Vinyl Archiving

Posted by: Mr Underhill on 12 April 2010

I have a small amount of room for vinyl in my living room, so most of it lives elsewhere in the house, and gets regularly rotated.

Having the vinyl music more conveniently available would be great, so I decided to use my M-Audio MicroTrack to record a couple of albums and listen to the results.

The M-Audio is what I use for doing live recordings, but with a better microphone that the little job supplied. However, the little box does also input from 1/4" jacks, and so I used this to take my tape output from my EAR864 pre-amp.

I have used this historically when recording off my tuner, to good result. However, here I had an issue; the input levels were too high, only just, but enough.

In the days of tape recording I remember setting the levels to occasionally tip into the red - but I knew this was NOT good news when recording digitally.

I thought I'd have a go anyway and chose 'Miss Saigon', as I hoped a stage show might push the levels less than, say, rock music!

The recording went fine, but in the forte moments little red lights disturbed my peace of mind.

The output is described in Audacity as 32bit 96KHz. I saved it as 24bit 96KHz - with no file size difference, so I suspect this is a file header issue.


The Sound:
Excellent. I mean REALLY good ....except, when getting to the crescendos it sounds like a slightly mis-tracking cartridge!

SO, I have now ordered a couple of phono attenuators (-10Db), but suspect I may end up have to get something like the Creek passive pre-amp.

M
Posted on: 12 April 2010 by Hook
Hi Mr Underhill -

A couple of basic questions:

Do the attenuators go between your MicroTrack and your sound card?

Is this one of those pro-audio meets home-audio situations? What device do you usually connect the MicroTrack's outputs to?

Have been looking through a book about analog recording, and just recently learned about "soft clipping", and how the concept does not transfer to the digital recording world!

Thanks.

Hook
Posted on: 12 April 2010 by garyi
Had you considered using the tape outs on your preamp?
Posted on: 13 April 2010 by Eloise
quote:
Originally posted by Mr Underhill:
SO, I have now ordered a couple of phono attenuators (-10Db), but suspect I may end up have to get something like the Creek passive pre-amp.

Are you using the output of your Record Player direct into the Microtrack's Mic inputs then doing digital RIAA correction, or using a Phono Pre-amp as an intermediate stage?

I would have thought a pair of phono attenuators should stop the overloading of the inputs.

Eloise
Posted on: 13 April 2010 by pcstockton
You've got to use a phono stage prior to the M-Audio.
Posted on: 13 April 2010 by Eloise
quote:
Originally posted by pcstockton:
You've got to use a phono stage prior to the M-Audio.

Depending on the cartridge and its output level, you can input a phono cartridge's output directly into a Microphone pre-amp (depending on the design of the pre-amp), doing RIAA equalization in the digital domain once it is captured in your computer. I was unsure if the M-Audio device was compatible this way.

Eloise
Posted on: 13 April 2010 by pcstockton
ive never seen it done that way but what do I know....

Every needle drop I have seen done was through a phono pre of some sort.

Why wouldnt you use the same phono pre for transfers as you would for listening?
Posted on: 13 April 2010 by garyi
I think I sort of said that Winker

Use the tape loop, job done.
Posted on: 13 April 2010 by Eloise
quote:
Originally posted by garyi:
I think I sort of said that Winker

Use the tape loop, job done.

If the outputs of the phono pre-amp are too hot for the ADC I don't think passing it through the tape outputs will help. In this case the attenuators will be perfect.

Eloise
Posted on: 13 April 2010 by garyi
Why not? You have phono in on your pre dealing with the sensitivity then out the tape loop. Of course it will work, its how its been done since the inception of tape.
Posted on: 13 April 2010 by Mr Underhill
Hi All,

I am using the tape loop:

...and so I used this to take my tape output from my EAR864 pre-amp.


ghook2020:

The attenuators go between the pre and the microtrack - dropping the signal by 10Db.
I usually use the 1/8" input to record live, and then move the file onto my laptop using USB to master the recording.

--I'm an old enough b***r that I used to record on both cassette and 'proper' tape machines, and so had to 'unlearn' soft clipping!

Garyi:
Yep - that's what I'm doing.

Eloise:
That IS an idea.

My concern with the attenuators is that they will effect the sound. Depending on the result I may play further.


pcstockton:
I suspect you may be correct ....BUT, I do have a microphone amp that I use on site, and that might do the trick if the cartridge levels are too low.
I might have a play anyway.



