Naim CD/Amps with Wilson Benesch Discovery speakers

Following that I heard the Verity Audio Fidelio. Although they didn't have quite the same of snap as the Discoverys, the musical coherence and details were almost an epiphany. I've never heard a soundstage sound so natural (i.e. not exaggerated round earth soundstage, but rather a cohesive, real image, where the speakers truly disappear). I'm going to have to listen to their big brothers, the Parsifal Encore.

After that were some non-active ATCs. (I'm not sure of the model.) These sounded much more like the Discoveries, although not as tight. Again, the music was box-bound, which is something that I just can't get on with.

BTW, the electronics were a Mark Levinson No 31.5 digital transport, a DAC that I didn't spot, and a Jeff Rowland integrated amp.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

I suspect that you may audition more speakers than I have even heard of. Let me know at once if you hear a near-field monitor type speaker which is not boxy, images superbly, has a soundstage, has PR&T of course, has some bass of a tuneful not lumpy nature, can go loud when driven by a single 250 and costs 2000UKP or less.

I'm sure you can do it.

Alex

As you know, my main listening room is small: the speakers are about 6 feet apart, and I sit approximately 8 feet from each speaker. In my office the distances are much smaller again, with an equilaterus triangle of about 4'. In the strictest sense, I would consider my office to be NFM, and not the main room.

Does either of these represent your situation?

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

I have a CDS2/52/250 with Wilson Benesch ACT2 and have never been happier with my system. I used to won albions but find that the ACT 2 are better by untold proportions in virtually every category you can think of. I can certainly understand your enthusiasm. The naim combination is particularly stunning, as you get the cohesion and timing and natural soundstage of naim combined with an effortless sense of free breathing dynamics and purity of tone. The best upgrade I have ever made by a very large margin. But these are considerably more expensive than the Discovery.

Daveí

I have quite a large listening room but I have a 6'6" equilateral triangle listening arrangement. N805s work much better this way and image superbly. There is no 'hole in the middle'. Beleieve me, I've tried alternatives and it was Lance (thanks Lance) who set me up this way.

This means the speakers are about 7' away from the rear wall and 7' or more from the side walls. So not much bass boom induced by the walls.

As you know I've got RPG foam about the place. I also have granite stands which further enhance the speaker's capabilities. These I have tried filling to various degrees but they work best empty.

Image and soundstage may mean nothing to many here, fine, but if you use free space speakers well away from the walls then Naim can image like the best of them.

Alex

One more thing. The bass on WB speakers is not boxy and is, in fact, anti boxy. I am surprised Mike didn't question the room set up or the electronics, seeing as he is such an ardent Source-firster and new age audio expert. If you read any review of wilson benesch speakers anywhere the first thing they will say is that the bass is not boxy because of the use of such an inert carbon fiber cabinet. If they have not been burned in (about 500 h) they may not sound up to snuff. Not that reviewers are always right (they often are not), but they generally can give you an idea of a products strengths when summed up over all reviews read and tabulated and give an idea of a products character. The bass in Wilson benesch speakers is tight clear fast and lean and deep enough, but not the deepest. My enthusiasm is seconded by a friend who has ACT 2 with CDS/52/135s, having traded in his ProAcs and almost giving up on Naim until he switched to WB.

But you are the one that has to make the descision if they are right for you as there are many fine speakers out there to choose from.

Daveo

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the bass is not boxy

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That's not what I said. What I was implying was that the Discovery didn't disappear. They sounded like a set of speakers playing music (albeit very good speakers, with inummerable admirable qualities), rather than just music from an invisible source.

I am somewhat sensitive to this, but I probably would not have noticed it so much if they had not been followed by the Verity Audio Fidelios. My jaw literally dropped, and stayed that way for at least 15 minutes. I've never heard as palpable soundstage as this. It was also smooth, detailed, lyrical, magical, with great bass extension, fantastic flow, and a whole bunch of other stuff.

As I mentioned in my other message, though, they didn't have quite the sense of dynamics that I prefer. (When the snare drum hits, I want to hear it really CRACK.) That's why I want to hear the Parsifal Encore. It's in the Act2's price range, so I'm not rushing into it.

