Best ripper? Best Player?

Posted by: tuexoqu on 14 September 2009

Hello,
probably I will buy the new Naim DAC
And this is the news!!!
Now,
I want to transform all my CD collection in WAV (16 bit - 44,1 Khz).
Which is the best ripper in your opinion?
Someone says EAC, someone CDEX, WinAmp pro.

And then, which is the best player? Foobar? WinAmp? ...

And then, which is the best MusicKernel?
Asio4All?

thankyou

Posted on: 15 September 2009 by DaveBk

iTunes is not my choice either, but I'd prefer a iTunes 44.1/16 rip to one that's all mashed about to 48/16!

Posted on: 15 September 2009 by pcstockton

Dave and others,

This is a good reason to use a proper ripping program rather than a popular music player. I dont think I can ask EAC to rip to anything other than 16/44. For good reason.

-patrick

Posted on: 15 September 2009 by u5227470736789439

My iTunes has about 15 mp3 files and over 6700 files in Apple lossless, and all these lossless files came from from CDs and are at 16/44

Why would one aim to do anything differnt to that from CDs?

I find the results prefereable to direct played CDs on several levels - probably the most significant is a seeming and persistent feeling that the result is giving me more or the nuance of performance than the CDs played directly - used to.

The major advantage however is that no music is easier to find than any other in the sense of physically finding the discs.

The search engine in iTunes is splendid, and I wondered if I might tend to stick to the more central repertoire even so.

Not a bit of it! I am dusting of the less obvious corners of 512 CDs [transfered, based on an idea that they must be something like an average of 70 minutes long each, and the total time the files transfered], even to the point of investigating music locked in very big sets, which are physically a proper nuisance! Try finding tracks 7 to 10 on disc 33 of 50!

Easier indeed to type in Beethoven Flute Sonata!

ATB from George

Posted on: 15 September 2009 by pcstockton

George,

You are experiencing, first hand, the beauty of a DA solution. Cheers!!!

I came on this Forum a year and a half ago with this exact type of passion about DA replay. Which was generally and summarily eschewed.
I am so happy now that Naim have entered the realm (mostly due to the HDX), people are starting to get it.

I recall saying specifically that with a properly set-up computer and a good external DAC, one could approach the quality of a good CD player.

I also recall Dave Dever responding with something to this effect (if not exactly):
"I wish that were true but it is just not so."

Now with a PC to M-Audio Transit to Naim DAC (or other), it appears we are approaching exactly that.

I remember I joined the Forum so I could ask two questions. One concerned whether I should go for a 122/150 (used) or a 102/180. The other was looking for advice on which external DAC was most used in a Naim kit. The Beresford was about the only suggestion and I went with it. I am still very pelased with it but cannot wait until i have a Naim DAC on the Eina.

Then it is on to Isoblue for sure. I love that rack. In fact it is the only "proper" rack I have seen that i like the looks of.

-Patrick

Posted on: 15 September 2009 by T38.45

quote:
Originally posted by GFFJ:
My iTunes has about 15 mp3 files and over 6700 files in Apple lossless, and all these lossless files came from from CDs and are at 16/44

Why would one aim to do anything differnt to that from CDs?

I find the results prefereable to direct played CDs on several levels - probably the most significant is a seeming and persistent feeling that the result is giving me more or the nuance of performance than the CDs played directly - used to.

The major advantage however is that no music is easier to find than any other in the sense of physically finding the discs.

The search engine in iTunes is splendid, and I wondered if I might tend to stick to the more central repertoire even so.

Not a bit of it! I am dusting of the less obvious corners of 512 CDs [transfered, based on an idea that they must be something like an average of 70 minutes long each, and the total time the files transfered], even to the point of investigating music locked in very big sets, which are physically a proper nuisance! Try finding tracks 7 to 10 on disc 33 of 50!

Easier indeed to type in Beethoven Flute Sonata!

ATB from George

George,
thx for this post! So from your point of experience, it doesn't make a difference when i i rip my cd's with itunes to NAS in wav or flac?

Posted on: 16 September 2009 by pcstockton

t38,

iTunes can neither rip to, nor play, FLAC. ALAC is its compressed lossless codec of choice. And no it doesn't matter... to me.

