Blood/organ/bone marrow donation

quote:

Originally posted by GFFJ:
Dear PJT,

Is this opt-in. or opt-out?

If opt-in, then your NZ system seems uterly sane to me.

ATB from George

Yes George it is opt-in - totally up to the individual.

Just to provide a little more perspective. It all seems so logical doesn't it; somebody else benefitting from my organs in the event of them becoming useless to me.

It is (hopefully) the case that none of us have ever had to make or even consider those decisions for real. The truth is that when staring such scenarios in the face many of us, either as patients or relatives, do not always see things so simply. I have seen families just unable to make what appears a logical choice when actually looking at a loved one laid calm and peaceful on the threshold of death. The visceral thought of that body being 'harvested' can be just too much. I would never criticse that decision, or George for feeling he cannot or would not take that step.

In all the debates on euthanasia etc it is also worth bearing in mind that our cool academic distance might make one set of choices appear obvious. It is not always the case on the sharp end of such situations.

Bruce

Donation of body parts and fluids is a fine thing and such an action merits approval. However the decision to do so must remain with the individual and people should not be viewed as a source of spare parts available to the state for harvest. For this reason I think that it should remain that individuals may choose to opt in to all and any donation schemes.

I carry a donor card and I donate blood because I think it is the right thing to do. However were organ / fluid donation mandatory, I recognise that a part of me would want to opt out, not because I don’t believe in donation, but because of the principle that I want to make the positive decision to opt in and not have a situation forced upon me by the state.

I think the core issues may be to do with choice and people’s reaction to forced decisions: the fact that that not everyone is immediately of an altruistic mindset; and that for many people death is not something that is contemplated on a daily basis.

Perhaps when individuals in denial of their mortality are presented with the facts / benefits in a reasoned manner, they may recognise the logic of organ/fluid donation and altruism may follow. However the decision to become a donor is an emotive one, and sometimes people’s reactions may defy logic. Making donation mandatory, supposedly tempered by an opt out clause, would only serve to make things worse.

The choice to become a donor must remain with the individual and be a positive decision that they can choose to make. The solution to increasing the numbers of donors may lie in addressing people’s reluctance to donate though education rather than legislation.

Brad

Unfortunately there is a shortage of organs and eventually it may be necessary to introduce legislation to ensure a steady supply of organs.

Either this, or relax the laws on seatbelts and motorcycle helmets (another Nanny state thing). That would soon increase the stock of younger, healthy organs (apart from those damaged in the accident that caused the organs to be available in the first place that is).

quote:

Originally posted by seagull:
Many years ago I underwent a life saving operation to remove an abscess from my liver and had a complete oil change.

I became a blood donor once I had recovered sufficiently, so hopefully I am in credit again.

Had to stop though due to being permanently being on medication for a heart condition.

I'm not sure which bits of me would be useful to someone else: dodgy heart, damaged liver (see above), scarred lungs (pnuemonia, also see above)...

Something to check ... but I didn't think you could give blood if you'd ever recieved a blood transfusion. I know you say you've stopped giving now anyway - but to anyone else in similar situation I think you should check the situation.

Bits that could still be useful seagull - your eyes for one.

Eloise

you cant give blood if you had a blood transfusion in 1980 or after.

Bruce,

None of what you say is strange or surprising to me, but I think you've made a set of assumptions about George's reasons for not wanting to donate his organs, based on your previous experience. George often has a distinctive and individual slant on things and all heated arguments aside, I'm really curious to hear what his reason's actually are.

How common is it by the way for people to refuse to receive transplants and even transfusions, apart from on religious grounds, when the chances of a successful outcome are good?

quote:

Originally posted by 151:
you cant give blood if you had a blood transfusion in 1980 or after.

This was introduced in 2004 (see Can I Give Blood) I was already an ex-donor by then.

I did check that it would be ok with both my GP and the Transfusion Service before I started. The medical staff all seemed to be more interested in the story behind my liver abcess (not a common condition aparently and not often survived) than whether having had a blood transfusion being an issue.

Just an observation but am I alone in feeling uneasy about advocating that the state can make claim on my organs?

Other regimes have been down this road..........

Svetty,

You're by no means alone, but what exactly do you think there is to fear?

I don't mean,vague feelings of uneasiness or overtones of real or fictional dystopias. I mean actual dangers. If 'other regimes have been down this road', then when these other regimes adopted an opt out policy for organ donation, what were the negative results implied by the trail of full stops at the end of your post?

Or are you suggesting that an opt out policy on organ donation is a step on the road to the death camps?

quote:

Originally posted by David Scott?:
Bruce,

None of what you say is strange or surprising to me, but I think you've made a set of assumptions about George's reasons for not wanting to donate his organs, based on your previous experience. George often has a distinctive and individual slant on things and all heated arguments aside, I'm really curious to hear what his reason's actually are.

How common is it by the way for people to refuse to receive transplants and even transfusions, apart from on religious grounds, when the chances of a successful outcome are good?

Fair enough. I was just pointing out these decisions may not always be as clear as we think. Sorry for suggesting this applies to GFFJ

As for the second question, I can certainly think of situations were patients have declined to take the risk of a transplant (rather than refuse on principle). Perhaps not quite what you mean.

Bruce

Thanks Bruce,

David

Dear David [Scott?],

I was going to reply to you post[s] in replay to me.

It seems that others have perfectly expressed what I would have since this morning, so no reason to restate. I wish you had not been personal in your comments though. The debate has legs as a question of opinions without resorting to being personal [IMO], as does the one about assisted suicide, which I am profoundly against. When it is time to die, then it is indeed time. To ask for help is crazy. What is asked is for another to assist in taking a life. No one can predict how anyone will react after having done so.

