
Posted on: 24 May 2009 by soundsreal
on a final note-- I thought that was happening due to my recent table upgrade, hmmm, I may have been hoodwinked...:-)
Must be nice to have all those scores, although I wouldn't want to be reading one when listening to Mahler, I often need my eyes closed for that.
Must be nice to have all those scores, although I wouldn't want to be reading one when listening to Mahler, I often need my eyes closed for that.
Posted on: 24 May 2009 by mikeeschman
quote:Originally posted by soundsreal:
on a final note-- I thought that was happening due to my recent table upgrade, hmmm, I may have been hoodwinked...:-)
All my musician friends swear intonation and rhythm have improved markedly over the past five decades. My record/cd collection seems to confirm this.
Posted on: 25 May 2009 by soundsreal
Perplexed.....so, are you saying that in Toscanini's time his orchestra played out of tune and couldn't keep a beat? Where do you get your info? Could someone else chime in here please?
Mike, I think I understand what you're trying to say here, yet I have to disagree. I'm going to put it to several music scholars and professionals I know and see what they have to say on the matter, and I'll let you know.
It might be useful if you could give one example of this for a starting point.
Take care
Mike, I think I understand what you're trying to say here, yet I have to disagree. I'm going to put it to several music scholars and professionals I know and see what they have to say on the matter, and I'll let you know.
It might be useful if you could give one example of this for a starting point.
Take care
Posted on: 25 May 2009 by mikeeschman
quote:Originally posted by soundsreal:
Perplexed.....so, are you saying that in Toscanini's time his orchestra played out of tune and couldn't keep a beat?
>>>>>I have Toscanini/NBC recordings where the orchestra is out of tune, or the meter slips a bit (i mean more than once or twice - for example Tchaikovsky' "Manfred Symphony" with the NBC). In fact, for a while I took trumpet lessons with Ray Crisera, who played under Toscanini in the NBC (he's the most beautiful trumpet player I have heard to date).
So I'm not saying that players from days past weren't great players, they were.
But standards have tightened up in the past 20 or so years, and other things have changed as well. Here's a specific example : the trumpets available today play more in tune than any trumpets ever made. Where a player thirty years ago might have had to "lip" an E into tune, today he would likely be playing on an instrument that sounded the E in tune on its own. A note that is "lipped" into place does not resonate as cleanly as a note that sounds in tune on its own. Having that sort of instrument changes everything for the player, as far as his ability to shape phrases.
Maybe more to the point : I have the Toscanini/NBC Brahms symphonies, Jochum/Berlin and a set by Abbado/Berlin. Abbado/Berlin do a better job than either of the others in maintaining the beat and preserving the underlying rhythmic tension. There is rhythmic tension galore in all three recordings. But in the Abbado/Berlin it has a refinement and a consistency that extends into the interior spaces of every subdivision of the beat, and that consistency contains and illuminates every movement, providing it with context.
Where do you get your info?
>>>>>Talking with local musicians and listening.
Could someone else chime in here please?
>>>>>Let's compare recordings :-)
Mike, I think I understand what you're trying to say here, yet I have to disagree. I'm going to put it to several music scholars and professionals I know and see what they have to say on the matter, and I'll let you know.
>>>>>if you disagree, don't bother your friends. But if you're not sure :-)
here's my basic proposition :
Our best days are not behind us, we are living them. (About classical music).
Students have learned their lessons, reflected and expanded the envelope.
It might be useful if you could give one example of this for a starting point.
>>>>>well i hope these few notes will do it.
i hope people respond, particularly with recordings recommended. that would have real entertainment value.
Take care
Posted on: 25 May 2009 by soundsreal
Good, now we're getting somewhere.
As for the trumpet, I'm aware of that and totally concur. I've known many trumpet players, quite the lot you are!
For the Toscanini, perhaps we're talking recording quality here?
I don't believe our best totally lies in the past, there is current greatness to be sure, but the now and the future are becoming somewhat bleak, for recording studios are closing, contracts ending, funding evaporating, and overall interest declining.
Sister E and George, what say you?
As for the trumpet, I'm aware of that and totally concur. I've known many trumpet players, quite the lot you are!
For the Toscanini, perhaps we're talking recording quality here?
I don't believe our best totally lies in the past, there is current greatness to be sure, but the now and the future are becoming somewhat bleak, for recording studios are closing, contracts ending, funding evaporating, and overall interest declining.
Sister E and George, what say you?
Posted on: 26 May 2009 by mikeeschman
quote:Originally posted by soundsreal:
Good, now we're getting somewhere.
As for the trumpet, I'm aware of that and totally concur. I've known many trumpet players, quite the lot you are!
For the Toscanini, perhaps we're talking recording quality here?
I don't believe our best totally lies in the past, there is current greatness to be sure, but the now and the future are becoming somewhat bleak, for recording studios are closing, contracts ending, funding evaporating, and overall interest declining.
Sister E and George, what say you?
For the Toscanini part, we're not talking about recording quality, we're talking about playing flat and missing entrances.
As far as the bleakness of the musical landscape goes, i too fear that we may just be coming off a peak and headed into the valley.
