The Character of the Key Signature

Posted by: Florestan on 03 July 2010

As I grow older I have noticed that my fondness for music continues to grow. Perhaps, it would be more correct to say that I have always been fond on music since my earliest recollection but it is my understanding of it on different levels that is evolving and changing over the years and this is adding the dimensions and making it all quite interesting. So it is probably a combination of an innate, universal understanding of human emotion through music with the added intellect as one ages and works at it. It is a complicated subject that has eluded mankind forever so there is no fear that I could ever reach a point where I would be able to stop, thankfully.

There have been many discussions here about some of the elements of music such as melody, harmony, rhythm, for instance. Recently, I’ve started focusing on the importance of the key signature of a piece and the role it plays in the music. Now, more than ever, I am convinced that the key signature plays a pivotal role in making a piece of music what it is. So this is a journey for me in exploring and putting into words these ideas that I might have felt over the years but never really connected the relationship formally until recently.

I would like this discussion to be in regards to all music. My vocabulary and knowledge is limited to classical music but I would value other perspectives and inputs, too (Jazz, all contemporary music etc). Also, I will apologize in advance for the length of this post. For the benefit of those who may feel intimidated by all this talk of music theory I would like to dispel this fear and be inclusive of all, especially those with zero knowledge but have at least some curiosity. So from time to time, I may introduce some basic concepts in music theory and hope that this will be appreciated and aid in the appreciation of this topic.

For those who do not wish to read on perhaps I could just state some of the main premises and thoughts I am thinking about.
1) Does each key have a predetermined or assumed character?
2) When a composer writes a score, is the key arbitrary or did the composer have a specific intent by choosing that key?
3) Does the key offer any insight or provide queues on how to interpret a piece?

When I was a child and through the various stages of learning how to play the piano and studying theory, I do believe that if someone had asked me about the key signature of a piece I would quite simply have given a reply in terms of the number of sharps or flats or the lack of them. More sharps and flats somehow equated into “harder” to play.

I am generally going to talk about Western Art music. Its heyday was from around 1600 to the early part of the 1900’s, I suppose. It was this period that really developed Tonal Music and this means we are basing our sound concept on Major and Minor keys. Outside of this, most music in the world to this point would be referred to as modal. I’m only going to talk about tonalism.

In tonal music, we essentially have 12 pitches that repeat the same pattern from low frequencies to higher frequencies. From these 12 pitches we have developed 24 keys; a major and a minor for each pitch. If you are familiar with a piano keyboard you can name these pitches easily by pressing every note from, say, middle C to the next C an octave higher. Specifically, these are named as follows:
1) C (white note)
2) C sharp (or D flat) (black note)
3) D (white note)
4) D sharp (or E flat) (black note)
5) E (white note)
6) F (white note)
7) F sharp (or G flat) (black note)
8) G (white note)
9) G sharp (or A flat) (black note)
10) A (white note)
11) A sharp (or B flat) (black note)
12) B (white note)
13) C (same pitch but an octave higher – this pattern will repeat ascending or descending)

For the notes that are shown in two ways, this is known as the Enharmonic. It really means this is the same note or pitch (ie. C sharp (or D flat)) but it is named differently depending how you want to view it. Each pitch is considered to be a half step between each other and two half steps is a whole step.

Also note that the 12 pitches have been chosen and standardized for tonal music. In reality, there can be an unlimited amount of pitches. For example, between the note we call C and D we can play many different pitches but in a tonal system it doesn’t sound right. Our ear can tell when for instance a singer sings slightly above or below the exact pitch it should be.

All Major and Minor scales can be defined as follows:

Major Scale:




Harmonic Minor:




Melodic Minor:




The other point worth mentioning is that a Relative Minor key is found by going three half steps lower than the beginning (Tonic) note of the major scale. The first note on the Major scale above is (middle) C. The first note in the minor scales above is A (which can be like counting backwards from #13 to #10 on the pitches listed above). C major and A minor share the same Key Signature. Also, note that in the Melodic Minor scale the two sharps would be removed when playing the scale descending.

Now for some practical information to those who listen to Bach’s Well Tempered Clavier, Chopin’s Preludes or even Shostakovich’s Prelude & Fugues. When talking about studies of Keys, these works are probably the most appropriate place to start because they specifically set out to cover all the keys but of course I intend to show that the same principles apply just the same way to all composers in this period.