Rip to ALAC and have nice tags. All is well.

-patrick

Posted on: 16 September 2009 by mudwolf

oh my my, I now have the biggest headache after reading all those posts. Why oh why did I click on this? I think I'll put off jumping in for another 6 months and do some research.

But half the problem solved I have Macs so won't consider Windows machines. After all they are both PCs Personal Computers, the flavor of choice is Mac or Windows.

Posted on: 16 September 2009 by pcstockton

quote:
Originally posted by mudwolf:
After all they are both PCs Personal Computers, the flavor of choice is Mac or Windows.

Just like they are all lossless codecs, the flavor of choice is either FLAC, ALAC, or WAV.

If these 10 posts gave you a headache, I would put it off for six years. Naim does make world class CDPs.

-p

Posted on: 16 September 2009 by u5227470736789439

quote:
Originally posted by T38.45:

George,
thx for this post! So from your point of experience, it doesn't make a difference when i i rip my cd's with itunes to NAS in wav or flac?

I am not a computer person, so I need something that is simple enough for me to use, and for it to work well without a great expertise in the inner working of computer systems. My answer here should be read with this in mind, as well as being aware that music is rather important to me, whether from replay, the radio, or live.

As I understand it, if you use iTunes then the best option is to the use the Apple Lossless Codec - ALAC - which allows for the files to be automatically tagged when they are copied to the system, and should give replay of equal quality [hence the lossless designation] to playing WAV files off the computer hard drive. WAV files are not as I undertand it tagged, which "apparently" can lead to a big headache in indexing a very large number of them.

I will not say that iTunes and ALAC are the best thing since sliced bread, and beat all-comers. I simply have not tried all that many options. On the other hand iTunes was the first user interface which I knew with certainty that I could manage. I have an absolute abhorence of album artwork and want my references in the form of a list, which option is easily achieved in iTunes, though it can do the artwork like other systems as well.

On the sonic side, I have found out of over 500 CDs that a total of seven CDs would not copy to the system without a sonic flaws indicating damage to the CD. My solution was to replace those seven discs with newly purchased copies at an average price of 3.50 per CD. On the positive side I made flawless copies of three very rare discs that would not play in any CD player, and as they are deleted, I consider myself very lucky to have clean transfers of them. Incidentally I gave up on EAC because it struck me as completely useless that it could not rescue these very important [artistically and to me personally] CDs while iTunes managed the job. Repalcing them would have cost several hundred pounds such is their rarity. It is not quite as everyone says in respect of iTunes being not as good. In this case it was infinitiely better. But if you are copying discs in good condition it is not clear to me what the compaint about the ultimate quality of iTunes might be. To say this much, it cannot be very much having heard the HDX, which for thousands of pounds [and in a very much better system than mine] possibly gave a marginally better sonic result. For those thousands of pounds I would jolly well hope it was better!

On the quality of replay that can result. Again I have not done extensive tests, but have sampled at length iTunes on a PC with Windows XP on, and at less length iTunes on a Macbook Pro. The Macbook was feeding a Lavry D 10 [please let's not get into another Lavry Wars thing as the result of a simple reproting of an audition], whichj produced very pleasing results, but altogether for me was too expensive to manage to buy.

My PC is simply using a good if quite old sound-card. ASUS make some good modern ones, but clearly my set is more functional than Hifi - at least as considered from the printed word.

However - and speaking as one who first used a Naim CD played in 1999, and owned both a CD3 and a CDS2, as well as having used a CDS3 and a CDi in my own system at home for short periods - I have a fair bench mark of what adequate digital replay is, and of what is possible from CDs.

So I can report that my PC is retrieving musically involving details which seemed to elude the CD replay I knew before from even among the best CD playing machines. I am not saying that the replay is better from the PC, but for me it is certainly more enjoyable. If I could afford a better computer, and HDX is a computer in all but its designation, then no doubt it would be finer again, but very much more expensive.

If your budget is tight and you want a replay of the CDs that is not inferior in enjoyability to very fine CD player based replay then go for iTunes.