My view tends to be that when the time comes for death then accept it, and the various readings put on it by you and others on my position about transplants and blood donation characterized my view wrongly. It has nothing to do with religion [though naturally it must have been focused through that lense in my case] and nothing to do with some wish to reduce the population of the world!

Indeed the suggestion was that I preferred objects to people - if you knew me personally, you would soon realise this is entirely the opposite of the truth! The trouble is that none of us can begin to guess through the lense of the Internet what anyone here is actually like! So I will take you comment that I "must be alright really" as my remembered comment from you in this conversation.

Best wishes from George

posted by gffJ

quote:

It has nothing to do with religion [though naturally it must have been focused through that lense in my case] and nothing to do with some wish to reduce the population of the world!

so what is it george?

Stu!

Don't prescribe to me! I am old enough to have seen it as well. DO NOT PRESCRIBE TO ME.

We all have our life's experiences and inevitably they are different, and just as inevitably our personal reactions are different. I have seen one grandmother die, and my other did the same in like fashion. Both departed at utter peace, without any struggle. I hope to emulate them. I am completely certain that I shall, when the time comes.

We may disagree, but never prescribe to me again.

You do not know me nearly well enough to be in a position to. I surprised a Surgeon as early as the age of fifteen on this [in my own case] ...

George

From your perpective. Please don't judge everyone by what is correct for you.

George

Dear Stu,

My father, and my English grandfather both struggled. My Norwegian grandfather was as peaceful as my Norwegian grandmother. It depends on being at peace in your heart. I have done enough to count the rest as a bonus to be enjoyed given the chance, and am profoundly at peace.

Of course I will feel it badly when my old and young friends die. You know this, and possibly of whom I speak, but I know that my oldest friend is ready and peaceful - as was her late husband. Neither wanted it to come before necessary, but both accepted it as a passing forward. Of course this may be an irrational view for some, but never mind. I share the serenity of it, and am grateful for their wisdom passed on as advice, not a prescription.

All the best from George

george,if your life is happy why would you not take blood or an organ to prolong it,if you dont want to answer o.k. regards

I am not greedy. When the time comes there is no reason to prolong it!

I was thinking of the time when I was taking the mother of a friend seven years younger than me, who had liver cancer, to visit him in hospital. He was a good friend, but his mother could not drive. Such was our obvious friendship that the surgeon spoke to me, rather than my friend's mother about the prognosis. I was tasked to break it gently …

Anyway two days before he died we had a grand time just the two of us! I took two posh glass bottles of Coca Cola, and I took him into the garden [of the hospital] and we went outside in the sun in a wheel chair. He said to me that he should be at home! Never mind this doctoring lark! He knew what as going wrong, and knew it was the answer to make his peace, which he did! We enjoyed our faux beer, and he smoked his first cigarette in his life and enjoyed it! I saw the last time next day, and he calmly said to me, “Goodbye, old friend.”

It is possible to know when to fight and when to acquiesce. This may be the wisest lesson any of us can possibly learn ...

ATB from George

george,why do you think its time to go just because you need a little blood or the odd organ,i would have to fight my kids,grandkids and wife would make me and i would if not for me,for them.atb

George,

You've just said

quote:

My view tends to be that when the time comes for death then accept it, and the various readings put on it by you and others on my position about transplants and blood donation characterized my view wrongly

But what I and others were reacting to is your original statement that

quote:

I would neither accept an organ or blood.

which seems to state quite categorically that if you were ever in a position where a transplant or blood transfusion were needed to save your life, you would refuse it. Now you seem to be proposing a more complex position, which is presumably what you meant all along, but you can surely see how confusion might arise.

The thing that really interests me though is the last part of that same post where you say

quote:

You may imagine that I do not carry a Donor-card ... and be right.

which suggests that your conviction that there is a right time to die extends to refusing to allow your organs to be used for other people, some of whom may be the young, healthy and happy victims of accidents, who could be restored to vigourous good health. Is it their time to die? Would you let your organs be used to save them?

Dear 151,

I made a decision at nineteen to refrain from fathering children. Okay that was on the rebound, but I see no reason to alter my view. My father's family has thrown a remarkable number of unpleasant, violent, psychologically bullying [not to mention physically], and deeply selfish people, so I made a reasonable guess that this was genetic. I am an oddball in our family, being so gentle, and prone to very deep and completely committed friendship. Not many friends, but enough to enough to live life in a kind way.

It has been known for throwbacks to happen!

That was the context for having precisely no familial responsibilities.

A conscious decision taken early in life, but later than by intuition saying absolutely not to the possibility of bone cancer treatment to a surgeon. As it proved the ailment was actually an infected hip joint, but for a day or two it was suspected cancer because of X-rays and white cell count ...

My sanguine approach astonished the surgeon, but even then I could not be forced to receive surgery. I had learned the lesson about grace in demise. As I say, it is possibly the wisest lesson in life to learn. And with no family to be responsible for, an easy decision then as now.

ATB from George

Dear David [Scott?],

I would never receive a donor organ or blood.

The only conceivable situation where I would donate an organ is if I matched my nephew or niece, and it would save their life.

Otherwise, it is quite simple. It would be their decision to receive what I might be able to give. That fine point may or may not be seen as significant. One friend of mine gave a kidney to his mother. I applauded that.

ATB from George

george,thats an awful story,but i feel that when you have a family the choice is not just yours. atb

For family, the decision is the recipient's, IMHO.

ATB from George