Now that you know that there are 24 major and minor keys it should be clear that this matches the number of Preludes and Fugues in Book 1 of Bach’s WTC and also, the same in Book 2 (48 in total). Chopin’s Preludes have one piece per key again for a total of 24 and for that matter so do Shostakovich’s Preludes.

The only difference between Bach and Chopin / Shostakovich is in the order in which the pieces are placed within the book.

Bach proceeds chronologically. In other words, he first writes a Prelude and Fugue in C major, then a Prelude and Fugue in C minor, then a Prelude and Fugue in C sharp major, then a Prelude and Fugue in C sharp minor, then a Prelude and Fugue in D major, then a Prelude and Fugue in D minor and so on up to B minor.

Chopin and Shostakovich’s Preludes follow the order of the Circle of Fifths. This mean the first Prelude is in C major, the second in A minor, the third in G major, the fourth in E minor and so on. The easiest way to understand the Circle of Fifths is to follow the chart below and work your way clockwise around the circle. Essential C to G is a fifth (the Dominant) as is A to E etc.

Circle of Fifths:




Note that Bach wrote, for example, his piece in C sharp major and Chopin wrote in D flat major. While these are essentially the same thing I would argue from a psychological point of view these are different things (sharps vs flats).

The reason I wanted to present this much detail is it is the only way you might be able to understand the next points which will build toward my main premise here.

When I play a major or a minor scale on the piano the pattern and sound is equivalent or generic for all. Assuming that a listener is ignoring the pitches (ie. Cannot hear perfect pitch) a C major scale will sound exactly like a G major scale or E flat major and so on BUT a piece written in C major can never or will never have the same character as a piece in G major or E flat major.

From this generic pattern, music is created when a composer infuses the main elements of music, which are namely melody, harmony, and rhythm. But it is the key signature of the piece that puts everything into context though. It sets the stage or atmosphere, so to speak.

In some way, I believe that Bach really defined this expertly in his two books of the WTC. It is like he defined the musical equivalent of some natural law like gravity for us. From this point forward, these principles were carried forward by Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven and onward. The question is as to whether we are assuming Bach set the tone with each key or whether he was the first to actually understand what key is? Did he just happen upon some universal principle by chance or did he discover these principles and use them to his (and our) advantage?

So, if this is true, I am suggesting here that in a broad but real sense, a piece written in E flat major or C minor by Bach will convey the same feeling and sense of emotion as a piece in E flat major or C minor by Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven and so on. By extension, this suggests that we can break down the walls and stigma of saying this is Baroque or this is Classical or this is Romantic etc and focus solely on the emotive nature and character of the music. I believe we can rely on these dominant patterns. Later, I could show this pattern does hold true by comparing pieces in the same key, which might span over 200 years.

As an aside, I believe that for each individual there are certain keys that are more natural or suitable to that individual. This is why when I listen to the WTC, I will be attracted to certain pieces more so than others and everyone will probably tend to certain keys (moods) that are in alignment with their character in general. If you go through the WTC and just note the ones that you relate to the most I’m sure you will see a pattern here.

I’ve noticed this in myself since I was a child. In general, I gravitate toward minor keys. There are very few major keys that please or satisfy me. But in fact, they mostly disappoint me and make me feel uneasy.

One example of this for me is late Schubert’s C minor Sonata. In the last movement, it is centered on the key of G major, a key which is quick, light, and carefree in character. I can’t stand this and it makes me feel unsatisfied. Then in the middle section it is developed and returned back to C minor by a pianissimo (almost like a whisper from God). C minor is the key that the whole piece is moored on. So this return is such a glorious moment it is hard to fight back the tears here. It is a key of longing, solitude, of desire for things unknown and resolve to carry on. But we only get a very small taste of this as when Schubert reiterates the theme a few bars later he sadly does this in C major. For probably everyone on the face of this planet this is really symbolic of some hope or the silver lining. From a listeners perspective it will feel like the pitch is raised (as we eliminate the flats). Moving higher always symbolizes something positive (heaven) and moving lower always symbolizes something more ominous (the other place), This may be true but for me, leaving this place of magic and beauty is the tragedy.

