Fraim levels sound
Posted by: Adolfo Aguiar on 11 September 2001
In another thread on Fraim, someone (I guess Dave Dever) pointed out that CDSII or LP12 sounded better in level 3 with no glass on level 2 and NAC52 on level 1.
Questions :
1. Fraim was setup like that because it was supposed to be demonstrated as a 3-tier stand or because Naim found that this configuration sounds best?
2. Are the spaces between shelves enough to house pre-amp and PS in consecutive levels?
3. I've seen tips here and there on how to tune Fraim. Is it possible for Naim to produce a "best practices manual" for Fraim assembly?
Questions :
1. Fraim was setup like that because it was supposed to be demonstrated as a 3-tier stand or because Naim found that this configuration sounds best?
2. Are the spaces between shelves enough to house pre-amp and PS in consecutive levels?
3. I've seen tips here and there on how to tune Fraim. Is it possible for Naim to produce a "best practices manual" for Fraim assembly?
Posted on: 12 September 2001 by David Dever
quote:
In another thread on Fraim, someone (I guess Dave Dever) pointed out that CDSII or LP12 sounded better in level 3 with no glass on level 2 and NAC52 on level 1.
...best with no components underneath; I believe that Naim was using CDS II / blank level / NAC 52 / blank level / base. I'm not the definitive source on this, nor do I have room for six racks in my living room (just four, thanks).
Due to space limitations, my SNAXO 3-6 lives at the bottom of my CDS II rack:
CDS 2
------
empty
------
SNAXO
------
------
preceded (left ro right) by
LP12
------
empty
------
NAC 52
------
------
...all standard spacing. An extra shelf level under the SNAXO might help, though I do have suspended wood floors...
Dave Dever, NANA
Posted on: 12 September 2001 by P
Oh dear
This could be expensive!
Or is that the point?
P.
Quite happy with a 5 tier Fraim going CDS2/52/XPS/Supercap/135/135 into SBLs and no blank spaces.
Thank you very much
Posted on: 12 September 2001 by Clive B
As I pointed out in an earlier post, empty shelves would most adversely affect the WAF!
Fraims still doing the business...
Regards, CB
Posted on: 14 September 2001 by Bosh
Clive
Apart from cost and floorspace is there a reason why the LP12 is not on FRAIM?
Posted on: 14 September 2001 by Mike Hanson
quote:
Quite happy with a 5 tier Fraim going CDS2/52/XPS/Supercap/135/135 into SBLs and no blank spaces.
I assume that 5-tier plus the base, since you do have 6 boxes there. 
-=> Mike Hanson <=-
Posted on: 14 September 2001 by P
OK.
Actually Mike my system is floating above the ground..... all on its own.....Kinda
P.
[This message was edited by P on SATURDAY 15 September 2001 at 08:33.]
Posted on: 14 September 2001 by Mike Hanson
Yup, Base+5. 
Nice living room, btw.
Nice living room, btw.-=> Mike Hanson <=-
Posted on: 14 December 2003 by Thomas K
quote:
CDSII or LP12 sounded better in level 3 with no glass on level 2 and NAC52 on level 1.
Does anyone know whether this is a trade-off, i.e. you're improving the source but degrading the performance of the pre, or do both components benefit from this? (I doubt the latter is true since the second shelf offers more isolation than the first.)
I suspect the gains are brought about by the top shelf "seeing" less weight underneath -- what you get is a source improvement that outweighs the preamp degradation. (?)
Thomas
Posted on: 15 December 2003 by Furnace
"I suspect the gains are brought about by the top shelf "seeing" less weight underneath -- what you get is a source improvement that outweighs the preamp degradation. (?)"
So the empty shelf trick works because the source "looks down" will see nothing below it
but similarly the pre will look up and see nothing above it,so both will benefit if we
follow your logic. (I just hope they don't start looking to the side to see what all else
you've put there....)
