Superstition ... a subjective hearing

Posted by: Arye_Gur on 30 September 2001

I copied the site.

For your enjoyment read this , I wonder what do you think about it -

Arye

[This message was edited by Arye_Gur on MONDAY 01 October 2001 at 09:58.]

Posted on: 01 October 2001 by Martin Payne
HTTP 400 - The page cannot be found
Posted on: 01 October 2001 by Paul Ranson
I think the orignal link may assume MS Word.

Try this for the same thing in a more universal format.

Paul

Posted on: 01 October 2001 by Arye_Gur
Arye
Posted on: 01 October 2001 by Martin Payne
quote:
"Microphony is an important factor in the sound of an amplifier, so any attempt at vibration-damping is a good idea."

Microphony is essentially something that happens in sensitive valve preamplifiers. If it happens in solid-state power amplifiers the level is so far below the noise it is effectively non-existent.
Experiments on this sort of thing are rare (if not unheard of) and so I offer the only scrap of evidence I have. Take a microphone preamp operating at a gain of +70 dB, and tap the input capacitors (assumed electrolytic) sharply with a screwdriver; the preamp output will be dull thump, at low level. The physical impact on the electrolytics (the only components that show this effect) is hugely greater than that of any acoustic vibration; and I think the effect in power amps, if any, must be so vanishingly small that it could never be found under the inherent circuit noise.
Let us for a moment assume that some or all of the above hypotheses are true, and explore the implications. The effects are not detectable by conventional measurement, but are assumed to be audible. ... Hence there must be defects in the audio signals, but they are not revealed by the usual test methods. How could this situation exist? There seem two possible explanations for this failure of detection: one is that the standard measurements are relevant, but of insufficient resolution, and we should be measuring frequency response, etc to thousandths of a dB. There is no evidence whatsoever that such micro-deviations are audible under any circumstances.



So why does my CDSII head unit sound noticably different when I use a different top-board on it's support table.

I suppose he's contending that I'm imagining it.

I think it's comical that he says he can demonstrate the effect on just one component, but then refutes the effect in an audio system.

This guy is saying that every stand ever sold is so much mumbo-jumbo and pseudo-science.

Not sure I can be bothered to try to critique any of the rest of this.

BTW, thanks Arye for reminding us that people like this still exist in the world of HiFi. Fascinating.

cheers, Martin

Posted on: 01 October 2001 by Sproggle
Thanks Arye smile

A very interesting article.

The great advantage of having something one disagrees with written clearly and coherently is that it's very easy to criticise almost everything he says, starting with his rather absurd distinction between "subjectivism" and "objectivism" in hi-fi.

So called subjectivism can easily be objectively explored, using the science of psychology rather electrical engineering. When statistically significant results are obtained for phenomena that have not been recognised by a particular engineer, it is up to that engineer to explain them rather than to pretend they don't exist.

A perhaps better description of the "subjectivist" approach is: when current theory contradicts reality, it's the theory that's wrong - not reality.

As for his remarks about parapsychology, they seem to reflect a bizarre belief among some scientists and engineers that such phenomena SHOULD not be investigated:

quote:
Another possibility is the study of parapsychology, now in deep trouble because after some 100 years of investigation it has not uncovered the ghost of a repeatable phenomenon.

To suggest this is to misunderstand the nature of science. The purpose of science is to investigate, not to pre-judge. To demonstrate the absence of a phenomenon [under given circumstances] is no more a failure than to discover that that phenomenon does exist. Of course, finding new phenomena is more exciting!

Parapsychology is an excellent field in which to practise the highest scientific standards - precisely because no parapsychological phenomena have yet been shown to exist, and because most of us believe they will not be shown to exist.

Making a false comparison between subjectivism and a branch of scientific investigation which, for no good reason, is widely ridiculed is not a exactly a sign that the writer intended a serious investigation of the question of "subjectivism" and "objectivisim" in hi-fi - no matter how many references he quotes...

--Jeremy

Inescapable conclusion: this forum is inescapable

[This message was edited by Sproggle on MONDAY 01 October 2001 at 14:37.]

Posted on: 01 October 2001 by Andrew L. Weekes
This guy is always an interesting read, and his articles on distortion in amplifiers make particularly good reading.

He obviously never uses his ears properly though, which is such a shame as he is a technically talented engineer. If only he could hear the effects that Naim, and most hi-fi users can hear he could produce some stunning designs.

I've often considered building one of his amplifier designs for some time now and implementing it well to see just how it sounds.

