DACs I have bought and sold...

quote:

Originally posted by gary1:
I have to say the Sonos through the SN DAC is a really nice combination especially with "good" quality MP3s from rhapsody... However, paled in comparison to the CD5x(FC2x)through the SN

You are comparing apples with oranges if you tested compressed MP3's against CD's.

So, staying with 16-bit quality...

We need to get away from the idea that a spinning compact disc is somehow superior to a spinning hard disc in terms of retrieving analog information from digital signals. It isn't. It may well be that we prefer the sound of our nice Naim CD players over a pristine raw feed from a high-quality DAC, but this has nothing to do with the fact that there's a CD spinning in the former, and everything to do with what electronic components the information passes through on its way to the DIN output. Of course there are other considerations for choosing one medium over another - tactile interface, storage etc - but let's not confuse the central issue of extracting accurate information from a recording and replaying it because in this respect, in a well-designed system with comparable error-correction, there is no difference.

The ideal test would be to design two devices as electronically identical as possible in terms of clocking and D-A conversion, but one reading data off a CD and one reading off a Hard Disc and then test them side by side into the same amp. Maybe a CDX2 vs HDX test is quite close to this sort of scenario, although ideally you'd want the option of piping a digital output from both to an external DAC to compare onboard vs external conversion.

Now let's talk about what DAC's can really do, ie play 24-bit quality...

Of course the whole argument is moot once we start moving up to 24-bit/96k recording; this is where the whole recording industry should have moved 15 years ago when it was perfectly obvious that 16/44.1k entailed throwing away far too much depth and musical information to represent a satisfactory long-term end-medium. The same recording at 24/96k, replayed through the same high-quality DAC, will blow away anything that has had to be dithered and down-sampled to 16/44.1k. Period. I can hear it, you can hear it, Naim can hear it, we can all hear it. It's a travesty that we're still discussing the CD555 and CDX2 when we should be discussing the DVD555 and DVDX2! And I mean no disrespect to Naim here, they are boxed into a corner by the music industry, as are we.

Why we (and I include myself here sadly) are still putting up with 16/44.1k is utterly beyond me - it's an exercise in turd-polishing of the highest order and the greedy music industry is to blame. This is perfectly evident to anyone with a brain and is manifest in:
1) 30 years of artificially-inflated CD prices
2) Sluggish or stubborn non-adoption of new standards, ie DVD-A
3) An unhealthy paranoia and futile predilection for ludicrous 'copy-protection' systems
4) An obsession with fast profits over preserving musical heritage
5) Total failure to adapt to new methods of distribution, ie internet etc

quote:

Originally posted by James Lehmann:
It may well be that we prefer the sound of our nice Naim CD players over a pristine raw feed from a high-quality DAC ...

How bizarre - almost like when some people, with high quality turntables, couldn't appreciate the pristine raw feed of CD.

Perhaps DACs, like CD, need a period of time in which to improve on their perfection.

Kuma,

Thanks for your further impressions on the Benchmark and the detailed investigation into the other dacs.

My ancillaries are not as accomplished so 'fortunately' I don't experience the starkness with the Benchmark. (or it may be earwax which may be the issue as 555 has suggested...). There is a difference between my CDX2 and the iMac/Dac but not enough for me to mind, within my system.

However, from reading the views of Kuma, Mister Pierce and others I'm beginning to think there may be something not quite right with my CDX2 so will get it checked out and report back (if anyone is interested) in a new thread. I doubt there is anything wrong though...

I'm waiting for a version of the Naim HDX priced for the rest of us, although I haven't heard the current HDX yet...

Hi Kuma,

What other gear did you do your comparisons with? I'm glad I didn't react too hastily to my first comparisons because I was put off.

I wasn't very impressed with the DAC1, I thought it sounded detailed but clinical and lacking soul and weight. I was using a Meridian 500 transport/coax.

Recently, I bought a Mac and started streaming lossless music using Airport/Optical into the DAC1. This is much better and has really surprised me. Whereas before I would have pointed to every aspect of my CD player being better, it is now much closer.