So the empty shelf trick works because the source "looks down" will see nothing below it
but similarly the pre will look up and see nothing above it,so both will benefit if we
follow your logic. (I just hope they don't start looking to the side to see what all else
you've put there....)
Posted on: 16 December 2003 by Thomas K
Hello Furnace,
From intuition I would say it doesn't matter what's above a shelf, or at least that it's better to have an empty shelf below than one above (i.e. if you had only one component in a 5-tier Fraim it would most certainly be better to place it at the top than at the bottom, even though it "sees" four empty shelves either way).
Thomas
From intuition I would say it doesn't matter what's above a shelf, or at least that it's better to have an empty shelf below than one above (i.e. if you had only one component in a 5-tier Fraim it would most certainly be better to place it at the top than at the bottom, even though it "sees" four empty shelves either way).
Thomas
Posted on: 16 December 2003 by vimal
Has anyone tried a single component per 5 tier, 4tier or 3 tier.
At this rate we could surround the whole room with Fraim.
At this rate we could surround the whole room with Fraim.
Posted on: 16 December 2003 by AL4N
quote:
Originally posted by vimal:
Has anyone tried a single component per 5 tier, 4tier or 3 tier.
At this rate we could surround the whole room with Fraim.
would it be possible to space the Fraim shelves with 3 MA*A shelves per space?Obviously these would have to be empty.
Posted on: 18 December 2003 by Martin Payne
quote:
Originally posted by David Dever:
Due to space limitations, my SNAXO 3-6 lives at the bottom of my CDS II rack:
CDS 2
------
empty
------
SNAXO
------
------
Dave,
Naim UK have confirmed to me that the base level doesn't sound as good the upper levels.
I guess that leaving the bottom level empty is the "phase 2" of Fraim.
Is there benefit in leaving a gap between the CDS & other items?
cheers, Martin
E-mail:- MartinPayne (at) Dial.Pipex.com. Put "Naim" in the title.
Posted on: 18 December 2003 by dave simpson
quote:Is there benefit in leaving a gap between the CDS & other items?
Large improvement in the "realism" department Martin. So much of an improvement, I'm willing to sacrifice my NAT 101's performance for my CDS (the CDS gets what would have been the 101's shelf as an empty shelf underneath). Well worth the cost of an additional shelf (or sacrificing a secondary source).
hth,
dave
Posted on: 19 December 2003 by Thomas K
quote:
Is there benefit in leaving a gap between the CDS & other items?
Well, Dave Simpson seems to think so and I now do too. After going back to passive I had one shelf left over (which is why I asked the question a couple of posts up). A couple of days ago I changed from
CDS2 head unit
52
empty
to
CDS2 head unit
empty
52
It sounded more detailed at first, but also grated a bit. I suspected the grating treble came from me not unplugging the Burndy which then suffered torsional stress (what waffle, eh?) when I moved the stuff around. A quick unlock/shake/lock fixed that.
There is no question, I should think, that in absolute terms the higher Fraim shelves always sound better. Because of the Burndy problem I can't *really* say whether moving the 52 down one shelf would always be an improvement when a source component is on top (oooh), but I can say that CD replay now sounds better than ever, with punch and very good timing, while DVD replay through the 52 (w/o any changes to where the DVD player sits) sounds slightly less detailed.
Thomas
Posted on: 19 December 2003 by Basil
Nice SBL's
Posted on: 19 December 2003 by P
Thanks
Things have changed ever so slightly since then though the SBLs still remain.
P
Things have changed ever so slightly since then though the SBLs still remain.
P
Posted on: 21 December 2003 by vimal
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Is there benefit in leaving a gap between the CDS & other items?
Large improvement in the "realism" department Martin. So much of an improvement, I'm willing to sacrifice my NAT 101's performance for my CDS (the CDS gets what would have been the 101's shelf as an empty shelf underneath). Well worth the cost of an additional shelf (or sacrificing a secondary source).
hth,
dave
So to recap we buy shelves at £350 and leave it empty,to increase the performance.
