Genuine patriotism?
Posted by: manicatel on 24 June 2006
All this recent english flag waving has confused me.
We english do seem to be getting more & more patriotic, but only for events,eg footy & royal pageantry, but I'm not sure that there is a feeling of genuine patriotism for the country as a whole. I think its a bit of a shame. I'm not particularly proud of being english, but wish I was, if that makes sense. I see the way that a lot of nationalities have a pride in their country & even region. The French, Spanish, Italians, as well as the more obvious flag waving/wearing americans & aussies,for example. This seems to be instilled from a young age, & lasts longer than up to the point that their footy team gets knocked out of a tournament.
Why is English patriotism relatively shallow & fleeting? And why is our flag waving labelled racist as opposed to loyal patriotism? What would it take for the English to be as wholly & genuinely patriotic as the afore mentioned citizens?
matt.
We english do seem to be getting more & more patriotic, but only for events,eg footy & royal pageantry, but I'm not sure that there is a feeling of genuine patriotism for the country as a whole. I think its a bit of a shame. I'm not particularly proud of being english, but wish I was, if that makes sense. I see the way that a lot of nationalities have a pride in their country & even region. The French, Spanish, Italians, as well as the more obvious flag waving/wearing americans & aussies,for example. This seems to be instilled from a young age, & lasts longer than up to the point that their footy team gets knocked out of a tournament.
Why is English patriotism relatively shallow & fleeting? And why is our flag waving labelled racist as opposed to loyal patriotism? What would it take for the English to be as wholly & genuinely patriotic as the afore mentioned citizens?
matt.
Posted on: 24 June 2006 by Steve G
quote:Originally posted by manicatel:
And why is our flag waving labelled racist as opposed to loyal patriotism?
I for one can't see why England fans flying English flags could be deemed racist, however there do appear to be a lot of folks out there just looking for something to be offended about.
Posted on: 24 June 2006 by u5227470736789439
Surely this Cross Of Saint George business, every time time the World Cup comes round, is quite parallel to the tendency most people have of marking Christmas. Marking Christmas no more marks out a person as a Christian than driving round with a Saint George's flag marks a person out as a BNP supporter, or even a loyal patriot. In fact it seems like harmless fun to me, and all to be forgotten as soon as our team returns home.
It is strange the way patriotism is rather low key in England at least, but this is nothing new, I would think. I cannot see how it would be possible to measure patriotism as such, so how would it be possible to tell if we are patriotic in any genuine way, or to what degree this may have changed over time. In fact I wonder if it might seem reasonable to suppose it may have declined as people become less respectful of others and society as a whole. I am not sure that necessarily follows either, though it might seem to run in parallel...
Other countries manage a bigger show of patriotism, but is the actual heart of this any stronger or weaker than here? I don't know.
Fredrik
It is strange the way patriotism is rather low key in England at least, but this is nothing new, I would think. I cannot see how it would be possible to measure patriotism as such, so how would it be possible to tell if we are patriotic in any genuine way, or to what degree this may have changed over time. In fact I wonder if it might seem reasonable to suppose it may have declined as people become less respectful of others and society as a whole. I am not sure that necessarily follows either, though it might seem to run in parallel...
Other countries manage a bigger show of patriotism, but is the actual heart of this any stronger or weaker than here? I don't know.
Fredrik
Posted on: 24 June 2006 by BigH47
Is the patriotism any more "real" in other countries that raise and sing to the flag every day and at every sporting event? Does that not tend to come over as an excessive gung ho attitude?
It seems to me that it is only recently that the english have found that the St George's flag is theirs and not the Union Flag.Not a mistake the Irish,Welsh and Scots would make.
Howard (without a flag on his german car).
It seems to me that it is only recently that the english have found that the St George's flag is theirs and not the Union Flag.Not a mistake the Irish,Welsh and Scots would make.
Howard (without a flag on his german car).
Posted on: 24 June 2006 by manicatel
Big H said
Exactly how I feel. Until a few years ago, if someone had asked me, I was British, & my flag was the union jack. Now, I'm English, & my flag is the st.georges cross. All I've got to do now is find out who st. george was, hypothetically.
matt.
quote:It seems to me that it is only recently that the english have found that the St George's flag is theirs and not the Union Flag.Not a mistake the Irish,Welsh and Scots would make.