To the extent that there are areas at the top end where CD sounds a little 'rolled off' by comparison. There are definitely aspects where I still prefer the CD player but I now really enjoy streaming and it has inspired me to experiment further on the DAC side, because the gap is relatively small. Incredibly so, given the difference in cost.

Regards,

Steve

quote:

Originally posted by James Lehmann:
...and the greedy music industry is to blame. This is perfectly evident to anyone with a brain and is manifest in:
1) 30 years of artificially-inflated CD prices
2) Sluggish or stubborn non-adoption of new standards, ie DVD-A
3) An unhealthy paranoia and futile predilection for ludicrous 'copy-protection' systems
4) An obsession with fast profits over preserving musical heritage
5) Total failure to adapt to new methods of distribution, ie internet etc

The music industry is certainly an industry whose main reason for existence is to make profit. All of the things you mention are there just to make more profit for that industry. Most consumers don't care about new standards such as DVD-A as the systems gnerally used for replay don't really show up any improvements. I can't see 24/96K becoming a new standard as I can't see who would drive the adoption of it. The demand is certainly not going to come from the mass market as those folks are primarily concerned about ease of use and access. If quality was a primary driver of music sales iTunes wouldn't have got as far as it has. What we really need to drive demand for high quality music is a $499 Naim system 4. Bring it on.

quote:

Originally posted by thesherrif:

quote:

Originally posted by 555:
Does build-up of earwax run in your family Networker?

You know 555, you really are a patronising old fart.

I have reported you to the The Police Professional Standards department;
you are thesherrif & you have previously preached to us about changing the nature of this forum,
so you should know better than to be abusive & hypocritical.

To be fair if you wish to parade your sense of humour by-pass in public that's your prerogative.

quote:

Originally posted by roo:
The music industry is certainly an industry whose main reason for existence is to make profit. All of the things you mention are there just to make more profit for that industry. Most consumers don't care about new standards such as DVD-A as the systems gnerally used for replay don't really show up any improvements. I can't see 24/96K becoming a new standard as I can't see who would drive the adoption of it. The demand is certainly not going to come from the mass market as those folks are primarily concerned about ease of use and access. If quality was a primary driver of music sales iTunes wouldn't have got as far as it has. What we really need to drive demand for high quality music is a $499 Naim system 4. Bring it on.

I agree with most of this bar your conclusion: Naim can't "drive demand for high quality music" - consumers can.

If every single one of us stopped buying CD's from one day to the next and demanded a 24/96k DVD-A or downloadable version for the same price, now we'd be talking.

Me? I'm considering mailing all my 1400 CD's back to the individual record companies with a demand that they either refund my purchase or furnish me with the 24/96k version they most certainly have archived somewhere. I've paid once for the music on the album, and an inferior CD version is in many respects damaged goods - my consumer rights deserve better than this.

quote:

Me? I'm considering mailing all my 1400 CD's back to the individual record companies with a demand that they either refund my purchase or furnish me with the 24/96k version they most certainly have archived somewhere.

Please take a film crew _ I'd love to see those conversations.

quote:

If every single one of us stopped buying CD's from one day to the next and demanded a 24/96k DVD-A or downloadable version for the same price, now we'd be talking.

Yes there would be lots of cheap CDs for me

At least CD is a read-only format unlike Hard Disk and you don't have to use the Internet to get your favourite music.

quote:

Originally posted by Networker:
However I have no inclination to send them to the doctors lest they start developing a taste for really high end audio.

I admire your wisdom, & wish I'd considered this issue sooner.

Mrs. 555 has severely bent my ear over the years due to my systems,
so I encouraged her to enjoy mine in the hope of peace breaking out.
Now she's seriously wanting her own HiFi - at least it's good news for my dealer!

Kuma: thanks a ton for sharing your DAC notes.

Regarding turd-polishing, it is my intention to do exactly that with a mixture of beer and earwax, as the alternative is money, which at my house is in much shorter supply. That and patience. I'd just listen to vinyl if I didn't mind messing with a level and a protractor, not to mention a demagnetizer. Anyways, I'm quite happy with the turd's state of polish through my complete system which I put together for the price some posters would pay for a rack or a couple of cables. The easy solution, buy an HDX, would in one swoop quadruple the price of my stereo.