If you want more then there is the chance to gather a huge amount of information here about more sophisticated, complicated to set aup and opperate, and certainly more expensive options - from Macbooks with external DACs, to PCs with ASIO drivers [don't ask - it is all Chinese to me], to the HDX [the up and coming Naim DAC], and Linn systems costing thousands, and also in connection with the HDX, the chance to expand the system using a NAS - then you can find your answers here for sure.

Again, I am the last person to ask about the significance of these things. I want something simple to use that works very well. More Skoda than Bentley perhaps, but Skoda cars are no joke these days. In fact if I were buying a new car ...

The only thing that I did not do for myself was install the half terrabite mirrored [self backing up in RAID] pair of Hard Disc Drives in my PC.

Otherwise there was nothing in iTunes that was beyond me to make work very nicely and fine enough in replay terms to be satisfying without the need for me to worry about any need to upgrade.

I hope that helps. A few gallons of cold water common sense maybe, and no soft soap, but a straight response based on my experience over the last months, to a straight question, as I hope it is perceived.

ATB foom George

Posted on: 16 September 2009 by Aleg

quote:
Originally posted by GFFJ:
... and certainly more expensive options - from Macbooks with external DACs, to PCs with ASIO drivers [don't ask - it is all Chinese to me], ...
ATB foom George

Thank you for your thoughtful post George.

Just a side step to give a little explanation on ASIO-drivers:

1. ASIO-drivers are free, so that's not very expensive

ASIO4ALL

2. The purpose of an ASIO-driver is to bypass all the medling that Windows does with audio data. You bypass, lets call it that, Windows Equalizer which still influences the audiodata even though everything is turned off or set to zero. The ASIO-driver connects the musicplayer software directly to your soundcard, so you get the most pure original sound. And I must say it is definitely very, very noticable.
It requires, though, a musicplayer that lets you choose to direct the output to the ASIO-driver. Foobar is my choice and I don't think iTunes lets you choose the output driver (at least I didn't find it).

I hope it wasn't too much of a technology story, but ASIO-drivers are worthwhile.

-
Aleg

Posted on: 16 September 2009 by Aleg

quote:
Originally posted by GFFJ:
...
The only thing that I did not do for myself was install the half terrabite mirrored [self backing up in RAID] pair of Hard Disc Drives in my PC.
...

ATB foom George

Hi George

It's me again

.

There is one remark you made I feel very much compelled to respond to, esp. since you have such valuable (financialy and emotionaly) CD's.

It is the extremely stubborn misconception that RAID is a backup mechanism and provides a copy of your data to fall back on.
It does not.

The only thing RAID protects you from is sudden hardware failure of one the harddrives.
RAID was developed for systems that require high availability, so the system can continue to run on when a drive fails, and again, not for protecting data.

As long as your system runs, every change to your data - be it a deletion by you or somebody/something else, a change or corruption of the data by some program or by falling neutrinos from heaven - gets written to your RAID-disk as well. And your original music data is lost, ... for ever. You will end up with a perfectly copied corrupt music file. So with RAID you will end up with two corrupt files instead of one. How's that for protection

!

I can only advise you to start making true backups using backup software to a backup disk that is external to the computer holding your original data. This can still be done fast (using eSATA if your computer is suited, or USB a little less fast but after the initial backup you won't need to transfer that many bits anymore).
All it requires is some discipline in running your backup software regularly and even that can be made easier by having an automated time-based task running it for you. Most backup software will provide you with this option, so you don't have to figure it out for yourself.

I needed to get this of my chest George, I hope it can help you to setup a more secure data protection.

-
Aleg

Posted on: 16 September 2009 by fixedwheel

quote:
Originally posted by Aleg:
I can only advise you to start making true backups using backup software to a backup disk that is external to the computer holding your original data.

I needed to get this of my chest George, I hope it can help you to setup a more secure data protection.

It's OK Aleg

George also has a 500Gb slimline USB drive that he syncs to the RAID drive.

It also means that he can also access all his library on his notebook PC, and take it with him, to another room or country. The sound quality on the notebook is not as good as the PC, but George still describes it as more than adequate.

Next on the list is to archive all his library out onto some DVDRs for offsite backup.

HTH

John

Posted on: 17 September 2009 by u5227470736789439

Dear Aleg,,

As it is there are already two back-ups.