Listening to and learning the WTC does teach us much about key. When we understand that a certain key brings along with it many givens about what the composer intended by setting the piece in this key, I think this also directs us in a proper interpretation of the piece. The other descriptions and musical descriptions written into the piece will likely correspond with the general feeling of the key.

For those interested, listen to the WTC, or any other composer and write down the emotions you feel from the piece and also note the key. Over time, pay attention to the key your favorite pieces are in. See if you are drawn to specific keys and ask yourself if pieces of a similar key put you in a similar mood.

Exploring the 24 keys on the piano is fascinating but for other instruments I think just by the nature of the instrument this limits the full exploration of the keys (at least naturally or easily). I’m thinking of the string family, guitar, certain wind instruments etc.?

I know, for example, a cello is based on the A, D, G, C strings. So it is more natural to play in these primary keys? Maybe someone can explain these other instruments better than I. For instance, what keys do most pieces played on a guitar fall in? I kind of doubt that there are any pieces in D sharp minor that are written or played? But the same is true of piano. The dominant keys get the most pieces written for them.

To help me keep focused on the importance of key I often try to think of pieces now by key. In other words, in of Beethoven’s 5th Symphony, I try to think of it as Beethoven’s C minor symphony. Same thing as with Beethoven’s last piano sonata as it is mostly referred to as No. 32 or Op. 111 but by thinking of it as the C minor sonata we can readily understand what it is all about. If I have time in the future I’d like to create a list of keys and provide descriptions of how these keys present themselves. Then, we can pick pieces by any composer and see if these attributes carry through.

I've run out of time but wanted to somehow throw the idea of Transposition into this. In theory, we could transpose any piece. So we don't think Bach knew what he was doing by writing his first Prelude and Fugue in Book 1 in C major. So we rewrite it in D major. Sure, it will sound vaguely the same but I would argue that the character that was intended by Bach will be lost.

So in summary, I would say that the importance of key of often overlooked. I believe the use of key is totally intrinsic to the music itself. You cannot defy the laws that are universal and you cannot fool the key by writing something against or foreign to its nature. The key lends itself to suggesting how to interpret works of music. The key is what puts a piece of music into context.

Agree or disagree? How do you feel about the key in a piece of music? Does key have any affect you in your listening? What keys engage you the most? Maybe, the key is the least of your concerns in music?

I look forward to your thoughts and opinions on this.

Regards,
Doug
Posted on: 05 July 2010 by u5227470736789439
George, while listening to the B Minor Mass is an unparalleled musical experience, and while I enjoyed it tremendously, I find it too grand in scope and rich in detail, not to mention the gravity of the libretto, for the simple sleuthing of seeking out the character of a key.

Dear Mike,

I did not discover this because of listening, but rather that I had to play the music [Double bass part] on the basis of only one rehearsal "topping and tailing" the sections, so that an hour and a half rehearsal served for two hours playing. This was very early on in my career, and the fee demanded effortless correct playing! So I firstly learned the bass part, and because of fascination learned then the whole score!

Needless to say I was asked back many times to that Choral Society! I was only there because their regular bassist was unavailable, but after that I always played their Bach, and Mozart Concerts.

Dear Fred,

It is fascinating to read your words from the composer's end of the telescope. Thanks for the understanding so shared. As a player I was lucky enough to know one or two composers [of music for Cathedral Church music in the main] whose perspective certainly helped me understand something about the great Baroques, and Classicists' writing of church music.

Sometimes the learning and at least partial analysis of music has really opened up another vista for me!

Dear Doug,

When considering the violin [and its family], the player almost always is only playing one string [solo music aside] and so there are three free strings that will happily resonate on the fundamental and up to the first three, four or five harmonics in a clearly audible way. This brightens up the string sounds. The most significant intervals [the Keynote, Sub-dominant or fourth, Dominant or fifth, and the Sixth] in the keys F, C, G, and D, find many resonances in the free strings of the violin family of instruments, but these same intervals in say the very flat key of D Flat, do not set of these resonances on the unused open strings, because there is no consonance in the notes with the possible resonances of these remaining free strings, and the timbre is more subdued. I hope that kind of helps.

ATB from George
Posted on: 05 July 2010 by mikeeschman
George, one of the great pleasures of learning new things, is to have someone who knows better throw you into the deep end of the pool, every now and then :-)

On the trumpet, valve combinations that use the third valve have a more subdues tonal color. This is the longest length of tubing to produce the sound of the instrument. As I understand it, this places the portion of the overtone series that is a scale lower in the frequency spectrum than the other valve positions, so you play in a register with lower, i.e. less brilliant, overtones.

