DACs I have bought and sold...

Posted by: Mr Pierce on 09 May 2008

No questions just yet & not asking advice, just my $.02 to help future forum-searchers on the DAC-quest...

So, not long after taking possession of my new hifi set which consists of a Rega Apollo CDP, 72, 140, and Dahlquist DQ-20 speakers - and after bumblingly dealing with speaker placement issues - I decided I wanted to Never Alphabetize My CD Collection Ever Again. So, I bought a Mac Mini and a Stello DA100 (not the new "signature" model) DAC. Even after many emails to the US Stello rep and a two-week warmup/break-in period, it just didn't sound as good as my CDP. Brittle treble, and no bump & bounce in the dynamics. Totally lacked the thing that made me spend US $3K on a stereo in the first place when I'd planned to spend a third of that sum.

So I bought a used Benchmark DAC1 USB, kept the Stello long enough to do an A/B test, and sold the Stello to a headphone listener with an anime avatar on the forums whom I'm sure is now delighted with it. The Benchmark sounds noticeably better, but still doesn't make me stop what I'm doing and sit on the couch because the music compels me to. Again with the no dynamic liveliness. And again, my standard is the Apollo - I'm not trying to beat a CD555 at it's own game or nothin' - just want a DAC to sound as good as a CDP that costs less that itself. Repeat buy/compare/sell, this time with a PS Audio Digital Link III. This one is the best of the bunch so far, but still is left in the dust by the Rega - which was easily bested by the CD5i at the dealer's, but I only had so much to spend...

So I sell the PS Audio and am now DACless. In Seattle. Next stop I assume is to have Mr. & Mrs. Lavry send a DA10 across the Puget Sound so I can take advantage of their 30-day trial period. I am cautiously optimistic.

If the DA10 fails to deliver the goods the way I like 'em, my options narrow to rob a bank and get an HDX, wait for Rega to make a DAC since Naim says they won't make one, rob a smaller bank and get a SuperNait and use its DAC, get to alphabetizing, or consider more left-field stuff like a battery-powered Altmann, the Lessloss from Lithuania, or the Stealth Kukama...

YMMV, FWIW, OMG, etc - just wanted to post my findings so far.

Posted on: 09 May 2008 by Guido Fawkes

quote:
wait for Rega to make a DAC since Naim says they won't make one

Did they say that?

I have heard a Mac / SuperNait and I still think your Apollo through a Nait 5i will beat it hands down.

I've not done the research that you have done and given a really excellent account of, if I may say, but your findings tally with what I have heard.

If you do find a DAC that lifts an Apple music server ahead of the Apollo then please post and let us know - there are lots of forum members who'd be really interested.

Good luck with your search

ATB Rotf

Posted on: 09 May 2008 by Chris Kelly

A Stealth Cucumber. The mind boggles.

As I am one of those described in another thread as a dinosaur and a Luddite I am so pleased not to have all these agonies to endure. Just lob the little silver disc in the top of the player, attach puck and press play. Easy peasy!

Posted on: 09 May 2008 by Guido Fawkes

Chris - I agree.

It is new music that is the only concern. A couple of artists are talking of downloads only - bit of pain to download and then burn to CD and .... don't think I'll bother if they can't bring out a CD then perhaps I'll just stay with those that do.

Still when the new record deck is installed then perhaps I'll take a year off buying new music to listen to my old stuff. Sounded great in the demo yesterday.

In year or so time there may be an innovative new source that satisfies everybody

ATB Rotf

Posted on: 09 May 2008 by pcstockton

quote:
Originally posted by Chris Kelly:
A Stealth Cucumber. The mind boggles.

As I am one of those described in another thread as a dinosaur and a Luddite I am so pleased not to have all these agonies to endure. Just lob the little silver disc in the top of the player, attach puck and press play. Easy peasy!

Chris with all due respect to yourself, and your 2600 posts, suggesting the above, does not help the dialectic.

Posted on: 09 May 2008 by James Lehmann

quote:
Originally posted by Mister Pierce:
If the DA10 fails to deliver the goods the way I like 'em, my options narrow to rob a bank and get an HDX, wait for Rega to make a DAC since Naim says they won't make one, rob a smaller bank and get a SuperNait and use its DAC, get to alphabetizing, or consider more left-field stuff like a battery-powered Altmann, the Lessloss from Lithuania, or the Stealth Kukama...

If Rega manage to make a DAC that is technically better than the Lavry there will be a long queue of pro-audio folk lining up to buy one! Dan Lavry has a very good reputation in this field. They'd be better off licensing and rebadging probably.

Firewire DAC's are reputed to be far more robust than anything with USB in it. Go Firewire wherever possible.

The market is clearly ripe for Naim to produce a stand-alone Firewire DAC with the classic 5-pin DIN analog output, enabling you to connect a Mac to your Naim amplifier of choice.

Awesome though I'm sure the SuperNait is, its D-A conversion only ever going to be as good as the externally clocked digital signal coming down the coax wire into it. In the case of picking that up from a bog-standard MacBook this won't be stellar. A stand-alone DAC, utilising its own internal, high-quality clock and fed directly from the Mac via Firewire is likely to have far lower jitter and yield much better results.

