Dvořák Eight

Dear George,

I'm very pleased you enjoy the disc. The 8th is probably my favourite among his symphonies. In two weeks time I'm going to a concert of it given by an amateur orchestra for which some friends of mine play, and I can't wait.

It may interest to know that Dvorak is intimately linked to how Mackerras came to study with Talich. He come to England from Australia shortly after the war. He was sitting in a cafe reading through a score of a Dvorak symphony (possibly the 6th) when someone came up to him and said 'I see you're reading the music of my countryman'. He was then encouraged to apply for the British Council scholarship which sent him to Prague.

I would recommend that anyone seeking out this recording gets this particular Classics for Pleasure double (which also has the 7th and 9th). It's also worth noting that he has since rerecorded some of the symphonies for Supraphon with the Czech Philharmonic. The disc of the sixth symphony (along with The Golden Spinning Wheel tone poem) is wonderful, the disc of 8&9 is currently sitting on my to be listened to shelf...


regards, Tam

Dear Tam,

I shall certainly look out the Classics for Pleasure double, and in time the Suprfon issues. It is wonderful to gain access to such music making. Every bit as fine as the Scottish Chamber Orchestra recordings led by CM of Mozart you played over on Sunday. I think it is often the less promoted artists who are the most full of music. Simon Rattle is far more photogenic than Charles MacKerras, but on musical grounds the advatages are very obviously the other way round!

George

Dear George,

Indeed. I would have taken, for example, Jochum over Karajan any day. And of the current generation prefer Runnicles to Rattle.

That said, Rattle has a sensible taste in teachers. He (along with a great many others) beats a path to Mackerras's door for 'driving lessons' as the Australian calls them, on Janacek. Similarly, he sat in on Runnicles' rehearsals of Gotterdammerung at the Proms last year as he was himself preparing the work.

Actually, Rattle recorded a disc of Dvorak not too long back with the Berlin Philharmonic (four tone poems) and I think it's pretty good.


If you don't mind my hijacking the thread somewhat, I do just want to mention this thread, for those who remember I was not particularly happy with Andrew Davis's recordings of the early symphonies (or the late ones, for that matter, though that was less important since I have some fine recordings of those). Well, I have ended up with a box not recommended there - Vaclav Neumann and the Czech Philharmonic on Supraphon. And very fine is, indeed, I would say the more compelling in the earlier symphonies. I don't know much about Neumann, but I suspect it is possible he also studied with Talich as he was in Prague studying at the right time. The only drawback is the way the discs are split: 1.5 a disc. This seems to be because the box is actually three doubles (comprising 1-3, 4-6 and 7-9). On the first the lengths probably make this unavoidable, on the second two they absolutely do not and so it's more than a little frustrating. A shame, given the quality of the performances.


regards, Tam

Dear Tam,

No problem opening out the thread a little!

All Dvořák's Symphonies are really not enough played or considered. I am fascinated by your recomendation of Neumann in the music. The only recording I had of his was a Suprafon CD of the Smetana'a My Homeland [Ma Vlast], and it sort of put me off Neumann a bit, but that does not make it representative. I have so much to look into, and surely your disc of the Eighth with MacKerras has re-awakened the thought of getting some more [modern] recordings of these symphonies! I have the 1930s HMV series with Talich in transfers on Koch, which are more or less not good as transfers, but present superb music making. This is augemented with the Suprafon recording [the earlier one on nigh silent surface 78s] from about 1950, which is coupled with a delightful account of the Serenade for Strings, which has a string orchestra of hand picked players, and the result is glorious, and surprisingly more relaxed than usual!

If anyone reading this wants to put up their own favourite Dvořák recordings, then please feel free to do so! The more the merrier!

George

Dear George,

As I noted above, I found the Neumann box more compelling in the earlier works, perhaps not co-incidentally those are the ones not duplicated in my collection from the likes of Mackerras, Colin Davis or Giulini but instead only Andrew Davis who doesn't offer must competition, so it may well be that there are other greater readings. Perhaps I should look at Kubelik or Kertesz.