An external USB drive that is clearly independant of the internal in that is is only connected for backing up, and of course the original CDs, which obviously are being retained.

You are correct to point out the importance of back-up arrangements and that is fair enough, even though it is something I have thought about.

However the point you make about Raid storage is well made, but I do realise exactly what it does - and that is protect against instantaneous failure of one drive. That is why I have an external copy.

ATB from George

Posted on: 17 September 2009 by Aleg

quote:
Originally posted by GFFJ:
Dear Aleg,,

As it is there are already two back-ups.

An external USB drive that is clearly independant of the internal in that is is only connected for backing up, and of course the original CDs, which obviously are being retained.

You are correct to point out the importance of back-up arrangements and that is fair enough, even though it is something I have thought about.

However the point you make about Raid storage is well made, but I do realise exactly what it does - and that is protect against instantaneous failure of one drive. That is why I have an external copy.

ATB from George

I'm glad to hear that, Well done

-
Aleg

Posted on: 17 September 2009 by T38.45

quote:
Originally posted by GFFJ:
quote:
Originally posted by T38.45:

George,
thx for this post! So from your point of experience, it doesn't make a difference when i i rip my cd's with itunes to NAS in wav or flac?

I am not a computer person, so I need something that is simple enough for me to use, and for it to work well without a great expertise in the inner working of computer systems. My answer here should be read with this in mind, as well as being aware that music is rather important to me, whether from replay, the radio, or live.

As I understand it, if you use iTunes then the best option is to the use the Apple Lossless Codec - ALAC - which allows for the files to be automatically tagged when they are copied to the system, and should give replay of equal quality [hence the lossless designation] to playing WAV files off the computer hard drive. WAV files are not as I undertand it tagged, which "apparently" can lead to a big headache in indexing a very large number of them.

I will not say that iTunes and ALAC are the best thing since sliced bread, and beat all-comers. I simply have not tried all that many options. On the other hand iTunes was the first user interface which I knew with certainty that I could manage. I have an absolute abhorence of album artwork and want my references in the form of a list, which option is easily achieved in iTunes, though it can do the artwork like other systems as well.

On the sonic side, I have found out of over 500 CDs that a total of seven CDs would not copy to the system without a sonic flaws indicating damage to the CD. My solution was to replace those seven discs with newly purchased copies at an average price of 3.50 per CD. On the positive side I made flawless copies of three very rare discs that would not play in any CD player, and as they are deleted, I consider myself very lucky to have clean transfers of them. Incidentally I gave up on EAC because it struck me as completely useless that it could not rescue these very important [artistically and to me personally] CDs while iTunes managed the job. Repalcing them would have cost several hundred pounds such is their rarity. It is not quite as everyone says in respect of iTunes being not as good. In this case it was infinitiely better. But if you are copying discs in good condition it is not clear to me what the compaint about the ultimate quality of iTunes might be. To say this much, it cannot be very much having heard the HDX, which for thousands of pounds [and in a very much better system than mine] possibly gave a marginally better sonic result. For those thousands of pounds I would jolly well hope it was better!

On the quality of replay that can result. Again I have not done extensive tests, but have sampled at length iTunes on a PC with Windows XP on, and at less length iTunes on a Macbook Pro. The Macbook was feeding a Lavry D 10 [please let's not get into another Lavry Wars thing as the result of a simple reproting of an audition], whichj produced very pleasing results, but altogether for me was too expensive to manage to buy.

My PC is simply using a good if quite old sound-card. ASUS make some good modern ones, but clearly my set is more functional than Hifi - at least as considered from the printed word.

However - and speaking as one who first used a Naim CD played in 1999, and owned both a CD3 and a CDS2, as well as having used a CDS3 and a CDi in my own system at home for short periods - I have a fair bench mark of what adequate digital replay is, and of what is possible from CDs.

So I can report that my PC is retrieving musically involving details which seemed to elude the CD replay I knew before from even among the best CD playing machines. I am not saying that the replay is better from the PC, but for me it is certainly more enjoyable. If I could afford a better computer, and HDX is a computer in all but its designation, then no doubt it would be finer again, but very much more expensive.

If your budget is tight and you want a replay of the CDs that is not inferior in enjoyability to very fine CD player based replay then go for iTunes.