Back to the Discovery, I was very impressed... just not as much so as with the Fidelios. BTW, I would take Discoveries any day over SBLs. I would have to hear them against the Albions, though, to be sure that they did everything that the Albions did well. As you may have noticed (if this is something that's important to you), the Albions do a pretty good disappearing act, presenting the music as a strong cohesive presence. That's something that I MUST have.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

I think I'd better investigate Royd.

The albions do have a very natural midrange and a sense of fleshiness to them that most speaker with that kind of detail and speed lack. I find the extremes a bit dry and sometimes iritating, though. I am sure 135s make them that much better. As for the discoveries, they don't have nearly as good trebble (The super revelator on the act 2 is seemingly flawless and I think the Discoveries just have a modified revelator, like an ACt 1) This is interesting as the ACT 1s when I demod them last year didn't quite dissapear either. In the upper mids and highs they did, but in the bass they didn't. The ACT 2 is a different beast altogether as bass seems to radiate from almost anywhere, depending on where that instrument is. The dynamics are AMAZING and the trebbles and mids are mind boggling. The new Tool album sounds awesome without any sense of strain and the bass is alive and breathing and doesn't have that annoying quality that it sounds like its coming directly from the woofer. If the Parsifal Encore does this, then all the power to them! I like speakers that give you speed, cohesion, detail, and dynamics with a natural soundstage and tonal purity. Round and Flat Earths all in one. In this sense the Albions are a much lesser version of the ACT 2. With ACT 2s I am never aware that I am listening to a bunch of instruments but always the song, while they give me the luxury of focusing in on any of the instruments and following them with analytical prescision if I want to. They are thus extremely flat earth while also not suffering from the forward and dry quality and lack of richness and tonal beauty many such speakers normally exhibit, in fact, just the opposite.

BTW, I heard a full blown Mark Levinson set up with Mezzo Utopias and thought the system sounded nice with jazz, but very flat and compressed with rock. I was very dissapointed.

Dave

Alex

Regarding the question of Royds, I've heard the new RR1 three times and RR2 once. I've also heard numerous comments from my dealer. The first thing I noticed was the seamless, liquid midrange. Also, these speakers disappear as well as any that I've ever heard. They weren't fully broken in when I listened to them, though, so I wasn't impressed with their dynamics. I've been told that this has improved greatly since I've heard them. Finally, the RR2 goes exceedingly deep for such a little box, and it's always utterly under control. They're really quite amazing.

Alex, you might want to give these a try. I hestitate somewhat when suggesting them, as I've heard from Royd that they work best when they are far apart, and 6'6" doesn't really apply. I'll try to get them into my room sometime in the next little while, and see how they compare to the Albions.

One thing that concerns me is that they don't seem nearly as efficient as earlier Royds. I really had to crank the volume on the shop's 102/NAPSC/Hi/250 to get any appreciable volume from them. Royd says that they're fine with the NAP150 and above, but don't work well with the Nait5. Curiously, they've also stated that Creek amps tend to work very well. When I heard the RR2, it was on the end of a little Creek integrated, and it sounded very good indeed (although I think I would still take the 102/NAPSSC/Hi/250 ).

I really need to give these more of a listen. They're quite different from most other speakers that I've heard, and I'm not entirely sure what to make of them yet. I'm so familiar with most of rest of Royd's line-up, that these have me somewhat baffled.

If you get a chance, try to give them a listen for yourself. You might be pleasantly surprised.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

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Let me know at once if you hear a near-field monitor type speaker which is not boxy, images superbly, has a soundstage, has PR&T of course, has some bass of a tuneful not lumpy nature, can go loud when driven by a single 250 and costs 2000UKP or less.

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The only bit I have reservations about is volume, I get the impression they won't handle loads of power.

They do all the other bits though, they can really disappear, just like they have from the market!

Andy.

The new RR2 initially appears quite similar to the Doublet in its design.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

I use the above combination, bought from Audio T in Tunbridge Wells.