So I will continue to listen to DAC after DAC, perhaps settling on one or maybe just getting a SB and living with that un-DAC'd for couple of years, as I'm sure Naim, the second-hand market, and a host of other manufacturer's will in time have products available that suit both my taste and my budget.

But again, being a hifi bottom-feeder, I should maybe steer clear of the cutting edge and just be thankful that I have as sweet a system as I've currently got for such a (comparatively) tiny cash outlay.

Oh, and Kuma, did you ever try the fancier 47 Labs DAC, the one for which your Dumpty PSU was intended?

quote:

Originally posted by James Lehmann:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by gary1:
I have to say the Sonos through the SN DAC is a really nice combination especially with "good" quality MP3s from rhapsody... However, paled in comparison to the CD5x(FC2x)through the SN

You are comparing apples with oranges if you tested compressed MP3's against CD's.

James, I agree. I was only commenting upon what I heard playing Sonos with Rhapsody MP3 files and wav files stored on my NAS either analog to my original Naim system or digital through the SN. There have been alot of threads with people commenting on how somehow the Sonos-->SN DAC was of better quality than Cd's through the CDP. I don't buy it. I am looking forward to when, I hope, 24/96 is available as adownload to my system. I am well aware from your comments that the debate moving forward will be the "all in one solution" eg HDX or the separates NAS/memory converter/DAC which is where others are going.

555,

Yep - I know the feeling. We have had some humdingers around hi-fi and I am sorry to say have reduced my partner to tears when I once turned up with a number of boxes. Nothing gets past her. I remember when I'd upgraded from a CD3.5 to a CDX2. We were talking about something when she pointed at the CDX2 (buried amongst eight other boxes in the rack I thought) and calmly but threateningly said "What is that?"

I said "That's marriage on the rocks, dear. And I also fancy something else on the rocks" and left for the pub.

Mister Pierce,

It sort off pains me to hear that you may be destined to listening to dac after dac... but perhaps some of us were not meant to derive complete satisfaction from digital (CD/Hard disk based) at a price that we can afford. I just wanted to point out that a good turntable does not require fiddling with once set up and perhaps you should reconsider this route and select a dac compromise that will allow you to enjoy your music.

Here's the compromise that works for me: dac/hard disk - for most of my listening in company, working etc. TT at other times. And the Oxfam near my work and the Oxfam near my home does great quality vinyl between £1.00 and £1.99.

I have lately purchased some sampler 24/96 tracks from Linn. These are very good, and play very nicely through my DAC, and in my opinion outperforms CDX2/16 bit CD. I am not the greatest fan of Linn artists/music in general though

Also, I am not happy to pay £18.00 per album quite yet - although am prepared to pay that for pristine must have vinyl.

Pains me too, but not because I'm not getting that last drop of music from my chosen format. I am well aware that vinyl sounds better, once you get to a certain level hifi-wise. And I suspect my rig is up to that level, and I am quite certain that I'd be able to tell the difference. But my goal merely was to get to "good enough" on my current setup, as compared to my current CDP, with my collection of CDs - all three of which are compromises; the first two because of money, and the last due to my having gone with the flow over the last couple decades and assembled a giant collection of music on the format du jour and not wanting to rebuy it in yet another format.

The reason I keep going with this is because I had such good luck in the bang-for-buck department choosing a CDP, preamp, amp, and speakers - all purchased used save for the CDP - and I pigheadedly expect this run of luck to continue. And I just *know* that there's a DAC out there with a reasonable price tag that doesn't make me leap for the "off" button within seconds of turning it on.

The sound quality I experience from my current setup, while not perfect, is quite satisfactory to me. It's light-years beyond anything I've ever owned, and seems to be up to the task of impressing my friends. And this is with CD as my sole source. Just want a DAC, or some sort of server solution, that I can stand which is available at my price point.

Were I to do this all over, I would have not bought the computer until I had the DAC chosen, and I would have auditioned as many DACs as I could for free, or close to free, before going the buy/sell route.

Et cetera...

