A different viewpoint ?

No. Racism is racism. It works on many levels, in all directions and within and without 'ethnic minorities' whatever they are. Are they saying it's all right for us to be pigs because everyone's at it? Bit thin IMO. Possibly chilling echoes of the pseudo 'intellectual' discussions which people who wore armbands used to enjoy chewing over in the 30s? I'm sure that the report had more to say than that - but as is the fashion nowadays, might as well go for the most dramatic out of context quote. Should keep the Mail readers happy though

Cheers

Harry

OK Harry

A high powered Muslim cleric reports a licenced burger van parked in the vicinity of a mosque but servicing a local industrial estate as insultary as it is offensive to the Muslim ideals. The van is told to "move on".

I think racism should not be tolerated. I accept that we should not gear our society around the wishes of the few, but that is seperate from protecting minorities from discrimination over race or creed. Attempting to incorporate all races and beliefs in our society should be a goal, it needs flexibility on all 'sides'.

Sure we can over-react to complaints of racism but the overwhelming majority of racist behaviour and discrimination I would say is undocumented and effectively 'accepted' by perpetrator and victim alike. I'm pretty sure the balance has not swung too far the other way.

I suspect the 'burger van' report is rather a simplification of the event.

I hope this thread remains thoughful and constructive. I fear otherwise...

Bruce

Racism is based on discrimination against race, colour, descent or ethnic origin and should be secular. The assumption that someone of a different faith is of a different race is somewhat misplaced. Is the issue here racial or religious intolerance? They are not the same thing.

quote:

Originally posted by long-time-dead:
OK Harry

A high powered Muslim cleric reports a licenced burger van parked in the vicinity of a mosque but servicing a local industrial estate as insultary as it is offensive to the Muslim ideals. The van is told to "move on".

I don't immediately see what that's got to do with racism. Are you saying that people who hold strong religious views (rightly or wrongly) are racists? That's a bit of a leap. Does it then follow that people who's views offend should be discriminated against? This does not compute!

Cheers

Harry

quote:

Originally posted by Huwge:
Is the issue here racial or religious intolerance? They are not the same thing.

That is an interesting question. I was speaking with a colleague at work and he was saying that at university he went out with a Pakistani girl. To say her parents were unimpressed was an understatement. Now, is this because he is white or because he isn’t a Muslim? Or is it both? I guess if he had embraced Islam and they were still unhappy then we would know it was a colour issue.

One thing is for sure – had HIS parents objected to their son having a relationship with a Pakistani girl they would have been deemed racists full stop.

I do think there are a number of UK officials who are so desperate to not offend it is farcical. All this banning of the Union Flag etc – the truth of it, IMO, is that this symbol is far more offensive to the white Guardian and Independent readers than it is to anyone else.

On the other hand, the current court case going on – white scallies driving an ice pick into a young black guy’s head simply because of his colour – is a startling reminder that racism is alive and kicking in the UK.

Matt.

Harry
Try living in a muslim country.

You will then be subjected to constant racist mantra based on relegeous theology. There you will find exactly what a bigot is.

What is the point of asking this sort of question? Are you looking to provoke people for enjoyment?
In my experience, people in this country are generally not racist. They are open minded and quite generous. However, the instituational falling over backward to accommodate more and more demands from the ethnic minorities (who invented that term, demeaning or what) does start to pale somewhat.
Perhaps we should all get along together, but for starters perhaps this country should stop giving refuge to individuals who hold fundamentalist issues. Lets face it, some of these individuals have quite openly stated that they wish for an armed overthrow of this and other western secular countries. Should this be allowed, or is it taken as a joke? Doesn't this pervert the reasons for free speech?

Good points indeed Marvin. Although I don't need to travel that far to see exactly what a bigot is. As I said in my first reply, IMO racism is racism - it doesn't conform to one colour/religious/cultral stereotype and there's no excuse for it. Two wrongs don't make a right and all that.

If we started excluding/deporting/prosecuting people who are thought to be extreme, where would it end? I know of a lot of bloody dangerous Christians. One of them is currently in charge of one of the world's largest superpowers.

Having risen to LTD's bait I think I'll sit back and watch from now on. Lest I start going round in circles.