If you want more then there is the chance to gather a huge amount of information here about more sophisticated, complicated to set aup and opperate, and certainly more expensive options - from Macbooks with external DACs, to PCs with ASIO drivers [don't ask - it is all Chinese to me], to the HDX [the up and coming Naim DAC], and Linn systems costing thousands, and also in connection with the HDX, the chance to expand the system using a NAS - then you can find your answers here for sure.

Again, I am the last person to ask about the significance of these things. I want something simple to use that works very well. More Skoda than Bentley perhaps, but Skoda cars are no joke these days. In fact if I were buying a new car ...

The only thing that I did not do for myself was install the half terrabite mirrored [self backing up in RAID] pair of Hard Disc Drives in my PC.

Otherwise there was nothing in iTunes that was beyond me to make work very nicely and fine enough in replay terms to be satisfying without the need for me to worry about any need to upgrade.

I hope that helps. A few gallons of cold water common sense maybe, and no soft soap, but a straight response based on my experience over the last months, to a straight question, as I hope it is perceived.

ATB foom George

Many thanks George!
regards Ralf

Posted on: 17 September 2009 by js

I don't know why results vary so much. I still prefer a top Naim CD player for CD replay and have done extensive comparisons with varying DAC combos over the years. Still prefer WAV to lossless even though I know the dig info comes out the same. Same with rips. It's not like we don't use computers for making original recordings either. They're in the loop and a great tool if used correctly but we're talking CDs here. To each his own I guess and my opinion shouldn't change those who have come to other conclusions but there it is. Perhaps the new DAC will change this opinion by taking theory into reality but the best ones so far haven't quite got me to the top CD replay yet regardless of what I do in front of them and I've heard a lot. Some combos do have a interesting sound but not like reality to me. Original recordings for comparison help here. Nagra VI is best as a DAC so far and very good but I'd still rather have a top Naim player for CD replay. The 1704 DAC the top 2 players use is virtually immune to jitter in that environment, the transports don't drop bits and the transition stream couldn't be better. There's no theoretical disadvantage to these players and by being self contained, they can be voiced and massaged to be all they can be, all the time. Doesn't mean that you have to prefer them as I do or that they may not eventually be improved upon but much of the theoretical discussions here of CD vs PC don't apply to their topology. Of course 24/96 is another story but again, I'm talking CD here and only of the performance aspect. Opinion here so don't get wound up. Convenience, storage, etc weren't taken into account.

p.s.
I haven't cared for ASIO4all the times I've tried it vs a dedicated ASIO driver so don't assume it the same. It's constantly revised so perhaps it's better now. I'm not trying it again as there's plenty of ways to do it right.

Posted on: 17 September 2009 by Aleg

quote:
Originally posted by js:
...
Perhaps the new DAC will change this opinion ...

Read here a small review of another "non-believer"

quote:

... I haven't cared for ASIO4all the times I've tried it ...

I must admit that I haven't tried any other ASIO-drivers, but I find the ASIO4ALL is at least hassle free and already a definite improvement to the default Windows audio.

-
Aleg

Posted on: 17 September 2009 by js

I've heard great digital from non CD sources so I wouldn't say I'm a non-believer but I get your drift

and as I said, ASIO4all has been through numerous revisions since I tried it last so my last comment was intended with a grain of salt. It would be great if we could all come together on this. It seems we get closer all the time. Maybe the DAC will get us there. I'm hoping so as a DAC would be great for my current situation at home.

Posted on: 17 September 2009 by pcstockton

quote:
Originally posted by GFFJ:
Incidentally I gave up on EAC because it struck me as completely useless that it could not rescue these very important [artistically and to me personally] CDs while iTunes managed the job.

George, nice post.

EAC, while the best ripper available for a PC, cannot work miracles. If the errors are non-correctable there is nothing EAC can do, if EAC is set-up in "secure mode".

You could have however changed it to burn in "Burst mode", as your iTunes does, and easily completed the rip. Or used Foobar in burst mode, which I have done a few times on severely damaged discs.