I think that is analogous to the string examples you gave, although the number of possibilities open to the string player are far greater than what is afforded the brass player.
Posted on: 05 July 2010 by u5227470736789439
Der Mike,

On the strings really the reverse is true regarding a bright or softer sound. To get a softer sound [from the string being played, never mind the free strings] you "stop" [ie, press the fingers of your left hand down on the finger board] on a lower string to make the note. Each lower string is thicker than the one above in pitch. The relatively thicker string in a shorter column length makes the overtones less strong relative to the fundamental, and gets a more closed in and silky sound.

In fast movements it is usual to play in the lowest possible positions yielding brighter sounds from thinner strings, a longer column of string, with much quicker speaking of the notes, whilst for Adagios it is normal to adopt the less bright sound of the higher positions on lower strings. Often they may be as many as three different choices! Of course this is a rule of thumb and will be modified by musical and pratical issues in many cases!

ATB from George
Posted on: 05 July 2010 by mikeeschman
Perhaps I misunderstand everything, my own instrument included.

Time to banish a bit more ignorance by reading. I am listened out today, and the next best thing to hearing is to read about sound and music.
Posted on: 05 July 2010 by u5227470736789439
Dear Mike,

I don't think you have misunderstood your own instruments. Rather that the different physical attributes of the string and the brass and wind [as well the keyboard] growps make for quite different approaches to playing. When did you last see a violinist pause his playing for an intake of breath!

Very best wishes from Goerge
Posted on: 05 July 2010 by fred simon
quote:
Originally posted by mikeeschman:

On first listen to "Gnu High" I thought, "ah, typical 70s jazz.", and quickly fell into boredom. This week, I hear harmonic motion in "Gnu High" that completely escaped my attention earlier. (I can hear it, but not identify it.) Now the music is interesting, and I look forward to another listen.


Mike, you still have that sheet I sent you for the first tune on Gnu High, "Heyoke"? Granted, the sheet is not in the composer's original hand, so we can't know for sure how he notated it, and there are a few enharmonic inversions I would have corrected if I had transcribed it, but the resultant sounds are correct.

Anyway, if you can dig up that sheet and listen again while reading it, here are a few harmonic highlights, though hardly an exhaustive harmonic analysis:

Starting in the first two bars with the wide open harmonic ambiguity of an F major with a raised 4th and 7th, it moves into four bars of distinct F# minor. And then leaves immediately, never again settling into any one specific tonal area.

The ninth bar begins a harmonic ladder of sorts, at first in a sequence of minor thirds: Ab - B - D - F (after passing through G on its way from D) ... by the way, you might notice that this sequence outlines a diminished chord.

An extension of the ladder begins with the F chord in the fifteenth bar, the same F which resolved the previous sequence of minor thirds now begins a sequence built on major thirds: F - A - Db - F (that's the F at the top of tune, after first passing through Gb just before the repeat sign in the 1st ending; by the way, note the mirror in the ends of those two sequences: D - G in the first, Db - Gb in the second). Also, you might notice that just as the first sequence built on minor thirds outlines a diminished chord, the second sequence, built on major thirds, outlines an augmented chord.

As I said, this won't suffice for an exhaustive harmonic analysis, but just being able to hear/see these highlights puts you well on the way to understanding the tune's harmonic motion.

By the way, this tune also serves very well as an example of a piece which doesn't have, or need, a key signature.



Posted on: 05 July 2010 by mikeeschman
Fred, I have the Heyoke sheet music. I'll give this a go tomorrow night.
Posted on: 05 July 2010 by Florestan
George, I really appreciate your explanation and it is starting to make sense. It explains why I love the C string so much on the cello! I think it would also help me to revisit some of my old physics textbooks and brush up on this to really get grounded. When I play with string players I've often heard the teacher telling one of them to play the same note on a different string and now I know why. I wish I could have learned a string instrument too as a child as their is a definite advantage to training one's ears. As a pianist, we are never really forced to think this way - we just press an A and we always get an A! I've only really been exposed to this new world about 6 or 7 years ago when I started to work with string players for the first time in my life.

