HDX Rips vs. iTunes?

You assume wrong.

The SOON to be released software update will allow your HDX to rip to an off board location..but currently no.

However, to answer your ripping question, I have had the opportunity to compare HDX wav rips to iTunes wav rips and there is quite a difference.

Both Rips were saved out to the same playback source - external USB, and then played back via an HDX. I have also compared the rips on the Naim DAC and a Uniti, the difference is quality was consistant across all playback mediums.

quote:

Originally posted by PureHifi:
The SOON to be released software update will allow your HDX to rip to an off board location..but currently no.

However, to answer your ripping question, I have had the opportunity to compare HDX wav rips to iTunes wav rips and there is quite a difference.

Both Rips were saved out to the same playback source - external USB, and then played back via an HDX. I have also compared the rips on the Naim DAC and a Uniti, the difference is quality was consistant across all playback mediums.

Ok, cool.

Does that mean you have a beta version of the software update? How did you export the HDX rip to USB? Do you still have the files?

Thanks,
Peter

I think I can guess where this is going

For completeness you could even download a track from the Naim store and see how it compared to an HDX, iTunes, etc rip of the same music.

If you are not in the comfortable situation to have a HDX do your CD rips, then use a high quality CD/DVD drive and Exact Audio Copy (EAC) or dBpoweramp. Regarding both programs there are many "audiophile" set up guides to make sure you are ripping the audiophile way. Highly recommended is Chris Connakers article on the website "www.computeraudiophile.com" called "Computer Audiophile CD Ripping Strategy and Methodology". The HDX is a perfect ripper, but surely not any bit better than the above mentioned ones. Bit perfect ripping is not magic - it is all about the right settings. And yes, I have HDX made rips on my USB memory stick. As I said they are perfect, but so are other rips, too.

quote:

Originally posted by likesmusic:
I think I can guess where this is going

For completeness you could even download a track from the Naim store and see how it compared to an HDX, iTunes, etc rip of the same music.

Good idea, might give that a try.

Done.

Naim download is perfect! Sadly dBpoweramp is not strickly bit perfect.

As below:
CRC32 Filename

FD7CD754 Fred Simon Dreamhouse Old Folks Naimlable.wav
FD7CD754 Fred Simon Dreamhouse Old Folks EAC.wav
FD7CD754 Fred Simon Dreamhouse Old Folks iTunes.wav
FD7CD754 Fred Simon Dreamhouse Old Folks Winamp.wav
FD7CD754 Fred Simon Dreamhouse Old Folks Foobar.wav
4C9EA9D4 Fred Simon Dreamhouse Old Folks dBpoweramp +6 Offset(Default).wav

You decide, but it seems that by adding the +6 offset the conspiracy with dBpoweramp continues. Maybe a nice piece of self-fulfilling prophecy?

All being Naim downloads are not compromised in same way (though their file name is rather similar to iTunes on their download?), it appears there is nothing special with the HDX rip, since EAC, iTunes, Winamp, Foobar are identical.

But this was always the case, right? No one thought the HDX was different?

Peter

Peter - I responded to this on the other thread where you posted the same results.

quote:

Originally posted by PMR:
All being Naim downloads are not compromised in same way (though their file name is rather similar to iTunes on their download?), it appears there is nothing special with the HDX rip, since EAC, iTunes, Winamp, Foobar are identical.

But this was always the case, right? No one thought the HDX was different?

Peter

Can I ask - do any of them sound different in playback ?

quote:

Originally posted by PureHifi:

quote:

Originally posted by PMR:
All being Naim downloads are not compromised in same way (though their file name is rather similar to iTunes on their download?), it appears there is nothing special with the HDX rip, since EAC, iTunes, Winamp, Foobar are identical.

But this was always the case, right? No one thought the HDX was different?

Peter

Can I ask - do any of them sound different in playback ?

They sound the same.

quote:

Originally posted by PureHifi:
Can I ask - do any of them sound different in playback ?

PureHiFi - Some weeks ago, on this thread here, you claimed that different rippers sounded different. Specifically you said:

"Ripping the software used does affect the final playback, Chris had files from the same CD Track ripped to WAV with several software packages (WMP, iTunes, EAC, DBpowerAmp, HDX, etc) and the outright winner was the HDX rip - iTunes sounded horrible - ragged & sibilant would best describe it."

On that same thread I challenged you to demonstrate whether your rips were bit identical or not. You didn't do so. OTOH PMR and myself I believe have demonstrated and offered evidence that all the the rippers you mention can, if used appropriately, produce identical rips if run on the same machine, and only differ for reasons to do with the drive offset if they are run on different machines. So the conclusions of your listening tests are very puzzling. You have attacked non-HDX ripping products, but you haven't checked whether you have used them properly.

