DACs I have bought and sold...

Mister Pierce,

Nice write up!

Keep us posted.

rgds,
daddycool

quote:

Originally posted by daddycool:
Mister Pierce,

Nice write up!

Keep us posted.

rgds,
daddycool

YES!!! PLEASE do keep us informed. This information is exactly what i am looking for. Very helpful.

Once again, I will post a review of the Beresford after I get a chance to demo some other DACs this weekend, on my kit, with my Beresford as a "benchmark"

Lucky for you all I wasn't posting here a few months ago. My poor email correspondents had to delete thousand-word email detailing the sound of this and that DAC. Luckily you lot get the bullet-pointed executive summary. Sadly, I believed - or at least wanted to believe - that engineer/evangelist Elias's postings over at the headphone forums about DACs in general and about his company's product specifically meant that the DAC1 would sound as good to my ear as it does in an online forum posting. Ditto the Stello and it's rave reviews from bargain-seeking headphone listeners. Ditto again the "USB is the future" multi-part manifesto over at the Wavelength site.

I gots an ugly feeling that my best bet is to wait about four years and buy the HD5i...

I'm sure it's in poor taste to reply to my own reply, but I'm, I dunno... stymied.

When Fred McGoldenears at Fred's Mastering Hut puts the finishing touches on the latest hit by Blink 282 or BlackSNAIC, he's as likely as not listening to a file - a FILE - probably coming out of ProTools, maybe 96/24, maybe not, and quite likely over a digital coax connection - I hear pro audio folks haven't yet embraced USB - into his magic DAC.

Per the logic of "no Mac into no DAC can topple the mighty Apollo", Fred's million-dollar mastering job of Maroon 5i sounds terrible through his rig compared to my CDR of same when played at my house because my transport is in the same box as my converter.

I don't mean to be causing trouble or nothin', but this just seems so... counterintuitive, you know? I know that our favorite engineers are miracle workers & all, but bits is bits. The real deal goes down in the converter. And, per what I've read, most decent - and even indecent - DACs are pretty handy at dejittering the incoming ones and zeros, reclocking them all nice and smooth-like, so we don't need $10K Theta transports like the 'philes of old.

Whatever. I'm sure it won't be long before HDX-tech trickles down to something I can afford, at which point I'll stop posting on this thread & just go buy a black box at Hawthorne.

Seriously, I'm really tired of playing curator and clerk to a wall of a couple thousand CDs. Maybe the Lavry will be the one. Thirty-day risk-free trial period...

quote:

When Fred McGoldenears at Fred's Mastering Hut puts the finishing touches on the latest hit by Blink 282 or BlackSNAIC, he's as likely as not listening to a file - a FILE - probably coming out of ProTools, maybe 96/24, maybe not, and quite likely over a digital coax connection

Not at the mastering stage–SADIE, Sonic Solutions perhaps-and no, pros don't do USB

quote:

I hear pro audio folks haven't yet embraced USB - into his magic DAC.

Per the logic of "no Mac into no DAC can topple the mighty Apollo", Fred's million-dollar mastering job of Maroon 5i sounds terrible through his rig compared to my CDR of same when played at my house because my transport is in the same box as my converter.

The decimation to 44.1/16-bit is turd polishing, of a sort–a large amount of data has been thrown away and the end result is QCed to sound faithful to the original file, but it's not the same. A mastering engineer at this level is depressed, his client wants a louder mix and he/she is trying not to think about the depth or musicality that got away....

quote:

I don't mean to be causing trouble or nothin', but this just seems so... counterintuitive, you know? I know that our favorite engineers are miracle workers & all, but bits is bits. The real deal goes down in the converter. And, per what I've read, most decent - and even indecent - DACs are pretty handy at dejittering the incoming ones and zeros, reclocking them all nice and smooth-like, so we don't need $10K Theta transports like the 'philes of old.

Whatever. I'm sure it won't be long before HDX-tech trickles down to something I can afford, at which point I'll stop posting on this thread & just go buy a black box at Hawthorne.

You'd probably find a SUPERNAIT exactly to your liking.