Fred, I'm learning so much here and this is very exciting. Thanks for introducing the flip side of this argument in that you introduced me to music without a key signature. This is really a foreign concept to me and it is opening my eyes a bit. One thing that threw me a little was your quote:

quote:
One benefit of this is that the musician reading the music can more or less just play the specific note in the moment without being distracted by remembering which notes have been sharped or flatted.


Myself growing up exclusively in the world of the key signature I would have thought just the opposite. Often, when I'm playing or sightreading from music I'll all of a sudden realize that I forgot to look at the key signature but somehow I know how to get around. Maybe it is in my subconscious that I see and pick it up just by the shape or patterns. I find it all to be logical, and easy to understand and would have thought it to be more work to follow this on individual notes.

I guess it is all in the practice and familiarity. When I have to read music in the tenor or alto clef this does throw me off. Here I could see that if the accidentals were on the individual note it might assist me.

Thanks all for the excellent posts and interesting insights.

Best Regards,
Doug
Posted on: 06 July 2010 by fred simon
quote:
Originally posted by Florestan:

Fred, I'm learning so much here and this is very exciting. Thanks for introducing the flip side of this argument in that you introduced me to music without a key signature. This is really a foreign concept to me and it is opening my eyes a bit. One thing that threw me a little was your quote:

quote:
One benefit of this is that the musician reading the music can more or less just play the specific note in the moment without being distracted by remembering which notes have been sharped or flatted.


Myself growing up exclusively in the world of the key signature I would have thought just the opposite. Often, when I'm playing or sightreading from music I'll all of a sudden realize that I forgot to look at the key signature but somehow I know how to get around. Maybe it is in my subconscious that I see and pick it up just by the shape or patterns. I find it all to be logical, and easy to understand and would have thought it to be more work to follow this on individual notes.

I guess it is all in the practice and familiarity. When I have to read music in the tenor or alto clef this does throw me off. Here I could see that if the accidentals were on the individual note it might assist me.

Thanks all for the excellent posts and interesting insights.


You're more than welcome, Doug.

The idea is that in music that doesn't stick to one key for very long, or at all, there is no overall homogeneous sound to remind the ear, nor consistent muscle memory to remind the fingers, that all the Fs and Cs are sharped, for instance. Without this homogeneity, it's much easier to play an F# when one sees an F#, and to play an F natural when there isn't a sharp in subsequent bars.

It also ties into the tradition of musicians who are used to playing a gig, live or in the studio, cold ... little or no rehearsal, so a composer and the music copyist (if someone other than the composer) try to give every advantage they can to the cold reader in order to result in the desired sound as efficiently as possible with a minimum of ambiguity.

By the way, the recording session that produced the album which has cropped up in this thread, Gnu High, was exactly this kind of session ... musicians are called to the studio, they see the music for the first time when they arrive, recording starts and genius ensues.

All best,
Fred



Posted on: 07 July 2010 by mikeeschman
Fred, last night my wife banged out your harmonic analysis on the piano for a half hour or so. I think that put something in my ear. Somehow the tune seems more alive, more focused.

Very enjoyable too!

Once again I have to thank you for your generosity of spirit.

I am going to buy everything by Fred Simon that I don't have this weekend.

Please make sure I know when something new is coming.

I'm going to run off and listen to some Fred Simon right now.
Posted on: 08 July 2010 by u5227470736789439
Dear Fred,

This issue of use of key signatures is something that is important and fascinating at the same time.

I see your point about session musicians in the studio playing from parts with accidentals marked throughout, rather than formal key signature with occasional additional accidentals marked. It could be that it becomes easier to play the accidentals as you go, especially if you are used to it, and the music is very tonally fluid, or more or less even formally "atonal."

From my perspective, having played a good deal of "classical music" often on very short rehearsals, I naturally became acute at reading the music in the traditional way with key signatures, but there is a point I would be interested in your opinion of?

Given that singers [and vocal ensembles from a handful to a choir of hundreds] as well as string players tend to tune with just intonation, where the tonic or keynote is the basis of the tuning of all the intervals, then knowing the intended key is very helpful in terms of precise intonation. This is hugely significant in terms of the Major Third and Major Seventh for string players and singers, as well as the winds. It is entirely a non-issue for keyboard players, who cannot adjust these intervals for a consonant intonation, and often it seems to me not all that significant listening to fretted instruments such as guitars, at least going on the resulting intonation. Naturally as a string player, I am sensitised [beyond the average at least] to the issue of tuning within the key, so my interest in your view may be esoteric to some degree, but it is a big point in orchestral rehearsal. The "E" in C Major is not the same as the "E" in D Major in just intonation on the strings, though it inevitably is on keyboards.