Unfortunately the lower symphonies seem to be unrepresented in Talich's discography.

regards, Tam

The Kertesz set is excellent. It's a great shame that so many fine musicians like him die young. Fortunately some like Mackerras tip the balance - and he just seems to get better. I recently bought his Mozart 38-41 disc with the SCO - wonderful.
The CfP Dvorak with Mackerras is on my (very long) list of discs I intend to buy.
Ken

I have long held the set conducted by Kertesz on Decca LP as my overall favourite symphony cycle and have been re-collecting releases on CD, but for the 8th I remember the performance by Witold Rowicki on Philips as being every bit as good, with more spring to the rhythms in the dance-like sections. Alas I have not yet found it on CD.

Chris

I have to admit, as of late, my enthusiasm for Dvorak has waned to a considerable degree. These days, I find him to be a poor relation to Brahms. Maybe when I've exhausted my appreciation for all of Brahms' chamber works and piano pieces, I can make a fresh start with old Antonin. I loved the 8th and 'New Word" as a youngster but feel I must be lacking in the requisite appreciation of the sturdy Czech rusticness required to find any more than passing enthusiasm in Dvorák's 8th.


I'd like to say, as an aside, that I find it very rewarding to seek out single discs rather than these infernal box sets, which I seem to be allergic to. For a beginner, I think, the idiosyncrasies of the individual symphonies will be lost amongst so much generic packaging and the 'sameness' of one conductor and orchestra. Do we really need all the Dvorák Symphonies ? Would it be better to sample the few finest and then move on to more fertile ground ?,...Borodin, say,?.... I'm looking for a good recording of "Prince Igor" if anyone has any ideas. Sorry to get off track again..


My first foray into Dvorák's sunny 8th was an old lp with Zubin Meta and the La Philharmonic, which was more than serviceable. There is Szell on Sony (though I would not recommend his later effort with EMI).. Not much help, is it ?

Noyes

Dear Noye,

The EMI Cleveland recording of the Eighth iunder Szell is for me a curiosity! One I cannot quite bring myself to part with, but it surely misses the point by a mile! The tempi are right, but the element of almost roughness in the music is completely taken away in the supercharged, chromium-plated performance Szell manages!

I do agree about getting indivdual recoridngs of the symphonies, and I also think that the composer was probably right to suppress the first four symphonies. The reason that Talich never recorded the first four, even though he was as Boult to Elgar in terms of his commitment to the music, was because he was observing Dvořák's wish that Number Five should be regarded as Number One and thus on old records you will see the New World referred to as Number Five, instead of Nine!

If you ever get the chance to buy any of the Talich recordings on Suprafon or transfered from the 1930s HMV record series, you are however in for a treat. The very sound world of the Czech Phil is exactly right for this music. The winds are quite different, and the strings tangy and the string basses robust, but so well in tune. This style was prevalent in Czech lands but was somewhat different even 70 or 80 years ago to that in Vienna for example. It still survives to some extent even nowadays.

Apparently Beecham so rated the Czech Phil that he cited the examples of the New York Phil, the Vienna Phil, and the Czech Phil as his spur for forming the London Phil [in 1932] as a new "world class orchestra!"

But it remains true that Dvořák really seemed to have somewhat declined in my enjoyment, particualrly after learning and actually playing a number of the early symphonies. Now I have narrowed it down to the ones I actually like and hearing Charles MacKerras' recording of Eight, I am ready to reinvestigate!

That from a Bachian! George

George,


I may well seek out the Talich at some future time. I have certainly heard its praises sung from many sources. My estimation of the Szell EMI 8th is similar to yours. I well remember acquiring it many years ago and feeling the same mixture of admiration and disappointment.


Noyes

Well, I've recently been very much enjoying Kubelik's set with the BPO, though in some of the early symphonies I'm not sure he's 100% convinced.

I've also picked up an excellent 3 disc box on DG which contains Kubelik's Bavarian recordings including the slavonic dances, various overtures and electric readings of the four tone poems. I only know the works through Rattle's Berlin recording, which I've always very much enjoyed (and a superb Golden Spinning Wheel from Mackerras and the Czech Phil), but Kubelik leaves Rattle feeling a little dull.

regards, Tam

I've not heard the EMI 8th under Mackerras, but his Supraphon recording with the Prague Symphony is quite good. Mackerras is of course superb in this repertoire.

I also like Talich, Kubelik, Ancerl, Harnoncourt, and even Chung here. A fine work.


--

Just a word of thanks for the recomendation of Mackerras' 7th, 8th and 9th on CfP. It arrived a few days ago and though I think that the 9th is only very good, the 7th and 8th are quite magical. Nice one, George.
Ken

Has anyone tried this set?