So, how would you like to repeat your rips, verify that the checksums are the same - as they should be - and then repeat your listening test? Perhaps your conclusions will be different.

imo it would take a small miracle for two rips with the same checksum to sound different.

quote:

Originally posted by likesmusic:
PMR and myself I believe have demonstrated and offered evidence that all the the rippers you mention can, if used appropriately, produce identical rips if run on the same machine, and only differ for reasons to do with the drive offset if they are run on different machines.

How is that possible when you CANNOT correct the offset in iTunes?

quote:

Originally posted by likesmusic:
You have attacked non-HDX ripping products...

Please do not put words in my mouth...I did no such thing and if you have taken that from our findings then that was never intended to be the result.

I have no particular distaste for iTunes..in fact we have a Naim Label music listening station setup in store using a PC with iTunes (ALAC rips), CA DacMagic, Rega Brio and some Rega RS3's.

What we are trying to do is highlight that superior results require a bit of attention to deatil and that Naim have applied attention to detail in what they do.

quote:

Originally posted by PureHifi:

quote:

Originally posted by likesmusic:
You have attacked non-HDX ripping products...

Please do not put words in my mouth...I did no such thing

Utter nonsense. Your exact words, from your post if not your mouth, were "iTunes sounded horrible - ragged & sibilant would best describe it."

If that's not an attack on an iTunes rip, what is?

You claimed that WMP, iTunes, EAC and DBPowearamp rips differ and that all were inferior to an HDX. That is an attack on those non-HDX products. I am simply asking you to demonstrate you made those rips competently by calculating the CRC checksums of each and seeing what the result is. Since seemingly you can't get at an HDX rip, use instead a track you can both download from the NAIM store and rip from cd.

How about letting PMR and any other interested parties have copies of the HDX rip you copied to USB and the iTunes rip you made and which you claim sound different?

quote:

Originally posted by pcstockton:

quote:

Originally posted by likesmusic:
PMR and myself I believe have demonstrated and offered evidence that all the the rippers you mention can, if used appropriately, produce identical rips if run on the same machine, and only differ for reasons to do with the drive offset if they are run on different machines.

How is that possible when you CANNOT correct the offset in iTunes?

I didn't put it very well .. I meant that there are no differences between these rips when you take drive offset out of the equation. For a lot of people that'll be good enough, they won't care about a few samples of silence; for the odd pedantic pita opera lover like me (and I suspect you) it won't be, but that's a cross we just have to bear

At the end of the day PMR showed earlier on this thread that a download from the NAIM store has the same CRC32 checksum as an iTunes rip, and so is identical; how could an HDX rip be any different? Although PureHifi believes they are ...

quote:

Originally posted by likesmusic:
Utter nonsense. Your exact words, from your post if not your mouth, were "iTunes sounded horrible - ragged & sibilant would best describe it."

If that's not an attack on an iTunes rip, what is?

I guess attack is something different to you then...as the iTunes rip was the worst of the sample files it was worth trying to describe the difference.

I am more than happy to do some further comparision, so this morning I have made 2 rips of Dido's "Don't Believe in Love" track in iTunes Version 9.0.1.8 (with and without error correction and the also copied the rip from our naim server).

I care not whether they have a different CRC check (but would be curious to see if they are different in any way), but I will listen to them and report back as soon as I can.

OK - here we go...I blind tested a fellow worker with the WAV files and he picked the iTunes rip against the HDX rip each time. I played multiple times and mixed up the tracks in play order.

In my opinion the iTunes was much closer than the previous experience and this may be down to a later version of iTunes.

The iTunes rip was flatter and lacking low level detail and drive by comparison, but no longer as ragged or sibilant as our previous tests (although previously we had access to the DAC/282/SC/250.2/fraim and S-600's and this listen was on a unity with N-Sat/Sub speakers).

For interest only, the Checksum results are below.

