Neither Linn nor Naim

-Too relentless, forward, bright. Some people are tone deaf and equate Naim qaualties to an 80's budget CDP. They're clearly not "getting it" or to use a cliche, are of the pipe and slippers.

-Bass too lean. Some people are used to pillowy waves of bass as experienced in a movie theatre or car subwoofers. They're shocked and confused when they hear what tuneful bass sounds like.

-Small scale. Some confuse the intimacy of being right on stage with "small scale". Said people are usually tune deaf and need hi-fi fireworks to justify their stereo expenditures.

-Something about "inner harmonics". Nary a clue what that means.

-No soundstage. Some of these same people insist that PRaT doesn't exist!!!

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Why do other Hi-Fi nuts not like Linn / Naim gear ?

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I’ve found this to be really funny in the past, they come in, sit down, mutter something about the stereo image being all wrong, then start tapping their feet and saying “wow, that’s a bloody great record, I’ll have to land a copy”. Hmm, looks like the hi-fi works after all then…

The vast majority of people I know who have “decent” stereos have some degree of Naim or other flatish earth kit in their systems. Constant exposure to my system actually made the most round earth person I know to realise that his was totally screwed from a timing perspective. He went on a buying frenzy…

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What about Meridian / Quad / Krell / valves he asked etc.?

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That’s actually a very weird list, they are all completely different from one another, especially if you count vintage Quad kit such as ESL 57s and the II mono blocks (some of my favourite hi-fi). I rate Krell as being pretty awful, really the polar opposite to Naim, and I have never really understood where Meridian were coming from. Valves as a category is again too vague - valves go from the ultra bland Audio Research stuff right through to kit such as Audio Note which actually seem to play tunes and time rather nicely. I actually suspect Audio Note may have some amps that really work, but I have never heard one in my own system or one that I am familiar with. From what I heard at the last show the Morgan Audio valve hybrid sounds like it has some potential.

Mike:

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-Too relentless, forward, bright.

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I still stand by my view that this is the sound of a Naim or other “fast” system not working properly. I have run a Naim amp of some description for over 15 years, and I only had a issue with an over bright or forward sound right at the beginning. Over the years as I have learnt more about setup my system sound has lost these traits completely. One thing that saddens me is that I have frequently heard Naim kit sound like someone angle-grinding a dustbin at some of their dealers, so I can completely understand how people can hold these opinions.

Tony.

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Originally posted by Tony Lonorgan:
I still stand by my view that this is the sound of a Naim or other “fast” system not working properly. I have run a Naim amp of some description for over 15 years, and I only had a issue with an over bright or forward sound right at the beginning. Over the years as I have learnt more about setup my system sound has lost these traits completely. One thing that saddens me is that I have frequently heard Naim kit sound like someone angle-grinding a dustbin at some of their dealers, so I can completely understand how people can hold these opinions.

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Hey, Tony, spot on.

I have heard this from several Naim systems, and struggled to get rid of it from mine for a long time. It is not part of the Naim sound, but Naim can be made to sound that way.

cheers, Martin

It's too bad many dealer setups are dodgy at best. Howver, it's understandable given the nature of a hi-fi shop; things are constantly being switched around, inserted and unplugged. Do hi-fi shoppes in England have dedicated 1 system rooms with meticulous, static Naim setups?

Oddly, I've never heard any complaints of the DIN arrangement. If one is sold on the Naim sound, they're either willing to use DIN>RCA cables in order to benefit from at least a Naim source or amp- Or, they are rich enough to buy into an entire Naim system and embrace the whole DIN philosophy.
Some complain about the BNCs from a convenience standpoint, however.

Also, I've never heard complaints about pedestrian looks either. Indeed, some have mentioned that other kit looks bloody garish in comparison (eg. all that chrome, glod and brushed aluminum). People with actual taste, brilliant!

I had one gentleman e-mail telling of a salesman horror story (hey, if you're lurking, how did you make out?):

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Someone recommended PSB
Stratus Gold to me, and I listened to them this morning. The demo was at a
[non-Naim] store with a completely tricked out listening room....Long story short, the fella at the store told me that you can't run
these speakers with anything other than an Naim NAP 500. Not even the 250
would work with them. 'Too dynamic' and such.

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Bloody hell!!! This is the kind of idiotspeak some salesmen are spouting to unsuspecting music lovers!
No wonder us Naimies are so maligned.