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Networker:

I have lately purchased some sampler 24/96 tracks from Linn. These are very good, and play very nicely through my DAC, and in my opinion outperforms CDX2/16 bit CD.

Networker, I would pay a subscription fee however whether it is Linn or Naim which would allow on demand access to all the music

quote:

Of course the whole argument is moot once we start moving up to 24-bit/96k recording; this is where the whole recording industry should have moved 15 years ago when it was perfectly obvious that 16/44.1k entailed throwing away far too much depth and musical information to represent a satisfactory long-term end-medium. The same recording at 24/96k, replayed through the same high-quality DAC, will blow away anything that has had to be dithered and down-sampled to 16/44.1k. Period.

the trouble is that the mainstream recording industry is never gonna do it.
So we end up with handful of audiophile labels/recordings which don't mean much to me.
I have demoed the 24/92 or even 24/192 capable upsampler and I was not impressed at that time compared to my Krell player.

This was 5 years ago and the available music was scarce then.(96/24 Super audio thing as well as DVD-A thing ). I have to admit the latter was better than the conventional disc played side by side.

For me, the music drives the format I use.
Not the other way around.

quote:

Do you still use the Shigaraki? Is the DC1 an interconnect?

Gusi,

Not at the moment.
After my SB2 was fixed, I haven't bothered putting it back in. ( I might be permanently scared from the last horrible installation process and user interface )

The last time I used it was when the Krell unit had to go in for a recap and I used the DAC with a DVD player as a transport.

quote:

My ancillaries are not as accomplished so 'fortunately' I don't experience the starkness with the Benchmark. (or it may be earwax which may be the issue as 555 has suggested...). There is a difference between my CDX2 and the iMac/Dac but not enough for me to mind, within my system.

Networker,

I don't think my system is anything special. I used a Nait 3R for crying out loud. :x
There is such a thing as a system balance. I've gotten away with it as far as I could.

quote:

What other gear did you do your comparisons with?

Steve,

My usual Supercapped Nait 3R and EAD DVD player as a transport. ( with a DC1 )
One thing might be going for you tho, is that you use a valve amp. it usually put some meat back as well as a better dynamics compared to all solid state system.

quote:

Originally posted by kuma:

Steve,

My usual Supercapped Nait 3R and EAD DVD player as a transport. ( with a DC1 )
One thing might be going for you tho, is that you use a valve amp. it usually put some meat back as well as a better dynamics compared to all solid state system.

Hi Kuma,

I see what you mean, but trying the DVD and CD transports (coax) against the optical feed from the Mac - they still sound worse. A bit shouty and lacking involvement. The Mac lossless stream sounds really very good, no fatigue and very open. Lacks a bit of "weight" and "fleshing out" compared to the CDS3 but heck, it is only about $1600 plus your notebook/computer.

Even though I'm really pleased, I hate mysteries so I'm trying to find out why when it is fed by a CD transport it doesn't work so well. Playing CDs directly through the Mac works fine. I also now have one of the Lavrys to compare with the DAC1, it will be interesting to see if the same difference is repeated.

Regards,

Steve

quote:

Originally posted by Steve S1:
I see what you mean, but trying the DVD and CD transports (coax) against the optical feed from the Mac - they still sound worse. A bit shouty and lacking involvement.

Shouty wasn't the problem with the EAD DVD transport. It's a bit slow ( IIRC, it uses Toshiba transport )
The music sounded a bit sat on with the Benchmark.
Swap the DAC with the 47Labs, and I got the life back.*

See... this is the problem with a DAC/transport/cable thing. You get different results from various combination. :x

If the Mac lossless with optical works for you, that's a nice simple system without much box/cable clutter.

I know that a HD *transport* is actually a bit more neutral and had a faster presentation than the EAD. When I borrowed a uber stand-alone CD transport, I had trouble hearing the difference which I thought was interesting. Altho, my geek friends tell me technically I am not supposed to hear any differences amongst the transports. ( I can't remember why, but he went on and on about why yet there was the difference with the same cables and DAC!. ) :x
So, next to a computer based playback, using the same DAC, a 8K audiophile transport seems a bit overpriced in that context.

quote:

The Mac lossless stream sounds really very good, no real fatigue and very open. Lacks a bit of "weight" and "fleshing out" compared to the CDS3 but heck, it is only about $1600 plus your notebook/computer.