I knew I was doing something wrong.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Is there benefit in leaving a gap between the CDS & other items?
Large improvement in the "realism" department Martin. So much of an improvement, I'm willing to sacrifice my NAT 101's performance for my CDS (the CDS gets what would have been the 101's shelf as an empty shelf underneath). Well worth the cost of an additional shelf (or sacrificing a secondary source).
hth,
dave
So to recap we buy shelves at £350 and leave it empty,to increase the performance.
I knew I was doing something wrong.
Posted on: 21 December 2003 by dave simpson
quote:So to recap we buy shelves at £350 and leave it empty,to increase the performance.
That's correct.
regards,
dave
Posted on: 22 December 2003 by Martin Payne
quote:
Originally posted by dave simpson:
Large improvement in the "realism" department Martin. ... Well worth the cost of an additional shelf (or sacrificing a secondary source).
Dave,
OK, thanks for that.
Just to confirm, the component below the space is a preamp or similar (i.e. not a powered / transformer component)?
cheers, Martin
E-mail:- MartinPayne (at) Dial.Pipex.com. Put "Naim" in the title.
Posted on: 22 December 2003 by dave simpson
Your welcome Martin.
"Just to confirm, the component below the space is a preamp or similar (i.e. not a powered / transformer component)?"
That is correct...
To recap: Standard placement rules apply with trannied components on a rack to the right, non-trannies on a rack to the left, and an improvement to overall system performance can be gained by leaving an empty shelf under each source component as well as the preamp module itself (i.e., 52 head unit).
hth,
dave
[This message was edited by dave simpson on TUESDAY 23 December 2003 at 03:11.]
"Just to confirm, the component below the space is a preamp or similar (i.e. not a powered / transformer component)?"
That is correct...
To recap: Standard placement rules apply with trannied components on a rack to the right, non-trannies on a rack to the left, and an improvement to overall system performance can be gained by leaving an empty shelf under each source component as well as the preamp module itself (i.e., 52 head unit).
hth,
dave
[This message was edited by dave simpson on TUESDAY 23 December 2003 at 03:11.]
Posted on: 22 December 2003 by Philip Pang
Empty Spaces on A Fraim
Ouch!
Good listening; the music's groovin' frightfully more.
Rgds
Philip
naimniac for life
quote:
and an improvement to overall system performance can be gained by leaving an empty shelf under each source component as well as the preamp module itself
Ouch!
Good listening; the music's groovin' frightfully more.
Rgds
Philip
naimniac for life
Posted on: 23 December 2003 by Furnace
Empty Spaces on A Fraim
The empty space is not wasted .... you can place non- hi-fi items
on the empty shelfs.... newspapers,car keys, the remote etc ....
now where did I leave that sandwich ? is it under the HiCap or the
pre-amp ?!!!
The empty space is not wasted .... you can place non- hi-fi items
on the empty shelfs.... newspapers,car keys, the remote etc ....
now where did I leave that sandwich ? is it under the HiCap or the
pre-amp ?!!!
Posted on: 23 December 2003 by dave simpson
quote:
The empty space is not wasted .... you can place non- hi-fi items
on the empty shelfs.... newspapers,car keys, the remote etc ....
now where did I leave that sandwich ? is it under the HiCap or the
pre-amp ?!!!
LOL...I don't think that's a good idea unless your sandwich is low mass;-)
regards,
dave
Posted on: 24 December 2003 by vimal
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The empty space is not wasted .... you can place non- hi-fi items
on the empty shelfs.... newspapers,car keys, the remote etc ....
now where did I leave that sandwich ? is it under the HiCap or the
pre-amp ?!!!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why not use it to store cds and vinyl,like the modular units from the 60s and 70s.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The empty space is not wasted .... you can place non- hi-fi items
on the empty shelfs.... newspapers,car keys, the remote etc ....
now where did I leave that sandwich ? is it under the HiCap or the
pre-amp ?!!!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why not use it to store cds and vinyl,like the modular units from the 60s and 70s.