Update:
Just come back from taking my wife for dinner - and found the attenuators have already arrived. Just re-recording Miss Saigon, and then I'll do a comparison.


M
Posted on: 13 April 2010 by Mr Underhill
OK, I've just re-recorded Miss Saigon & Rush - Moving Pictures.

The recording scale on the MicroTek is pretty useless - and I thought I'd judged the recording level perfectly; in fact looking at the recording in Audacity shows that I only just breach 50% on the signal DB allowed; whereas last time the although I hit 0DB sometimes the overall shape of the recorded signal was a lot better.

In terms of what I am hearing:
The level of background noise is fine, however, the attenuators seem to have taken off some 'edge' and impact from the vocals. If I was listening to a badly behaved digital front end that might be an advantage, here it is not.

I don't mean that what I've got is bad, it's actually still very good, but I know it could be a smidgin better - which is annoying!

I'll have another go tomorrow, and edge up the recording level; but I suspect what I am hearing is an artifact of the attenuators.

So that may leave me with trying to either use a good quality passive pre, or try Eloise's idea.

M
Posted on: 13 April 2010 by pcstockton
Underhill,

Good luck.... My 24/96 vinyl transfers are among the most cherished in my library.

When I put on some Zappa I typically choose a hi-res vinyl transfer over the CD. Not only for the different mix, but also because they sound better to me. Not the CDs aren't money. They are. Just different.

Ive read of people using EAR preamps successfully. I can only guess that the M-Audio is maybe holding you back. ????

-p
Posted on: 14 April 2010 by garyi
Ere, Patrick you don't have slip dirt taken from vinyl do you?
Posted on: 14 April 2010 by Mr Underhill
Thx pc.

Last night I recorded straight from the LP12 to the MicroT.

I have read that Audacity can do the RIAA adjustments - will be playing later!

M
Posted on: 14 April 2010 by Rockingdoc
You raise a valid point. I have found that attenuation of high level input to a recorder in the digital domain is not very successful, and therefore analogue attenuation before it reaches the AtoD conversion is needed. This obviously isn't available from your tape outputs.
Posted on: 14 April 2010 by garyi
I don't understand how that can be so. The tape should only be hearing what its given, is Mr Underhills phono playback all screwed up then?
Posted on: 14 April 2010 by Eloise
quote:
Originally posted by Mr Underhill:
I have read that Audacity can do the RIAA adjustments - will be playing later!

Yes, Audacity can do RIAA (and other) equalisation. Record as normal (no EQ) then select Effect, Equalization from the menus and a pop up window will allow you to choose the EQ curve you want.

Eloise
Posted on: 14 April 2010 by pcstockton
quote:
Originally posted by garyi:
Ere, Patrick you don't have slip dirt taken from vinyl do you?


Hee hee. I certainly do. It is so good. Both ways of course. But the original vinyl without vocals is yummy.... Email me.
Posted on: 14 April 2010 by garyi
I would but don't have your email. garethirwin at mac dot com

The vinyl rip would appear to be rocking horse shit. I promise to be nice to you from now on Winker
Posted on: 14 April 2010 by Mr Underhill
Hi pc:

quote:
Ive read of people using EAR preamps successfully. I can only guess that the M-Audio is maybe holding you back. ????


The issue is that the signal strength into the MT is too strong, the M-Audio can only wind down so far.


Eloise - THANK YOU.

I recorded one of the sides from Miss Saigon. The M-Audio does allow me to boost the input by 27Db. This has given me a usable signal from the LP12.

The recorded file is very tinny and bass light, as you'd expect, one side - 770MB.

I then applied 5 RIAA Audacity effects, producing 5 files:

RCA 1947
RCA 1938
RIAA
Decca
Columbia

The two RCA curves are more boosted in the bass, and therefore sound warmer; they also emphasised some vinyl noise.

RIAA / Decca / Columbia are very similar.

I can see that on some albums the RCA may well be preferred by me - like applying your own graphic equaliser, sits back and waits for the brickbats!

Most important, that warm fuzzy blah that the attenuators introduced to the music is gone.

I must admit I am wondering what it might do to introduce a proper variable phono pre-amp to get rid of the MT 27Db boost.

Getting back to my recording!

M