But orchestras in particular are flying high at the moment.
I've noticed that sometimes, just before they fall off the earth, things reach a high level of perfection. Hope that doesn't happen now.
Posted on: 26 May 2009 by Sister E.
quote:Originally posted by Jeremy Marchant:
Philips can seem a bit dull, but a great roster of reliable artists (Alfred Brendel, Colin Davis, Quartetto Italiano, Beaux Arts Trio etc).
Beaux Arts and Quartetto "reliable"? Surely you can be a bit more complimentary than that.Arguably two of the greatest chamber ensembles of the latter half of the 20th century. And what about Claudio Arrau and Haitink amongst the Philips artists ? Reliable?
Posted on: 26 May 2009 by u5227470736789439
Faint praise IMO ...
But one man's relaible is another man's inspired so it is not so serious really.
ATB from George
But one man's relaible is another man's inspired so it is not so serious really.
ATB from George
Posted on: 26 May 2009 by Sister E.
Yeah...like Susan Boyle.
Sister xx
Sister xx
Posted on: 26 May 2009 by Jeremy Marchant
quote:Originally posted by Sister E.:
Beaux Arts and Quartetto "reliable"? Surely you can be a bit more complimentary than that.Arguably two of the greatest chamber ensembles of the latter half of the 20th century. And what about Claudio Arrau and Haitink amongst the Philips artists ? Reliable?
Yes I can. The point of the post was not to assess the artists, but to reassure the questioner that he could buy with confidence.
Yes, of course I would add Haitink and Arrau - again the point is not to make a long list but to reassure the questioner this was a reliable label. Maybe the adjective got attached to the wrong noun.
Posted on: 26 May 2009 by u5227470736789439
Reliable purchase, due to excellent artists, and first rate recordings ...
That makes sense now ...
ATB from George
That makes sense now ...
ATB from George
Posted on: 26 May 2009 by mikeeschman
quote:Originally posted by soundsreal:
I'm going to put it to several music scholars and professionals I know and see what they have to say on the matter, and I'll let you know.
I hope you keep this promise.
Hope in the future of the classics. Exactly who buys into it?
Posted on: 30 May 2009 by mudwolf
My friends and I have noticed the LA Phil has hired many new players under Salonen and the orchestra is decidedly young, but it seems to be a tight sound, not a round and full sound of lets say Chicago. Tho Thurs night we had Eschenbach conduct Mozart and Bruckner's 7th. Wow what a performance for the Bruckner. The 2nd slow movement had a lot of Wagner in it. I preferred to close my eyes and not be distracted by visuals at certain moments.
Later driving home John told us the lead in the horn section died about 2 weeks ago from heart attack at 47, a great loss at a young age, he had been hand picking the new players. We also have a new Timpani player, he brought his own to the competition and better than what the Phil had. That must have been expensive, but got him the position.
We also talked about the increase of young concert goers, They don't have the same dress code as older but at least they're coming. John had talked to a visitor and they'd exclaimed about the amount of new music/younger crowd and said they'd only dreamed about what we had here.
Later driving home John told us the lead in the horn section died about 2 weeks ago from heart attack at 47, a great loss at a young age, he had been hand picking the new players. We also have a new Timpani player, he brought his own to the competition and better than what the Phil had. That must have been expensive, but got him the position.
We also talked about the increase of young concert goers, They don't have the same dress code as older but at least they're coming. John had talked to a visitor and they'd exclaimed about the amount of new music/younger crowd and said they'd only dreamed about what we had here.
Posted on: 30 May 2009 by mikeeschman
quote:Originally posted by mudwolf:
My friends and I have noticed the LA Phil has hired many new players under Salonen and the orchestra is decidedly young, but it seems to be a tight sound, not a round and full sound of lets say Chicago. Tho Thurs night we had Eschenbach conduct Mozart and Bruckner's 7th. Wow what a performance for the Bruckner. The 2nd slow movement had a lot of Wagner in it. I preferred to close my eyes and not be distracted by visuals at certain moments.
Later driving home John told us the lead in the horn section died about 2 weeks ago from heart attack at 47, a great loss at a young age, he had been hand picking the new players. We also have a new Timpani player, he brought his own to the competition and better than what the Phil had. That must have been expensive, but got him the position.
We also talked about the increase of young concert goers, They don't have the same dress code as older but at least they're coming. John had talked to a visitor and they'd exclaimed about the amount of new music/younger crowd and said they'd only dreamed about what we had here.
This post made me think about what's really important about playing music.
If a young person looks into Beethoven and sees something, I want to hear what that was. It seems to be the point.
Having said that, I think I need to sit back and listen.
Posted on: 31 May 2009 by mikeeschman
quote:Originally posted by mikeeschman:quote:Originally posted by mudwolf:
My friends and I have noticed the LA Phil has hired many new players under Salonen and the orchestra is decidedly young, but it seems to be a tight sound, not a round and full sound of lets say Chicago. Tho Thurs night we had Eschenbach conduct Mozart and Bruckner's 7th. Wow what a performance for the Bruckner. The 2nd slow movement had a lot of Wagner in it. I preferred to close my eyes and not be distracted by visuals at certain moments.