Cheers

Harry

I don't know much about racism (it's not something I've encountered regularily) but in terms of sectarianism there is definitely an element of people looking to be offended so that they can complain about it.

Now the debate is unfolding - good.

We understand the clear difference between racism and religious sectarianism. It is such a pity that society in general doesn't.

The example of the burger van was not oversimplified - it happened that way.

I have a mixed religion marriage. I am Protestant and my wife is Jewish. Glasgow is a great city that embraces all and applauds diversity. Unfortunately, it is the people who are afforded this equality that are being very intolerant of the people around them.

This, I fear, will only cause greater segregation and divide in time unless everyone can live together, albeit with the idiots that cannot see this.

There is no bait - just an observation of recent situations that makes me feel that equality is not good enough for some of the ethnic minorities in our society.

It's hard to know what constitutes an ethnic minority these days - I mean a minority in Scotland, the British Isles, Northern Europe, Continental Europe ... ?

I'm an ethnic minority, I guess, in the context of the British Isles and Europe. I endured racist slurs at school in England, perhaps more than the boys from outside the UK. Somehow, taking the piss out of someone for being Welsh didn't count as racism (to the people making the jibes at me), it was just a bit of harmless fun to them. I accepted it, more or less. Like censorship, I feel this example shows how difficut it is to draw a line between acceptable and unnaceptable behaviour, i.e. when does joshing cease to be joshing and become abuse? By not reacting was I condoning the behaviour.

I think part of the problem faced pursuing a constructive debate is an absence of untainted vocabulary, i.e. words that have strict definitions without connotations. Regrettably, a key word that seems to have fallen out of most dictionaries is tolerance, followed swiftly by common sense.

Also, there has to be some differentiation between a secular dialogue about racism and religious intolerances that are often entwined with racial issues as well. Both are important issues but not always bound together.

My view is that positive discrimination does not work. The issue can only be addressed and resolved at a man / woman in the street level and not by politically motivated mandates, however well-meaning.

Slightly edited as I think the original post may not have made it clear that it was me being joshed and not doing the joshing. Although, perhaps I did mutter something along the lines of "twll din pob Sais!"

More than once I have heard or read bizarre arguments to the effect that if some of the victims of one form of bigotry practise another form of bigotry then this somehow invalidates all opposition to the former form of bigotry.

Clearly, people's right to protection from bigotry is by virtue of their being victims of injustice - not by virtue of their being virtuous people. Obviously, when a bigot is on the receiving end of bigotry, those of us who are so inclined can view it as poetic justice of sorts...

On the other hand, some bigots try to excuse their own bigotry by projecting it onto others, e.g. excusing their own racism by arguing that everyone has some racism in them. It's sad when bigotry is so intrinsic to a person's world view that they apparently cannot understand that others do not see the world in the same distorted way.

It doesnt matter where one goes in the world, someone will probably take 'offence' at something spoken or an activity undertaken, so much so that in what I take to be my own country, freedom of speech exists only in the mind of the politicians that are doing their best to remove it.
The UK is a very placid place, there are very few disturbances and to be brutally honest, racist slurs are the exeption not the rule. Most of us try to get on with our lives whilst avoiding others as much as possible.
i don't know if many contributors have travelled much around the world, those that have will probably emphasise with the statement that all countries have their problems, some are far worse tha others, and from my viewpoint, this country is way down the list where bigotry is concerned. The examples used earlier were not placed as an excuse for similar behavoir, they are stated as examples of countries where the 'welcome' you receive is a little different from what you might expect. Or to put it another way, is the bigotry present in the common, or in the visitor?
Rational thought on this subject is always a problem as it is very emotive, or at least the participants make it emotional. I should imagine that most people have never spent much of their life working and living in another country, or if they do they do not spend much of that time with the host citizens, preferring ghettos of their own like.
My thoughts on the subject are simple, live at let live, though don't expect me to fall in line with what you want me to do.

I'll leave you with a parting thought; If this country was populated by mindless bigots, why do so many people from other countries wish to come here?

An encouraging sign: someone told me today that he went into a Muslim-owned shop that had Christmas and Divali greetings in the window.

When a mullah came in and protested about the greetings the shop owner told him where to go.