Posted on: 09 May 2008 by 555

quote:
Originally posted by Chris Kelly:
A Stealth Cucumber. The mind boggles.

As I am one of those described in another thread as a dinosaur and a Luddite I am so pleased not to have all these agonies to endure. Just lob the little silver disc in the top of the player, attach puck and press play. Easy peasy!

Very astute observation Chris.

Posted on: 09 May 2008 by Chris Kelly

quote:
Chris with all due respect to yourself, and your 2600 posts, suggesting the above, does not help the dialectic

The what?

Posted on: 09 May 2008 by Chris Kelly

quote:
Chris with all due respect to yourself, and your 2600 posts, suggesting the above, does not help the dialectic.

2625 to you, junior.

Posted on: 09 May 2008 by Steve S1

quote:
So I sell the PS Audio and am now DACless. In Seattle. Next stop I assume is to have Mr. & Mrs. Lavry send a DA10 across the Puget Sound so I can take advantage of their 30-day trial period. I am cautiously optimistic.

Mr P,

Are you just comparing Mac Mini/DACs with the CD player?

Or are you also comparing transport/DAC with the CD player too?

I don't know the Apollo, but reading up on it - it seems to have a coax digital output. It also seems to have "MP3 functionality" - but I'm unclear what that means given that you presumably wouldn't need a DAC if you could stream your Mac Mini to use the Rega's Wolfson DAC?

I also have a Lavry DA10 on it's way, to compare with a DAC1. Although, I must say my expection with £600 DACs is more along the lines of providing decent quality streaming than becoming a main source, at this stage.

It's handy to stream stuff in good sound that you otherwise would not be able to buy, or try samples with better than PC speakers.

Steve

Posted on: 09 May 2008 by Guido Fawkes

quote:
It also seems to have "MP3 functionality"

Steve - you have to burn the mp3s to a CD for the Apollo to play them - never tried it, but I'm sure it would work. As far as I'm aware on my father's Apollo there is no way to use its WM8740 Sigma Delta 24-bit DAC directly with a Mac Mini.

ATB Rotf

Posted on: 09 May 2008 by pcstockton

quote:
Originally posted by Chris Kelly:
quote:
Chris with all due respect to yourself, and your 2600 posts, suggesting the above, does not help the dialectic

The what?

the exchange of arguments and counter-arguments respectively advocating propositions (theses) and counter-propositions (antitheses). The outcome of the exercise might not simply be the refutation of one of the relevant points of view, but a synthesis or combination of the opposing assertions, or at least a qualitative transformation in the direction of the dialogue.... dialectic.

Posted on: 09 May 2008 by Steve S1

quote:
Originally posted by ROTF:
quote:
It also seems to have "MP3 functionality"

Steve - you have to burn the mp3s to a CD for the Apollo to play them - never tried it, but I'm sure it would work. As far as I'm aware on my father's Apollo there is no way to use its WM8740 Sigma Delta 24-bit DAC directly with a Mac Mini.

ATB Rotf

Ah, I see. I couldn't see how that would work. I had visions of one of those "in-car" mini-jacks.

Cheers,

Steve

Posted on: 09 May 2008 by pcstockton

keep in mind that converting an MP3 to a WAV files creates a transcode, and results in very low quality music.

Transcodes should be avoided at all costs.

Posted on: 09 May 2008 by Mr Pierce

My goodness! Quite a few responses in a very short time - eleven flies in one blow... wow.

To clarify, I ripped darn near a terabyte of bits & bytes to iTunes using Apple Lossless with error correction on using a Windows machine. I have the external hard drive formatted so it will play nice with both Dell and Mac. DACs were tested using an eMac - the Mac Mini with maxed-out RAM and last week's OS is still in its box, awaiting the arrival of the Keeper DAC - via its USB 1.0 output and also from the coax digital out on the backside of the Apollo.

Believe me, if the Apollo had a digital IN, I wouldn't have bought DAC 1, 2, or 3. There's a mod - I mean, um, hello Moderator! - for a prior Rega CDP that adds a digital input, but so far nothing for the Apollo.

I suppose I should have listened to the Mac Mini instead of the eMac, but, in my defense, to my ear each DAC sounded the same when playing the same tune via Mac/USB/DAC and CDP/coax/DAC.

I just want a homemade server that puts my nostrils up to the bottom end - well, lets say the lower reaches - of the high-end; I just want my cobbled-together server to sound as good as the Apollo, not a Saturn, and not any CDP currently made by Naim. This shouldn't be difficult!

Posted on: 09 May 2008 by James Lehmann

quote:
Originally posted by Mister Pierce:
I just want a homemade server that puts my nostrils up to the bottom end - well, lets say the lower reaches - of the high-end; I just want my cobbled-together server to sound as good as the Apollo, not a Saturn, and not any CDP currently made by Naim. This shouldn't be difficult!