Exactly how I feel. Until a few years ago, if someone had asked me, I was British, & my flag was the union jack. Now, I'm English, & my flag is the st.georges cross. All I've got to do now is find out who st. george was, hypothetically.
matt.
Posted on: 24 June 2006 by Nigel Cavendish
In England it seems we get this outbreak of nationalism (not patriotism) only when there is some big footie competition.
Never happens for cricket, tennis, hockey, badminton, atheletics, swimming etc.....
Never happens for cricket, tennis, hockey, badminton, atheletics, swimming etc.....
Posted on: 26 June 2006 by Steve G
quote:Originally posted by Nigel Cavendish:
In England it seems we get this outbreak of nationalism (not patriotism) only when there is some big footie competition.
Never happens for cricket, tennis, hockey, badminton, atheletics, swimming etc.....
It's happened for Rugby occasionally. Most of the the other sports mentioned aren't usually team sports with an England team (except for the commonwealth games).
Posted on: 26 June 2006 by Nigel Cavendish
My point is that this so called patriotism is a sham.
Posted on: 26 June 2006 by Derek Wright
This flag waving is an extension of the Diana death syndrome - excessive outpourings of uncritical public emotion (hysteria) by people who consider it more important to do as their neighbours do rather than think critically about the actions and how unsuitable they are.
A sad result of the dumbing down and loss of stoicism in this country.
A sad result of the dumbing down and loss of stoicism in this country.
Posted on: 26 June 2006 by JoeH
quote:Originally posted by Derek Wright:
This flag waving is an extension of the Diana death syndrome - excessive outpourings of uncritical public emotion (hysteria) by people who consider it more important to do as their neighbours do rather than think critically about the actions and how unsuitable they are.
A sad result of the dumbing down and loss of stoicism in this country.
I think it was ever thus. Think of the VE celebrations, or the Armistice Day celebrations in 1918, or the hysteria that greeted the relief of Mafeking. Television has simply given such goings-on the oxygen of publicity.
Posted on: 26 June 2006 by JoeH
quote:Originally posted by Nigel Cavendish:
In England it seems we get this outbreak of nationalism (not patriotism) only when there is some big footie competition.
Never happens for cricket, tennis, hockey, badminton, atheletics, swimming etc.....
Presumably you missed the celebrations when we won the Ashes and the Rugby World Cup? I doubt that we win enough in the other events you mention to warrant flag-waving.
Posted on: 26 June 2006 by nicnaim
I was very struck by a comment made by the daughter of the B&B owner, where we stayed in Dusseldorf during my recent trip for the World Cup.
She said that it was really the first time since the war, that Germans had felt comfortable about flying national flags, and that the younger generation were finally starting to lose that guilt/embarrassment.
Although there were a lot of flags being hung from homes and cars, it was nothing like the density in England.
Nic
She said that it was really the first time since the war, that Germans had felt comfortable about flying national flags, and that the younger generation were finally starting to lose that guilt/embarrassment.
Although there were a lot of flags being hung from homes and cars, it was nothing like the density in England.
Nic
Posted on: 26 June 2006 by Nigel Cavendish
quote:]
Presumably you missed the celebrations when we won the Ashes and the Rugby World Cup? I doubt that we win enough in the other events you mention to warrant flag-waving.
My point exactly. We only get "patriotic" when we begin some "important" sporting competition, and continue to be "patriotic" until such time as we lose, or, win. After that, all the flags disappear.
Sport based patriotism is a sham and more often than not displayed by those who represent least the values of our country.
Posted on: 26 June 2006 by Steve G
quote:Originally posted by Nigel Cavendish:
Sport based patriotism is a sham and more often than not displayed by those who represent least the values of our country.
Well at least most of them are out of jail now...
Posted on: 26 June 2006 by Rasher
I have an Italian friend who love Alfa Romeos, supports Italy in sporting events, eats at Italian restuarants etc etc. A patriotic Italian. My wife's cousins are American. Same thing again. They are proud to be the Nationality that they are.
Unfortunately I don't see English flag waving is patriotism because I don't believe the majority are proud to be English. I think people would like to be, but they find little to be proud of. Right or wrong, that's what I see is the problem.
Unfortunately I don't see English flag waving is patriotism because I don't believe the majority are proud to be English. I think people would like to be, but they find little to be proud of. Right or wrong, that's what I see is the problem.