My system is CDSII/52/250/Wilson Benesch Actors. This was a move from SBLs. I like SBLs, but in the end they just don't have the scale (you know I'm a Bruckner fan) that the Actors have. Whether scale and bass equate to the same I don't know, but Actors go a lot lower than SBLs. To my ears they also have a more fluid quality in the upper end as well.

I tried a demo of the Discoveries about 6 months ago. I was disappointed with the demo. They have the transparency of ACT1s (the Actors sound rough in comparison, although no worse than SBLs), but the bass quality just wasn't right, and sounded a bit like every bass note had the same sound and texture to it. I came away from the demo thinking that apart from on filling a price gap between the Actors (£4K), and the more expensive ACT 1 and 2s (£7K and £9K) I wasn't sure why WB bothered - the actual space they take up is about the same as Actors or ACT1s.

One thing to consider - I don't really think that either ACT1 or ACT2s are really driven properly by a 250 (Actors are OK) - I think ACT1s need at least 135s. I've tried 135s in my system and the improvements are good, but I'm hoping to try something with a bit more power (Dynavector HX1.2) in the near future to see what that does for my speakers.

David

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The Doublets were good speakers, and my only noteworthy complaint was that they had a slightly ragged midrange.

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My brother has a very late pair, that actually have the newer drivers used in the revelation series.

The midrange sounds very good to me.

I don't know if the drivers are part of this, or whether it's a system thing, but if so the drivers are probably retrofittable to older models, since there is no crossover to the bass units and just a simple first order on the tweeter.

Makes for a very punchy 'active' type sound.

Andy.

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Makes for a very punchy 'active' type sound.

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I'll agree that the Doublets do that very well.

WRT the "ragged midrange", I noticed this one day as we ran the gamut of Royd speakers. We auditioned about two-thirds of their entire range, and noticed the problem with the midrange in comparison to the other speakers in the same price range (like the Minstrel SE and Abbot).

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

Johnv

I bought a Wilson Benesch Triptych for my system which was at the time a naked CDX/52/250 with Royd Albions. I was using the notably inferior Lovan stands at the time. The difference was enormous. Not only a change and clarification of the sound, but a whole layer of detail appeared that was no there before. A friend who is a non-audiophile was not all that impressed with my system (he was staying for a week from Edmonton) until I got the Triptych delivered. I will spare you the usual hyperbole, but it suffices to say that the upgrade at that time would have been about the same in scale as going from a CDX/102/180 to a CDX/102/Hicap/180. The sound is fast and dynamic yet also fluid and not overly forward. I was so impressed I had a custom built six shelf asside made for me. And that's where I am now. The asside brought on further improvements in the same way. Mind you, the asside is slightly warmer and more cozy sounding than the Triptych for the CDS 2. A different friend and I agreed that the CDS 2 was better on the Triptych. More dynamic and more open, although not quite as warm (not to say that the Triptych is cold, as it is actually fairly neutral in this regard). I used the rubber feet for the MDF shelves under the power supplies and metal ball bearings under the MDF for the 52. Wilson Benesch allows you to use glass or MDF as well as rubber feet or ball bearings/spikes as they belive no two commonents have exactly the same support needs. This gives you a certain amount of latitude for experimentation. I think the ball bearings are best for preamps and sources while the rubber feet are better for anything with a transformer. No direct comparissons were made with other stands besides the Lovans. Since the improvements in both the Triptych and Asside cases justified the high price tag, I just smiled and was satisfied that I got what I considered my money's worth and left it at that.

As for the 250 and the ACT 2, it is a wonderful combo, but I am sure it is not optimal as 135s and the mighty 500 would be even better. Only on a few rap tracks at moderate to higher volume do I think the 250 shows its a) lack of truly deep bass, and b) exaggerated mid-bass.

Dave´

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Wilson Benesch allows you to use glass or MDF as well as rubber feet or ball bearings/spikes as they belive no two commonents have exactly the same support needs.

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David H-M - I intend to give Audio T in TW a whirl.