I suppose I should at least go listen to a SN. One of those might not be too far out of the question moneywise after the sale of my 72, 140, Apollo (which I'd theoretically no longer need), and after factoring in the cost savings of not needing an outboard DAC - even more so if we factor in the money and headache involved in the DAC-quest so far. But I'm pessimistic, as I seem to be a tad finicky about sound, and so far the Stello, PS Audio, and Benchmark DACs have left me cold. And, per the posters here, the SN DAC, though good, isn't quite up to the standard to which we've all quite happily become accustomed.

But yeah, a quick trip to the shop to hear the SN, and specifically its DAC when feed Lossless files from my iMac, certainly wouldn't hurt. There are worse ways, I've found, to spend time than in the stereo store! But also quite high on the list is the Lavry trial offer. If both these ploys fail to produce the desired result I will for the time being shelve the Server Project and get to alphabetizing.

And I'm aware of the "loud mastering" disease and how big panoramic mixes get dithered down - hopefully no longer truncated - to little 44.1/16 snapshots, but I'm not after "you are there" realism, nor am I trying to compete with the admittedly superior sonics of vinyl; I just want a server to sound as good, or close enough to stop my whining, to the very lowest priced CDP that makes me go "wow". Not trying to make silk purses or undo the regrettable compromises that take place when smashing sound into 16-bit chunks, just wanna blast Van Halen without having to mess with the V section in the dusty lower right corner.

But yep, I'm just venting. After hearing the Lavry and the SN - assuming I don't like either - I will give up, and announce that I have done so. And when the HDX makes it to Seattle, I will give it a listen, and if I like it, which I assume I will, will set my alarm clock to go off in five years. That's all we've got.

Has anyone tried a SN's DAC with a SuperCap on it?

SUPERCAP cannot power the DAC section–upgrade supply only powers analogue stages (no relays) on SUPERNAIT.

However, a SUPERCAP will improve the tape buffer performance, albeit a bit underutilized.

David,

Surely, it has got to make a pretty good difference?

quote:

Originally posted by kuma:
Surely, it has got to make a pretty good difference?

Different external power supplies WILL have different effects on the sound coming out of a SuperNait - but because of improvements to the analogue side.

There will, one might predict, be some benefit to the DAC from the reduction of demand on the internal power supply.
I would expect this benefit to be constant and independent of the quality of the external supply - but you will (see above) hear improved sound with improved PSs.

And ... (inevitably) ... please don't call him Shirley. His name is Spartacus.

quote:

Originally posted by Adam Meredith:
And ... (inevitably) ... please don't call him Shirley. His name is Spartacus.

No (equally inevitably), I'm.....

quote:

There will, one might predict, be some benefit to the DAC from the reduction of demand on the internal power supply.
I would expect this benefit to be constant and independent of the quality of the external supply - but you will (see above) hear improved sound with improved PSs.

That makes sense.
It's possible an even inexpensive DAC can sound half way decent but I'd assume that one has to go through many trials and errors to find the acceptable combination as the OP is experiencing. ( and he's only try to best an Apollo CD player)

quote:

... please don't call him Shirley. His name is Spartacus.

Right.

I will make a note of that.

Not even trying to best the Apollo, just want as good as & nothing more. And I ain't talkin' labcoat/clipboard heavy scrutiny here, just anecdotal as-good-as-ness. Unfortunately, I seem to be sporting an invisible clipboard in the form of a "sound memory" - this phenomenon recently discovered - where I hear a piece of gear and know how it sounds, with reasonable & verifiable certainty, compared to something I heard days or weeks ago. But here I'm not looking for slight variances in presentation or frequency response - all I want is the lack of my own "hey, this sounds lousy!" response. Perhaps I should upend the source-first approach and merely add beer to the listener since that might prove to be a more cost-effective solution in the short term...

Its a difficult problem. I have had the SN at home this weekend and I have to say the Sonos through the SN DAC is a really nice combination especially with "good" quality MP3s from rhapsody. Very listenable and easy operation from a UI standpoint. However, paled in comparison to the CD5x(FC2x)through the SN (also FC2x). As an aside I preferred the SN/FC as opposed to the SN/HC. Most reports are a preference for the latter. However, to me SN/HC was a bit too bright and slightly unbalanced with the music-- made voices a little too upfront and hid the other musicians. So FWIW the next question is going to be what source to couple with the SN for audiophile quality (I'm excluding CDPs for discussion).

quote:

Perhaps I should upend the source-first approach and merely add beer to the listener since that might prove to be a more cost-effective solution in the short term...