Buying into Naim took a good dealer to lead me away from my intitial reactions, and most importantly a prolonged home dem. I can listen to other systems and see what I reckon the poor folk are missing now, my brother listened to mine recently and said it sounded too 'real'; which he thought was not a compliment!

Bruce

[This message was edited by Bruce Woodhouse on FRIDAY 12 April 2002 at 07:44.]

The objections I heard in USA were:

1. Internal design too crude and simple to (sound good?)
2. Product is very good value in UK, less good value in USA
3. No local dealer
4. Valve -only amplification desired
5. If one component is Naim, only Linn or Naim components can be used in the rest of the system otherwise there are problems with sound
6. Amplifiers (for solid-state) not powerful enough
7. Most components not Stereophile class A
8. Imaging - female vocal ie DK doesn't come from dead centre spot between speakers.

That is a very good question, but answer is more complicated, but on other side is natural.
If you ever read a Stereophile magazine, you can read in every issue after some big hi-fi show, that people are voting for best sound at show. The best sound at show is usually rated at about 8%.
There is also a big number of people which listen only a classical music, but Naim is not a cup of tea for that kind of music. I don't mean that Naim don't sounds good with classical, but is somewhat non familiar with it. It missed some inner things and it's not "airy" which is very important for classical. On pop and rock music, Naim abilities comes up and that is timing, impact, speed, clarity and vivid open sound, just like you are there. But, on that kind of music you wont here some Naim shortcomings. Like people who like Naim sound characteristics, there is also people who like more realistic backward- forward soundstage and not so in face presentation.
But we must know some thing. Why do we ask why (all) other people don't like Naim/Linn sound?
Maybe some of us think that Naim is the best. I am sure that is not, but it's a damn good and all that in way which we like it. That's why we like Naim. If I summarize my audiophile experience, I can say that if someone somemeday made a let's say "perfect" amp, that amp will sound boring and non inspiring to most people. That is a human psihology. But one is shure, on our planet lives so much cretinos and idiots which buy expensive and no-sense gear like Conrad Johnson, which is for me a total romantic and escape from reality. There are so many companies like CJ and like Mark Levinson said once: "A lot numbers of amplifiers on the market today is just boxes". The main thing is that amps which look like ugly naked boxes sounds best and those beautiful looking are crap.
We, Naim oriented people are realists in all ways nad that is why we like it.

Ozren

Alex

Not only in PR&T, but that is a Naim flagship.

When people are used to, and impressed by the kind of uncontrolled flabby bass you get in the worst of the in car entertainment (hands up who thinks a 24 inch sub woofer works properly in the volume of air inside a car cabin!!), it's not surprising they mistake controlled and well balanced bass, with bass lightness.

Chris L

But there is another point that connected to the money. For example, imagine a person who loves ML and for many years he upgrades his system and pays a lot of money for it.
I think that it is very difficult to such a person (and again, ML is just for the example) to find out that he was wrong all the way and there is another system that sounds better than his. It is also difficult to get read of one system and buy another manufacturer’s system. You have to lose a lot of money to make the change.

There are many people who are convinced that their stereo systems are perfect. Sometimes, friends who are listening to my system are finding faults at mine – although the problem is in their systems.
A good example is a subwoofer. Friends who have awful system (to my opinion) with a subwoofer,
When they are listening to my system they immediately claim against the fact that “I have no bass”,
And this claim “shadows” for them the qualities of my system.

And if you ask the people of Exposure, they’ll tell you that Naim involves too many boxes…

But we must admit that all the different opinions are good for us. If there will be only Naim arround the Globe – to what will we be able to compare our systems?

Arye

Alex

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Originally posted by Alex S.:
There is such a thing as deep, well defined bass!

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I know that! In fact, I consider that my system (despite the tiny ProAc Super Tablette 'speakers) has bass that is well defined, and plenty deep for me.

But, there is also such a thing as flabby, over emphasised bass, which I find is favoured at many shows and shops just now.

What I was meaning to say was that many people (especially in the 18-30 age group) seem to expect exaggerated bass at the moment, and mistake controlled, well defined (but reasonably deep!) bass with, for not enough bass. I'm railing against heavy bass lines, just saying that it should only come out the speakers like that if it's like that on the record/CD.