You may never get there with 16-bit source material.

Where the DAC route should be burying CD once and for all is in its capacity to replay much higher resolution recordings. The problem we've all got is that the greedy and paranoid music industry isn't releasing such material at higher bit-depths and sample rates, even though it could perfectly well be made available either on DVD-A or via downloads.

Posted on: 09 May 2008 by Adam Meredith

quote:
Originally posted by pcstockton:
Transcodes should be avoided at all costs.

"The swimming pool is full of hail."

Posted on: 09 May 2008 by pcstockton

Adam,

What does that mean?

Why all the inside jokes?

It make some of us feel like we are getting made fun of.

Posted on: 09 May 2008 by Guido Fawkes

quote:
I just want my cobbled-together server to sound as good as the Apollo

Yes and I want Ipswich Town to win the Premier League and FA Cup and world peace and an end to poverty, but .....

Seriously, the Apollo is a bargain. Until Naim brought out the CD5i, I don't think there was a better sub-£1k player. The Apollo is not cobbled together, it is the work of Terry Bateman with input from Roy Gandy. These guys have never cobbled anything to together, but carefully designed some of the best value for money products ever made (and I don't just mean in the audio field). The software in the Apollo is brilliant, it optimises the machine for each CD it plays to get the very best out of relative modest components. The DAC was very carefully chosen to work sympathetically with the transport.

So Mister Pierce, you are looking for a DIY music server that outperforms one of the best sub-£1k musical source ever made by two of the most respected people in the industry; I think you are going to find that tough.

I've heard a Stello DAC with a PURE DAB radio and I thought it easily outperformed the on-board DAC - so I think it is an excellent product, but if it comes nowhere near the standard of an Apollo let alone a Naim CD player. The Stello will improve the performance of a PC playing music and will satisfy many folk, but I'm sorry it won't come close to what you're seeking.

Perhaps Rega or Naim will produce a stand-alone DAC that does this - perhaps Linn almost has. Why not have a listen to the Linn Akurate or even Klimax. These are very well made and designed products and they are not cheap - so my question is if these don't outperform the humble Rega Apollo (and I'm not saying they don't) then what chances has a sub-£1k DAC?

I don't think you're going to find an (easy?) answer to the challenge you have put forward.

ATB Rotf

Posted on: 09 May 2008 by abbydog

quote:
the exchange of arguments and counter-arguments respectively advocating propositions (theses) and counter-propositions (antitheses). The outcome of the exercise might not simply be the refutation of one of the relevant points of view, but a synthesis or combination of the opposing assertions, or at least a qualitative transformation in the direction of the dialogue.... dialectic.

quote:
Chris with all due respect to yourself, and your 2600 posts, suggesting the above, does not help the dialectic.

quote:
I typed exactly the title your thread into the 'Find' function and came up with several past threads

quote:
It make some of us feel like we are getting made fun of.

Posted on: 09 May 2008 by Gianluigi Mazzorana

"The dac is on the table"

Posted on: 09 May 2008 by gary1 (US)

PC Stockton, I hope you saw my thread on "Reflection: this forum..." I think that there are alot of DACs out there that people are running to that do not deliver audiophile quality sound much less "naim quality sound" just to hook up to the PC, but don't really deliver any performance. I haven't tried some of the much more expensive DACS as the Linn DS series or the Wadia DACs. Seems by the time people repeatedly buy and swap and add mods they could have just bought the HDx

Posted on: 09 May 2008 by Chris Kelly

quote:
the exchange of arguments and counter-arguments respectively advocating propositions (theses) and counter-propositions (antitheses). The outcome of the exercise might not simply be the refutation of one of the relevant points of view, but a synthesis or combination of the opposing assertions, or at least a qualitative transformation in the direction of the dialogue.... dialectic.

No shit. here's a another 3 syllable word for your lexicon. I-R-O-N-Y

Posted on: 09 May 2008 by Gianluigi Mazzorana

Posted on: 09 May 2008 by Adam Meredith

quote:
Originally posted by Gianluigi Mazzorana:
"The dac is on the table"

Or versa vice.

Posted on: 09 May 2008 by pcstockton

quote:
Originally posted by gary1:
PC Stockton, I hope you saw my thread on "Reflection: this forum..." I think that there are alot of DACs out there that people are running to that do not deliver audiophile quality sound much less "naim quality sound" just to hook up to the PC, but don't really deliver any performance. I haven't tried some of the much more expensive DACS as the Linn DS series or the Wadia DACs. Seems by the time people repeatedly buy and swap and add mods they could have just bought the HDx

I did read it and daddycools initial comments are right on... i believe.

I will no longer comment on the HDX b/c it is obviously not for me.

Talking about over and over and over is getting me nowhere in the quest for a great external DAC, that matches well with a Naim kit.

If my search is futile, I will find that out soon enough. But I think 1 or 2 people out there are using one, so i keep my hopes up.

I spent $180 on my Beresford. Not quite $9000. And the reason for my search for a better one, here in the Forums, is so i wont spend unnecessary money as you suggest can happen.