...until you start feeding the subjects better-quality craft beers; you'll start to run into a $imilar problem.

I'm currently using a Benchmark Dac with USB and an iMac. My family can't tell the difference between this and a CDX2, either via NAP180/NAC82 or a Luxman 550AII amp. (HiLine with the Naim amplification).

I can tell the difference if I turn the music up loud. All the music has been imported using Apple Lossless. I'm happy with either setup.

Does build-up of earwax run in your family Networker?

quote:

Originally posted by 555:
Does build-up of earwax run in your family Networker?

You know 555, you really are a patronising old fart.

555,

"Does build-up of earwax run in your family Networker?"

Ha-ha! Could be. However I have no inclination to send them to the doctors lest they start developing a taste for really high end audio. I couldn't possibly afford to spend tens of thousands of pounds on hi-fi!!!

What's worse though is that I prefer the sound of vinyl to CD. Perhaps a visit to the doctors for me may be in order...

quote:

Originally posted by Mister Pierce:
all I want is the lack of my own "hey, this sounds lousy!" response.

When I was looking for a DAC, I wanted something similar sounding to Naim CD player. ( specifically something like a CDX level )

I realised quickly that not all DAC sounded the same even the cct. topology could be similar.
I tried several as you have and eventually settled on a 47Labs Shigaraki DAC and its upgraded power supply, Dumpty. ( its standard Shigaraki PS was a bit uncouth but I thought it shared a fun of Naim player )

If you are using a coax digital connection, try using a Naim DC1. Some of the Naim-ness will come back.

quote:

My family can't tell the difference between this and a CDX2, either via NAP180/NAC82 or a Luxman 550AII amp. (HiLine with the Naim amplification).

Networker,

My SO can't tell the difference between a NAP 300 and a valve amp.

Hi Kuma,

SO? Significant Other? Sorry don't know the abbreviation.

I'd love to even get to hear a NAP 300, let alone pit it against a valve amp. Lucky SO - even if they can't tell the difference?

Back on the issue of DACS did you compare the Benchmark to the Shigaraki and if so what was the difference?

I too am interested in hearing more about the 47 Labs DAC and its fancy ceramic casing. Is it possible to get one of these re-glazed in a certain shade of olive? But seriously, I tried and hated the Stello and the Benchmark, and thought the PS Audio was almost close but nowhere near a cigar. I'm hopeful about the Lavry, since I'd just be into them for shipping if I didn't like it. BTW also I think their return period is 15 days, not 30, FWIW. And the SN is out of the question for the time being, as a quick visit to the pocket calculator and then to the bank reveals that one of those black boxes is way out of my league at this time. But a US $1K DAC I can do. But, as I dance toward the fringe, such as with the Altmann battery-powered DAC-on-a-stick, the cost of buy/try/hate/sell goes way up per attempt. One other DAC of interest is the Grace M902, but I'm leery as it comes highly rated by the same magazine that gave the Benchmark a "Class A" designation. Personally, I would give that magazine an F - both the grade and the sentiment, though I will remain a paid subscriber. Kinda the same deal as a car wreck: you can't not look.

But back to the DAC... Kuma, if you are so inclined, would you please tell what DACs you tested, how you would rank them, and how they compared against sources with which I might be familiar? This would be most helpful.

I still suspect that my best bet is to keep myself otherwise occupied for a while until Naim starts selling a not-quite-reference server setup.

quote:

Originally posted by Networker:
Back on the issue of DACS did you compare the Benchmark to the Shigaraki and if so what was the difference?

Unfortunately not at the same time. But they sound so different in that no AB necessary anyways.

My impression of the Benchmark:
Stark.
I'm sure this piece measures better and lower noise floor and all that, but it sounded like a piece of studio equipment not at all what I want for my Hifi.

Kuma

Do you still use the Shigaraki? Is the DC1 an interconnect?

I am still on the DAC Quest. My CDX sounds better with every amp upgrade (as you'd expect) but I am hooked on the convenience of streaming music.