As mentioned previously, burst mode will glance right over those unreadable areas. Whether you can hear it or not is another question. My Nina Simone Complete Philips Recordings set was much loved by an ex who trashed the CDs in her car. Only a burst mode rip could successfully do the job. And there are audible pops, clicks and glitches on a few tracks.

Setting up EAC in different ways, then saving the settings as "templates" is as easy as setting up iTunes for the first time.

But whatever..... I just wanted to explain to you why the iTunes rips are faster and handle really bad discs. It is not anything any other ripper cannot do if you dumb down the settings enough. The flipside though is, you cannot use iTunes to make a proper secure mode rip.

The good news though is, nothing handles CDs with pre-emphasis better than iTunes. Rip in iTunes to WAV, then convert to FLAC. iTunes removes the pre-emphasis on the fly. I dont even know if Apple knows it can do this!

2 cents.
patrick

Posted on: 17 September 2009 by u5227470736789439

Dear Patrick,

I do not doubt your word.

The thing is that without aid from anyone else, I could get a result that pleased me from iTunes.

The problem with some software is that it requires a good long handbook to optimise, and my interest in in music, and not especially with complex replay systems. The HDX would suit me in every way except the price of it [and possibly the UI], so I have to hunt for something as usable at a price I can afford!

But I stand by my comments about the set I have being so musically involving.

No doubt greater expertise in computers would open the window wider again. but what I have is more than simply adequate ...

ATB from George

Posted on: 17 September 2009 by pcstockton

G,

Of course you have!!! iTunes rips are ok. NO problem.

BUT!!!!!! Let say someone robs you of all your CDs

With a proper EAC rip you could reburn an EXACT replica.

I know it an extreme circumstance, but it is a case where the rip is the actual back-up for the CD rather than the other way around.

If a hard drive dies and you are not backed up, you can always re-rip the CD. But if you lose the CD you are stuck with a burst mode rip without cue file. You wont be able to recreate the lost CD as it was. You might have lost bits given the lack of offset correction, you surely lost ALL pregap tracks, and the gaps between songs will not be accurate.

I know it is unlikely, but I have lost many CDs over the years. In the last 3 since I been ripping with EAC, I have easily recreated the CD when this happens.

Now that all CDs are stored away, except for new purchases, I tend not to lose them. But crack heads can easily get $5 for a CD in good condition over here. They are stolen from cars all the time.

If some loser stole my boxes of CDs I could easily recreate any and all I wanted with EAC and my cue file. Now that is back-up.

I have a nice Nakamichi stereo with 6-changer in my car, so I like to fill it up with CDs. Typically I simply burn them as described above, then happily lose them or scratch the hell out of them.

For some reason hooking up the iPhone to play MP3s not only sounds like shite but is a pain the arse everytime you get in the car. Plus the music stops whenever someone calls etc....

Anyway, we both have our methods, in the end I bet they both sound identical, except for pre gap tracks of course. iTunes simply cant read them.

-Patrick

Posted on: 17 September 2009 by u5227470736789439

Dear Patrick,

I am getting old. The best security is to look none too well off!

I doubt anyone would bother to break into my dwelling!

And the truth is the actual physical things mean nothing to me anymore - well apart from a handful of very personal things and a silver watch I am buying!

If it were not for a niggle of a feeling of stealing copyright were I to part with the CDs, then they could go tomorrow.

Of course there are valuable issues, some must be rare enough to be numbered in the hundreds or even tens of pressings anywhere in the world in the form they exist, but the issue for me is the music in the disc spiral rather than the spiral itself.

I know that what I have achieved is a copy rather than a clone, but for all that it is easy enough for me to use, and anjoy.

If I could get clearance to part with the CDs and stay legal they would go tomorrow and I would triplicate the backing up arrnagements.

When you get old like me, you will also loose interest in the physical belongings in your life! But till then you may find it a peculiar attitude in others!

Stay young as long as you can, dear Patrick!

ATb from George

Posted on: 17 September 2009 by pcstockton

I love you George. You're the best!

I now know the answer to "what i want to be when i grow up"

Georgie!

Posted on: 17 September 2009 by js

Young again?

Posted on: 18 September 2009 by js

I'm the wrong side of 50 myself. No offense was intended. I just speak from experience.

Those par 5s are requiring more lay ups every year.