I also found that when modulating key, that the bass part so frequently leads the transition, and the tuning of a sharp as one modulates to the Dominant [or Fifth from] the original key MUST be taken in the tuning of the new key.

This would not be obvious in music notated without key signature, and a bar or two later the new key is shown with a new key signature which saves a good deal of doubt where the player is using one line rather than a full score, which would [possibly] indicate clearly tonal and key centre being modulated towards.

The part will include the sharpened [or flattened] note followed by a double bar, and a new key signature. In very fluid music [strangely more common than you might imagine in Handel and Bach and much more predictable in Mozart for example] sometimes one passes through several keys in a couple of bars, before the tonality centres on a new key. In these cases, quite some work may be put in at rehearsal by the conductor to establish just what is going on in terms of just intonation in relation to the keys being passed through in modulation. I could imagine the signature-less music, with very fluid tonal [ie. key] qualities might produce even greater intonation problems for instruments with an infinite ability to get it wrong, such as the violin family.

I hope you don't mind this question, which answer "from the composer perspective" will be a great instruction for a person working from the string-playing angle.

ATB from George
Posted on: 09 July 2010 by fred simon


George, while it's true that there's much Bach and Handel which passes through multiple modulations, it's almost always coming from and going to fairly stable key centers. In a situation like that, it still probably makes sense to use changing signatures. But I'm really talking about music which never really settles into any one key center for long.

I'm a real stickler for intonation, but only up to the point where the music sounds really great, if you know what I mean. Obviously, that should always be the goal, key signature or not ... the players, in conjunction with the conductor if there is one, must make whatever adjustments necessary to make the music sound good.



Posted on: 09 July 2010 by fred simon


Mike, thanks for your gracious words and support, and you're entirely welcome. I hope you continue to enjoy the music.

All best,
Fred



Posted on: 09 July 2010 by mikeeschman
George, the kind of razor sharp intonation you discussed always seems more electric to my ears. The music flows more easily and with an abundance of life.
Posted on: 09 July 2010 by Florestan
quote:
The "E" in C Major is not the same as the "E" in D Major in just intonation on the strings, though it inevitably is on keyboards.


Hi George,
It must be no easy thing for string players to play Sonatas, Trios, Quartets etc. along with a piano? How appreciable is this difference for anyone who likely doesn't benefit from perfect pitch? Is it hard for a string quartet to play and then play a piano quintet or something?

I know that every piano is different and most are probably out of tune compared to a string player who probably practices with A as being 440 Hz etc.. How does a string player who has a good sense of key play with a piano if it is out of tune slightly because they have to adjust to the piano right?

Regards,
Doug
Posted on: 10 July 2010 by mikeeschman
[QUOTE]Originally posted by mikeeschman:


Florestan, I've given this two good listens, and it is already one of my favorite Bach CDs. I see what you mean here about key relationships.

This disk serves as my introduction to Bach's keyboard concertos, I've never heard one before. I don't like many concertos, but this 1st by Bach is fantastic.

The orchestra is absolutely top notch.
Her playing is full of fire.

Thanks again.
Posted on: 10 July 2010 by Florestan
Mike, I'm very familiar with all this music on its own but it would take me changing the CD 5 or 6 times to get this order so it is interesting to note the feeling of the key in this unique way. I'm generally used to listening to the WTC in the order of the book so you get a stepwise aural feeling of key. Listening to a well planned recital is like being engaged in a great book; it takes you to so many different places and this recording is nice that way. It takes me to places I like and gives me such an energy in return and a feeling that even with all the unknowns in this universe that today at least in my little corner that there is comfort and everything will be OK. This is what Bach and the great composers provide me - hope.

What do you think of the transcriptions from Busoni, Liszt and Rachmaninov? To me, this is the highest honour that one could pay to a composer by offering some great music and sharing it more broadly. In this case, I as a pianist benefit because I cannot play the violin and don't easily have access to a pipe organ so the music is now available to me as an individual. As listener's, we all benefit because it allows this music to be heard in a different way. It still touches me the same way though.