It may be a while before 2nd hand HDXs reach my budget and if I feed Adam's cryptic comments into my crystal ball someone in Salisbury is working on a DAC but I am still looking for something more satisfying in the short term.

Gus

quote:

if you are so inclined, would you please tell what DACs you tested, how you would rank them, and how they compared against sources with which I might be familiar? This would be most helpful.

MP,

Not sure if my experience is helpful but here goes:
I've started from the rock bottom:
Sonica USB DAC
At that time there weren't a whole lot avaialable with a USB connection and I just wanted to better the internal DAC of a Powerbook G4.
It was better and got me thinking I wanted something with a coax digital on it. I've already tried an opetical vs. coax cable comparo and have decided I prefer the coax. I've done some USB cable rolling, too. Alas, they do vary. ( shorter was better )

M-Audio USB/Coax DAC:
A step up from the Sonica but this one I could put my digital cable of choice.

Either DACs were not anywhere near a stand alone CD player but it was better than an internal DAC off my laptop.

Channel Island DAC-1 & optional power supply

With an optional power supply, the frequency extension got a lot better but it's a soft sounding slow piece. The dynamically challenged in that a use of valve amp came in handy, but this is a sort of DAC that rolls off everything. As might as well, put a blanket over your head and go to sleep.

Musical Fidelity: DAC1 with an optional power suppy.
As above. An optional PSU improved things but not quite cutting it.

I think all those entry level DAC had a tendency to smooth stuff out so the bit starved MP3 or cheap digital don't sound quite bright. But it ended up killing the tune in process.

Bel Canto DAC1, 1.2 and 2:
A DAC1 and 1.2 were a total snoozer. a sort of like the Channel Island DAC.
A DAC2 was quite a lot better in terms of dynamics and pacing but it's still a slow piece. I did end up buying this one since I thought this had a pretty good VFM particularly against the Chord DAC 64.

Chord DAC 64:
A well reviewed good looking piece. I really wanted to like this one as it looked so cool.
Artificial leading edge, coupled with somewhat bloated midbass did not sit well. It had the best resolution over anything I have heard ( except Krell kps25s still beat it by a mile and now a CD555 betters it. ), but it was fatiguing to listen to over the long run.

Ack!DAC: original version & later serial
Two different sounding DAC. The original had livelier presentation than the later unit but it oscillated my amp. ( a lack of filter )

The later version DAC fixed this problem but it now sounded soft and benign. It did the sondstage thing better than the original, but then ended up not doing anything particularly good.

Acoustic Arts DAC1:
No sense of organics or naturalness. Missing midrange. What a bore.

Gill Audio Elise valve DAC:
Well, this is more like it!
Sounded like more dynamic version of the CDS3/555PS. I wasn't really prepare to pay 6 grand for a DAC not to mention this piece didn't fit on the Fraim. :x
But I got to see what can be possible from a DAC.
This unit came with upsampling and non upsampling socket and every time, my preference was the latter.

Benchmark DAC1: ( original version )
er.. my Krell sounded more organic and expressive than this one. Impressive at first, but so what.
Over the years I have tried my Krell kps25's as a DAC or utelising Wadia CD player's digital inputs but always preferred to use it as a single CD player.
Also, I have tried a dcs separate DAC/upsampling converter. Nice. but not my sound. Natural, airy and ethereal sounding units but lacked in excitement and timing. Krell DAC isn't the fastest thing around either, but at least it's got some balls.
The same goes for the Accuphase DP100. Slow.I had a better luck with their CD players.

A Linn Numerik was not bad when used with their transport but then I preferred their newer one unit Ikemi better.

Oh yeah.. I've also tried the Meridian DAC sounding like a poorman's Krell. ( no thanks. I already have the real thing. :x )

I wasn't expecting much out of Shigaraki thing but I had an opportunity to demo at home.
It sounded so fresh and alive right out of the box.
I can't say it has the lowest noise floor or has a lot of resolution ( it really doesn't particularly on trebles ) but somehow it made the music listening fun as a Naim Cd player.
It really is a mouse that roared. The music just bouncing along happy. ( looking back it does have a similar voicing to the Miyabi/47 cartridge )

With a Dumpty PSU, I recall it sounded pretty close to a bare CDX.

Obviously I haven't exhausted all the DAC options, but after all that I still like my CD players the best.