I should, perhaps, have also said that that's just my experience, and may simply reflect on some of my idiot friends and colleagues

Chris L

For me, whilst Naim is a great, involving and invigorating sound, it isn't quite my cup of tea. It's a bit like a good curry - bog standard is easy and most people will enjoy it, but a truly outstanding curry runs the risk of being a different experience altogether, which some may not take to. Naim is a bit like that - very good at what it does but not to everyone's taste.

Sonically, Naim delivers. I've heard all manner of different systems in the past, but Naim can at the least hold its head high amongst the best of them, if not quite reaching the pinnacle of performance.

I went down a different path, equally valid and at least on a par for the flat-earth elements - except I still have round-earth tendencies and in my experience it is often necessary to look elsewhere to find round-earth excellence without sacrificing the flat-earth firmament. I chose DNM, as the best balance for my tastes - perhaps not to everyone's tastes, however, it's a much more multi-faceted sound which is more transparent. True FE-heads may prefer a little more solidity, or the automation that Naim offers - remotes, etc.

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Why do other Hi-Fi nuts not like Linn / Naim gear ?

What about Meridian / Quad / Krell / valves he asked etc.?

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Linn is easy - it can sound a bit lacklustre to some ears. Naim is more difficult, as it's a very involving sound. However, I have heard it sound nasal, edgy, nervous, screechy and migraine-inducing in some systems. In others it just worked well. It would depend how often and to what degree of exposure one has had with Naim systems as a non-Naim owner. Meridian - heard it sound good. Can't say much for Quad amps and Krell sounded a bit soulless. Valves can be great or they can be fuzzy and indistinct. The antithesis of Naim, you might say.

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I explained about the music in the whole being more important than the music in the detail, and the 'enjoyment' factor over clinical accuracy, and the ability to follow the pace and rhythm of a tune.

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Very important facets. However, in a truly great system (as opposed to merely competent) the 'tune' and the 'detail' are both evident, but to the extent that they become one again. Pace and rhythm are of course important, but then no more so than tone and timbre, although this weighting varies depending on your musical tastes. In some ways, it's not the PRaT that let some systems down, it's the tonal accuracy, pitch, shape of notes and texture. This is one area where Naim seems to me to be merely competent - no case to answer, but neither anything to write home about. The American high-end seem to be more biased in this direction than Naim (or Linn).

However, a great system has it all. I suspect that this is why 52 owners rave about the 52 - I would imagine that the lack of excellence in the timbre, shaping and texture is reversed at this level - certainly, it's one of the main reasons I chose my DNM over the 82/SC (the others being round-earth virtues, personal enjoyment factors and of course the price).

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These sound like good and desirable things.

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Indeed!

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why do other people NOT like Naim sounds ?

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Aside from my comments re: the tendency for some systems to sound screechy and migraine inducing, the lack of bass (but what bass!) and the lack of superb texturing, note shape, timbre and transparency, perhaps some people are put off by the following:

A perception that Naim is 'odd-ball': not so pretty (500 excepted), DIN plugs, loads of PSUs, expensive for perceived material value, individuality, etc. Much as for my DNM, in fact!

Cost: Naim ain't cheap, and although a Nait-2 is a cracking amp, it won't drive everything, thus necessitating spending a lot of money on pre:power solutions.

Compatibility issues: maybe some owners think it won't work, therefore don't go to the hassle of trying it out.

...and so on.

In a nutshell, Naim is a very particular sound that won't suit everyone, and the nature of the system being a little bit unusual will put some off, as will the cost, the perceived incompatibility with existing kit, bad dealer demos and so on.

In fact, exactly the same reasons why people would be put off the DNM amps that I went for.

So, it just goes to show that it's all about choice, and Naim certainly aren't the only choice if you want a great sound...

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

I really feel sorry for those who feel the need to seek alternatives. Especially those who have a real interest in music (unlike some of the tonally challenged unfortunate saddos here who just wanna talk about boxes and wouldn't know a well played instrument if it hit them on the head ).

I reckon that if dealers paid more attention to setup and mains supply and earthing issues I'm sure they'd shift nothing else but Naim gear.

P

Is that Radox or Super Matey ?????

Arye

Some Naimies try to fix these shortcomings with non-Naim interconnects and speaker cables.

- GregB

Insert Witty Signature Line Here