Later driving home John told us the lead in the horn section died about 2 weeks ago from heart attack at 47, a great loss at a young age, he had been hand picking the new players. We also have a new Timpani player, he brought his own to the competition and better than what the Phil had. That must have been expensive, but got him the position.
We also talked about the increase of young concert goers, They don't have the same dress code as older but at least they're coming. John had talked to a visitor and they'd exclaimed about the amount of new music/younger crowd and said they'd only dreamed about what we had here.
This post made me think about what's really important about playing music.
If a young person looks into Beethoven and sees something, I want to hear what that was. It seems to be the point.
Having said that, I think I need to sit back and listen.
I must have had a minor stroke when writing this previous post. What i meant to say was that many orchestras in the U.S. (including Chicago) are becoming younger, and that I am curious and excited to hear what differences that will bring.
Posted on: 31 May 2009 by u5227470736789439
It will bring an evolution in the style of the band, which may or may not be good depending on what is lost in the process.
What is certain is that the corporate style of any orchestra changes with each generation of new players so that even the VPO still has a unique and recognisable style, but it is not the same style which they had seventy or eighty years ago as shown by the recordings from that time.
In those days the strings played with almost no vibrato and absolutely perfectly in tune, as the result of having nowhere to hide intonation faults under a layer of vibrato. It is a great discipline to play without vibrato ...
Strangely people confuse vibrato and the absense of discordant sounds with accurate and secure intonation.
Really accurate intonation can only be assessed in the absense of vibrato.
The modern VPO tends to use almost as much vibrato as any other orchestra nowadays, which I personally find a step backwards from the ultimate quality of their older style of string playing.
When I taught the double bass I used to ask students to practice with a small amount of vibrato at the end [if they wanted to] but entirely without vibrato for scales, arpegios, and tone and bowing excercises, and at least one or two passes on any practice pieces in hand, before allowing themselves the luxury of using a certain amount of vibrato, as it is the first line of defence in reducing the impact of faulty intonation - it simply disguises it, and is a hiding place for an insecure left hand technique.
For myself I never used vibrato in performance except if I had an instrumental solo - so only a few times altogether!
The choral equivalent of this style is the pure vibrato free sonority of an English Cathedral Choir, where the best of choral tuning is frequently found.
ATB from George
What is certain is that the corporate style of any orchestra changes with each generation of new players so that even the VPO still has a unique and recognisable style, but it is not the same style which they had seventy or eighty years ago as shown by the recordings from that time.
In those days the strings played with almost no vibrato and absolutely perfectly in tune, as the result of having nowhere to hide intonation faults under a layer of vibrato. It is a great discipline to play without vibrato ...
Strangely people confuse vibrato and the absense of discordant sounds with accurate and secure intonation.
Really accurate intonation can only be assessed in the absense of vibrato.
The modern VPO tends to use almost as much vibrato as any other orchestra nowadays, which I personally find a step backwards from the ultimate quality of their older style of string playing.
When I taught the double bass I used to ask students to practice with a small amount of vibrato at the end [if they wanted to] but entirely without vibrato for scales, arpegios, and tone and bowing excercises, and at least one or two passes on any practice pieces in hand, before allowing themselves the luxury of using a certain amount of vibrato, as it is the first line of defence in reducing the impact of faulty intonation - it simply disguises it, and is a hiding place for an insecure left hand technique.
For myself I never used vibrato in performance except if I had an instrumental solo - so only a few times altogether!
The choral equivalent of this style is the pure vibrato free sonority of an English Cathedral Choir, where the best of choral tuning is frequently found.
ATB from George
Posted on: 31 May 2009 by mikeeschman
I was taught to play with the minimum of vibrato, as was everyone else I know, and I don't notice an excess of vibrato in 2008 recordings of Chicago, Berlin, the Concertgebouw and Vienna which I have recently purchased.
The rule taught me was that you could use a little at the end of a phrase, if it wasn't the whole section playing.
One of the things that is striking about these new recordings is the precision of both intonation and rhythm. It makes me hope that we are in for a new golden age of orchestral playing, even as the finances of orchestras is becoming worrisome.
The rule taught me was that you could use a little at the end of a phrase, if it wasn't the whole section playing.
One of the things that is striking about these new recordings is the precision of both intonation and rhythm. It makes me hope that we are in for a new golden age of orchestral playing, even as the finances of orchestras is becoming worrisome.
Posted on: 02 June 2009 by soundsreal
quote:One of the things that is striking about these new recordings is the precision of both intonation and rhythm. It makes me hope that we are in for a new golden age of orchestral playing, even as the finances of orchestras is becoming worrisome.
Now Mike, there you go again, thinking new is better. I just don't hear it. Could it just be recording techniques you're hearing? And yes, I'll be asking some of my friends soon what they think and get back to you. I haven't forgotten.
Mike, if we were living in a golden age now, or even sometime soon, would you know how to recognize it?
Posted on: 03 June 2009 by mikeeschman
quote:Originally posted by soundsreal:
Mike, if we were living in a golden age now, or even sometime soon, would you know how to recognize it?
i like to think so, and i hope so. who can really say?