01 - Don't Believe In Love.wav (iTunes No Error Correction)

MD5:
EB30466DC809EFCD63AA6064C2E16181

SHA1:
7E0986B640EC9C4348321DD821850228CA3586BC

CRC16 (ITU X.25/T.30):
86D4

CRC32 (ISO 3309):
9E1F3EFC

CRC64 (ISO 3309):
F958A80724DD42F5

RIPEMD-160:
9B9486DC7A2CC0EE5D5F49D7EBE2D5439EB313AC

MD4:
8B4080D06CA516B1FD851D58D0521464

eDonkey/eMule:
03EB077E46629CBCFADF20BFAF8905BA

TIGER:
21F8C084748BF3B18178C412C2FFEE67593F68429170F08C



02 - Don't Believe In Love.wav (iTunes with Error Correction)


MD5:
EB30466DC809EFCD63AA6064C2E16181

SHA1:
7E0986B640EC9C4348321DD821850228CA3586BC

CRC16 (ITU X.25/T.30):
86D4

CRC32 (ISO 3309):
9E1F3EFC

CRC64 (ISO 3309):
F958A80724DD42F5

RIPEMD-160:
9B9486DC7A2CC0EE5D5F49D7EBE2D5439EB313AC

MD4:
8B4080D06CA516B1FD851D58D0521464

eDonkey/eMule:
03EB077E46629CBCFADF20BFAF8905BA

TIGER:
21F8C084748BF3B18178C412C2FFEE67593F68429170F08C



03 - Don't Believe in Love.WAV (Naim NS01 music server)

MD5:
0927814896FAE39DEB8A9C21957CA34E

SHA1:
60903146799F8D01D8478CA080A63D8C5623DA3D

CRC16 (ITU X.25/T.30):
3A21

CRC32 (ISO 3309):
C2FADF66

CRC64 (ISO 3309):
CEE488B22CDF0032

RIPEMD-160:
1ABFCA60B130334FBB473595844CC10E7210FE7E

MD4:
0724B8297E37F7D4F9D4376247743817

eDonkey/eMule:
1FED043779B9B90EC6463AEBB9B85062

TIGER:
055BE98C1AAD7103778D43C6B2EA9E7BA5AF7A177D9976DA

That's interesting. Looks like iTunes managed 2 identical rips in a row (with different settings). But apparently they are both wrong in an identical manner. What are the odds of that?!

Why is that so hard to fathom? Doesnt mean anything.

quote:

Originally posted by winkyincanada:
That's interesting. Looks like iTunes managed 2 identical rips in a row (with different settings). But apparently they are both wrong in an identical manner. What are the odds of that?!

I don't consider one wrong and one correct - they just sound different...fasinating eh!

quote:

Originally posted by PureHifi:
I don't consider one wrong and one correct - they just sound different...fasinating eh!

Fascinating indeed!

You seem to have gone from "HDX was the outright winner and "iTunes sounded horrible" to "they just sound different". And now you don't even consider that the NS01 rip was correct!

It would be good if you could also rip that track with some of the other rippers you mention, and let us know what the CRC32 checksum is, and what the sq is. Even better, use a track that can be downloaded from the Naim store. Even better still, use the same track that PMR used. Then your results can be compared and we will have a factual basis for a useful discussion.

Likesmusic - What ever I say you will disagree with....but anyway...

"HDX was outright winner"..."iTunes sounded terrible" in the original thread the test equipment was a system far more revealing than the uniti used for todays test...

"They just sounded different" true and I was also happy enough to say "In my opinion the iTunes was much closer than the previous experience and this may be down to a later version of iTunes"

"And now you don't even consider that the NS01 rip was correct!" - again you are putting words in my mouth...I said "I don't consider one wrong and one correct - they just sound different"

While not everyone appreciates our findings or indeed even believes them, we take to time to test and post in the hope that someone will find the info interesting - bearing in mind that 99.9% of forum members are not resident in my area I have little to be gained as a Naim dealer by offering mis-leading information and offer our findings in total honesty and belief in what we hear, not what a checksum on a computer screen says.

I think I have exhausted the time available to me to offer anything that would add value to the topic than we have already commented on....so I will respectfully withdraw from making any further comment on this thread.

Rather than knocking each other all the time - i'd be more interested in working out why they do 'sound different'. As Joe will confirm, iTunes and XLD rips sound different and on some tracks there was a preference for different rips i cant say that one was better than the other. I'd just like to understand why.

James

quote:

Originally posted by james n:
Rather than knocking each other all the time - i'd be more interested in working out why they do 'sound different'. As Joe will confirm, iTunes and XLD rips sound different and on some tracks there was a preference for different rips i cant say that one was better than the other. I'd just like to understand why.

James

I can't say James. I (so far) haven't been able to repeat any differences when ensuring the same drive was used. So can't really say I've established much - I do intend to get one of those discs that Patrick has highlighted iTunes as missing hidden tracks.

I've since tried some opera recordings and couldn't split them. I look forward to hearing some of your rips (old v new).

I'm more concerned with the audio player and mastering of the CDs - there are some very obvious improvements at either of those ends.

Joe

Ok Joe - when you come over we can compare Naim downloads vrs iTunes vrs XLD

James.

PS - my car is now stuck at the bottom of our road so let's wait for a thaw first