I have the 7th, which is my favourite version (so far) - just edging out Kubelik and Davis.

Steve

I listened to this recording on a Radio Three broadcast. The Seventh I mean, and yes, I thought it was superb. At the time the one disc was more or less the same cost as the budget reissue price of the entuire Kubelic cycle, so I guess you can imagine which way I went!

I don't suppose it is super premium price anymore, with luck!

George

quote:

Originally posted by KenM:
I think that the 9th is only very good, the 7th and 8th are quite magical.

That would probably be my assessment of the symphonies as works rather than in specific performances.

regards, Tam

Next month's BBC Music Magazine is waxing lyrical about Marin Alsop's new version of the 9th with the Baltimore Symphony on Naxos. A reviewer wrote that it made him reconsider his previous opinion of the 9th. At around £5, it might be well worth a hearing.
Ken

quote:

Originally posted by Tam:

quote:

Originally posted by KenM:
I think that the 9th is only very good, the 7th and 8th are quite magical.

That would probably be my assessment of the symphonies as works rather than in specific performances.

regards, Tam

Interesting. I agree but I wonder if it's purely down to the exposure that the 9th gets?

Steve

quote:

Originally posted by Steve S1:
Interesting. I agree but I wonder if it's purely down to the exposure that the 9th gets?

I think that is certainly part of it, but even leaving that to one side, I have just never found the work grabs me quite so much.

quote:

Originally posted by KenM:
Next month's BBC Music Magazine is waxing lyrical about Marin Alsop's new version of the 9th with the Baltimore Symphony on Naxos. A reviewer wrote that it made him reconsider his previous opinion of the 9th. At around £5, it might be well worth a hearing.

You mean this one:




It's good, though not in any danger, I don't think, of being great. In some of the faster moments it is particularly exciting and the orchestra play well for her, can't go far wrong for £5. I think it's slightly more compelling than her recent Brahms, which again, was good rather than great. I hope some of the earlier symphonies follow.


regards, Tam

Tam,
I picked up a copy this morning and have listened to it just once but I found it absolutely compelling. I may change my mind but for the time being, this seems to be my preferred version. My first impression is that it is indeed a great performance and I look forward to her further Dvorak releases. Some are planned, according to the booklet, but Naxos don't say which ones.
Regards,
Ken

Glad you enjoyed it so much Ken.

Actually, I was listening for a second time yesterday and I have to say it's moved up in my affections and I would have to agree that it's very good indeed. Not sure it's my preferred choice, then again, not sure I have a preferred choice in this symphony.

They played the slow movement on CD Review this morning and noted that two more discs are due. I would guess we'll be getting 7, 8 and perhaps 6 (or possibly some other couplings). I think she'd do a very interesting account of the first symphony and I'd love to hear what she would do with the tone poems, which in my view are much neglected works.

regards, Tam

quote:

Originally posted by Noye's Fludde:
George,


I may well seek out the Talich at some future time. I have certainly heard its praises sung from many sources.........

Noyes

Slightly off topic but I have recently been given a vinyl set of Talich's 1955 Dvorak Slavonic Dances. A Czech lady I have been working with found them in a junk shop in Amsterdam and thought I might like them. A trip to the Moth machine and these 53 year old lp's were like new. Very musical performances - makes me want to consider getting a proper mono cartridge to hear them at their best.

Chris

Dear Chris,

I have this Suprafon recording on CD, and it is splendid! I once had some of the Czech Phil Talich HMV 78 records from the thirties [from the complete set recorded in Abbey Road during one of the many visits to London the Orchestra and conductor made], so I hoped the late recording would bring the same blend of charm and strength!

It did. This Suprafon Talich set is easily my favourite in the music! My favourite is Number Four which is a sort of gentle minuet.

Thanks for remembering it!

George

Right on topic, I do remember once a broadcast of Eighth Symphony from Vaclv Talich with the Czech Phil from the Suprafon LP of the early fifties, and it is a definate splendid recomendation. I never found that one on CD though ...

I do have the Suprafon reissue of the 1950 recording of the New World Symphony though, and this is a performance so intense it seems close to catching fire! Definately a good way to make the music hang together! That was almost Suprafon's very last direct cut 78 recording [and the tape remark is nothing like so compelling - I had that one for a while as well], but the 78 sides are actually silent surface in this transfer, and slightly better than the early tape of the remake.

George