Many interesting ideas have been presented here so far in thinking about the key signature. I suppose depending on your view of music there is no way to be sure of anything really but for me and at the point I am in my life I just have a strong sense or longing for various keys. Maybe it is just happens that my favorite music just happens to be written in these various keys and this is all just coincidence?

But I sit here wondering if the pieces on this CD were all transposed to C minor and C major, for instance, how unsatisfying that might be, especially when played in a group like this. I think George is absolutely correct in referring to the key change and progression as that of being of the utmost importance in music, among other things.

Best Regards,
Doug
Posted on: 10 July 2010 by u5227470736789439
quote:
Originally posted by Florestan:
quote:
The "E" in C Major is not the same as the "E" in D Major in just intonation on the strings, though it inevitably is on keyboards.


Hi George,
It must be no easy thing for string players to play Sonatas, Trios, Quartets etc. along with a piano? How appreciable is this difference for anyone who likely doesn't benefit from perfect pitch? Is it hard for a string quartet to play and then play a piano quintet or something?

... How does a string player who has a good sense of key play with a piano if it is out of tune slightly because they have to adjust to the piano right?

Regards,
Doug


Dear Doug,

The violinist [or other string players] make their tuning to fit the piano, or else the result is horrible, but as Busoni noted about the even temperament tuning of the modern piano. "The listener is able to enjoy the tuning never the less as the musical ear is an amazing organ for listening to what is intended. Thus the marginally compromised tuning of the modern keyboard is of minimal significance in reality."

We imagine just intonation so long as the tuning is clean and fine enough.

But it is true that there can be tuning issues on times between a string player and a pianist, but as the piano cannot be adjusted in performance, it is up to the string player to accommodate the piano ...

ATB from George
Posted on: 10 July 2010 by u5227470736789439
Dear Doug,

I have been racking my brain for a recorded example of strained tuning between a keyboard [modern piano] and strings.

One classic I remembered is the rightly famous Trout Quintet recording with Artur Schnabel, The Pro Arte quartet [Belgian], with the English bass player Hobday.

Hobday was one of the great bass players in London in the thirties, along with George Yate, and Eugen Cruft, who were respectively principal bassists in the LSO and BBC SO. I am not sure where Hobday's contract was held, but he was also a recitalist on the bass as well as superb orchestral musician, and his choice on the recording is no surprise, but listen to his tuning in the first movement where he doubles the piano! It is by no means blended nicely, and yet because it is fundamentally in tune it is not a big issue. Certainly not worth a retake or two, but they must have auditioned the sides before the recording continued as after the first movement, the bass is perfectly in tune with the piano. It is easy to forget that such minor discrepancies would have passed for nothing in concert, but on records are there for all to listen to for eternity!

Probably the hardest combinations are a piano with a regular quartet of strings, as the quartet will have a personal style evolved and honed, which will include a definite sense of string tuning in the just [key related] style, and this must be completely altered to the sense of even intonation of the piano. In live performances this sometimes leads to a "reversion!" On records this is likely to be entirely ironed out nowadays, unlike on the old Schnabel Trout recording from 1934.

At a less exalted level, for myself when playing with a harpsichord in a continuo group of cello and bass pair of players, then we certainly adjusted out tuning to match either modern or archaic tuning on the harpsichord. You might be surprised how many harpsichords are still tuned in one or other of the Baroque tuning schemes - Werkmeister Four is a very common tuning on organs and is an ideal choice for continuo harpsichord as it so often integrates with an organ also used. The Baroques were easier in the keys with few sharps or flats as they are more in tune in these, even than the modern even temperament, but some become quite odd with more than three sharps or flats!

ATB from George
Posted on: 10 July 2010 by Florestan
So it seems that whether a composer chose certain keys to convey certain feelings cannot be stated for sure; it seems some may have and some not have. Pieces about death and life have effectively been written in B minor (Bach’s B minor Mass) as well as B flat minor (Chopin’s 2nd Sonata) or any minor key I suppose (Mozart’s D minor Requiem). I guess the individual composer would only know and maybe the particular feeling or emotion they were trying to convey made sense in one key more than another key (based on their sense of pitch).