Using the optical cable, the lack of weight and body, MIA bass dynamics, was the biggest problem for me. That's why I eventually gave up on the optical connection. I suppose my system is leaner sounding than yours, probably. ( remember, I am using a Wilson standmounts which doesn't have much of a midbass rise. )

All of my coax cables I have on hand have a warmer tonal balance and pretty open topend. The Naim's DC1 is amongst them so I am puzzled where the shouty bit is coming from.

quote:

Even though I'm really pleased, I hate mysteries so I'm trying to find out why when it is fed by a CD transport it doesn't work so well.

Keep rolling the dice and eventually, you'll hit the jack pot.

* Also, keep in mind that I don't mind the CDX's rolled off top end.

Kuma,

Nice to have you back in this discussion.

Based on your postings last year (and of Dave Dever) I decided to take the following route:

- iBook with large HD (backup to TimeCapsule)
- iTunes with AIFF ripped files
- TC Electronic Konnekt 8 Firewire interface
- Naim DC-1 coax
- 47 Labs Shagaraki DAC (with standard PSU)
- Chord Chrysalis interconnect.

So far I have the Konnekt 8 and the Chrysalis so I have some more saving to do.

The Konnekt is already nice. I use it with a Rega Ear now and some Sennheisers. Looking forward to the end result over the speakers.

BTW I understand that since Logitech took over Slimdevices the software is now called SqueezeCenter and it should be a less geeky experience.

There is a chap selling a CD-555, together with a NAPS-555.

The reason?

He has invested in a music streaming system. (He doesn't say which one). This means he can store all of his music on a hard drive and make his music accessible without a CD player.

The chap selling the CD-555 runs a Naim/Linn dealership.

When things like this are beginning to occur, a massive change is on its way.

Jack

Hey, this is slightly OT, but I'm the OP, so FWIW...

Has anyone here tried doing the server thing, and had decent sonic luck doing so, with DAC from the past?

Seems that used California Audio Lab, Wadia, Adcom, and even Theta DAC are available at or below the price of the ones I've so far tried and rejected. I'd prefer USB, as - per my understanding - there isn't the whole master/slave clocking issue, but - again per - Benchmark seems to be the only one with a handle on USB, and I don't like their sound. So coax and/or optical are fine. I plan to be a good little flat earther and throw out the spec sheet and just use the force. First rule of jazz & all...

quote:

Originally posted by Mister Pierce:
Has anyone here tried doing the server thing, and had decent sonic luck doing so, with DAC from the past?

Meridian 263 seems popular, but at the price of the Beresford or a Moodlab why bother?

Why don't you try a Firewire (to S/PDIF) interface instead of USB?

BTW Moodlab also have a USB DAC (the Dice, also available without USB), then there is Headroom who have a new Mini-DAC and the list just grows.

Good luck!

quote:

a massive change is on its way.

No shit Sherlock!
Things are always changing, but you correlation is at best dubious.

quote:

Originally posted by daddycool:
- TC Electronic Konnekt 8 Firewire interface

Eek! My friend has had nothing but trouble with his TC interface and is selling it!

If anyone is considering a high-quality Firewire interface for the Mac I recommend the Metric Halo ULN-2 - a very stable and fantastic-sounding box with an awesome reputation among the pro-recording fraternity. It's A-D-A too, meaning it can record and is therefore a great choice for anyone looking to archive vinyl at 24/96k.

quote:

Originally posted by daddycool:
... I decided to take the following route:

- iBook with large HD (backup to TimeCapsule)
- iTunes with AIFF ripped files
- TC Electronic Konnekt 8 Firewire interface
- Naim DC-1 coax
- 47 Labs Shagaraki DAC (with standard PSU)
- Chord Chrysalis interconnect.

So far I have the Konnekt 8 and the Chrysalis so I have some more saving to do.

...

47 Labs makes very interesting looking kit