Brahms must have wrestled with what is the right key. I do know that his C minor Quartet for Piano, Violin, Viola, and Violincello was originally scored in C sharp minor. This piece lay unpublished for decades. When he revisited it before publishing it he reworked the whole thing in C minor. I wonder why?

The opening of this quartett is one of the most heart wrenching, tragic, dismal or sombre openings I can think of (and I love it). I have always felt this from the first listen and Brahms is being total honest and transparent here. The key, perhaps, is only an aid in helping him express exactly what he is feeling or wants to say? Recently, I happened to read the story behind this music and couldn’t help feeling how I didn’t have to really read this to know what the music made me felt like emotionally but now knowing this the music just seems even more powerful or special.

In speaking to his first biographer, Hermann Dieters, Brahms apparently referred to this yet unpublished work and said, “Imagine a man who is just going to shoot himself, for there is nothing else to do.” This music was written to represent Brahms’ own struggle with a secret love in his life (Clara Schumann) that he wanted and longed for but knew he could never have. To me, this is tragic on a Shakespearian level. This is a play about life but without words. When I hear the quite opening echoes of the two note motifs after the thundering opening octaves it is so clear to me now that this is Brahms saying Clar –aaaa. For Brahms anyway, this piece made more sense to him in C minor rather than C sharp minor.
Posted on: 10 July 2010 by u5227470736789439
Dear Doug,

Brahms the virtuoso pianist would probably have preferred the C Sharp Minor, which I imagine would have had certain resonances for him at the keyboard, but his reworking of the music for C Minor - I agree that this is a masterpiece which I love - would have reflected the possibilities of dark expression on the strings. C Sharp Minor is a major headache technically on any stringed instrument, and after his experience as a Master of the Orchestra in middle and old age, he no doubt felt the expression in a piano and string quartet form would best express the darkness in the music with "C" rather than "C Sharp" Minor.

As ever there is a blend of practicality and idealism in scoring for different instruments. The keyboard can be much freer as to key than most other instruments for fairly simple logistical/technical reasons.

ATB from George
Posted on: 10 July 2010 by Florestan
Thanks George,
Again, you put it in such a logical, straightforward manner; it's alway like you turn on the light when you enter the "music" room. I wish you would write more about music here in these parts.

Best Regards,
Doug
Posted on: 10 July 2010 by mikeeschman
George, a few words on the St. Matthew's Passion would go a long way.

I have been studying the libretto so I know where I am, but little else.
Posted on: 10 July 2010 by fred simon
quote:
Originally posted by GFFJ:

Busoni noted about the even temperament tuning of the modern piano. "The listener is able to enjoy the tuning never the less as the musical ear is an amazing organ for listening to what is intended. Thus the marginally compromised tuning of the modern keyboard is of minimal significance in reality."


Busoni was right on about this ... the human ear/mind wants to make connections whenever given even the most tenuous opportunity. As a wise friend of mine reminded me once, some of the greatest, emotionally evocative music is out of tune, or contains mistakes in execution, or has some other "defect." Nevertheless, despite all of that it still hits us where we live, and that is what is important.

One great example is John McLauglin's fairly out-of-tune guitar on the seminal Miles Davis recording of Josef Zawinul's composition In A Silent Way ... in McLaughlin's defense, he was looking at the music for the first time, and Miles had just instructed him to play the melody and chordal accompaniment simultneously. He told Miles that he'd need a few minutes to get it together, and Miles responded something to the effect of: "Just play it like you don't know how to play guitar." So McLaughlin, on the assumption that it was just a rough rehearsal, launched into it without checking his tuning, not knowing that it was being recorded, much less that it would end up as the title track of one of the most important albums in jazz history! Would it have been more sonically pleasing had he tuned up? Probably, but it would certainly not have been any more emotionally evocative.



Posted on: 10 July 2010 by u5227470736789439
Dear Fred,

Played without the aim of perfection it would [and I believe you when you say it does] achieve a "musical" perfection of aim "with freedom" that a more studied attempt would almost certainly not have yielded. More careful, more obviously techically perfect, and less aiming to communicate at a risk of ...

The trouble nowadays is that with recording the prosaically disposed might simply carp about the rough tuning without considering the message as being the "point!"

Tuning can be not so perfect if the performance has fire, spontaneity, and swing, at least for me!

Best wishes from George