As for microphony, he's wrong to say that electrolytics are the only components that exhibit microphonic effects. I've seen and measured similar effects in ceramic capacitors (they seem to exhibit a piezo effect), both in PSU decoupling (producing noise on regulator outputs) and superbly in PLL circuits. The slightest tap and an output signal can be seen.

The effect was even shown in a Linear Technology application note I was reading recently, about their range of ultra low noise regulators.

It's a problem not just in audio, I work with equipment that has to work in a noisy electrical and mechanical environment, and these effects can be a real pain. Careful circuit design and component selection is necessary to minimise the effect.

I feel Mr Self's problem is his reliance on steady state and less relevant performance criteria (he quotes frequency response deviations for example in the microphony example.

It's all irrelevant though if he's not prepared to consider his ears as part of his test equipment armoury. He is unfortunately too blinkered to consider it, as years of correspondance in some electronics journals will attest.

Andy.

Posted on: 01 October 2001 by Martin Payne
quote:
4. THE LIMITS OF PERCEPTION.

In evaluating the Subjectivist position, it is essential to consider the known abilities of the human ear. Contrary to the impression given by some commentators, who call constantly for more psychoacoustical research, an enormous amount of hard scientific information already exists on this subject, and some of it may be briefly summarized thus:
The smallest step-change in amplitude that can be detected is about 0.3dB for a pure tone. In more realistic situations it is 0.5 to 1.0dB'". This is about a 10% change. [‎4]
The smallest detectable change in frequency of a tone is about 0.2% in the band 500Hz-2kHz. In percentage terms, this is the parameter for which the ear is most sensitive. [‎5]



I had always understood that the ear is more sensitive in some ways to the relationship between two different sounds than to changes in a single sound.

For instance I suspect a 0.3db treble lift compared to the midrange might be quite audible in a good system which is well setup.


quote:
A major improvement is more likely to be linked with a new circuit topology or new type of semiconductor, than with mindlessly specifying more expensive components of the same type; cars do not go faster with platinum pistons.

What do we make of this?

Is he saying that the material doesn't matter at all. Cast iron, perhaps? I wonder what they used in those Trabant cars, and why would any exotic sportscar use anything different?

In fact, it's ludicrous. Use of an exotic material (lighter, stronger, etc) could well reduce the stresses on an engine sufficiently to increase the safe rev or turbo boost limit over steel or whatever is normally used. (I can't say anything about platinum, since I know nothing of it's properties other than it's surface colour).

cheers, Martin

Posted on: 02 October 2001 by Paul Ranson
Most, if not all, pistons are made from aluminium alloys. A mix developed by Rolls Royce in WW2 is suitable for pretty much the most exotic applications.

Doug Self's point works here. If you replace the pistons in your engine with the same design cast in a better alloy you will spend money for little or no benefit, if I use the original alloy but produce them from forgings I'll have a much better piston.

But to do the job properly requires upgrading right through the engine, a piston that can handle higher revs and higher temperatures is of little use unless enough fuel and air can be provided to generate the higher revs and temperatures.

From an audio pov putting expensive capacitors into a flawed design rather than fixing the design. See Hifi World for many examples....

Paul

Posted on: 02 October 2001 by Martin Payne
quote:
Originally posted by Paul Ranson:
Most, if not all, pistons are made from aluminium alloys. A mix developed by Rolls Royce in WW2 is suitable for pretty much the most exotic applications.

Doug Self's point works here. If you replace the pistons in your engine with the same design cast in a better alloy you will spend money for little or no benefit, if I use the original alloy but produce them from forgings I'll have a much better piston.

But to do the job properly requires upgrading right through the engine, a piston that can handle higher revs and higher temperatures is of little use unless enough fuel and air can be provided to generate the higher revs and temperatures.

From an audio pov putting expensive capacitors into a flawed design rather than fixing the design. See Hifi World for many examples....

Paul



OK, point taken.

Suggests to me his point is badly argued, though. If that's the point he was trying to make he should have said so.

cheers, Martin

Posted on: 03 October 2001 by bam
Ayre, mate - it's taken me since Sunday to troll through this thick diatribe. Please don't do that again. Still, interesting stuff.

I definitely agree with the cable directionality debunk. I'm still waiting for answers to my poser on some week old thread (or weak old is true too).

As for the rest of it, it is all very well but I'm not sure what the reader is to make of it other than to be in awe of Self's broad knowledge. The history lesson is nice.

I've been designing amps and hifi bits for ages and my experience is (ignoring speaker effects):

1. If a audible difference can be heard then there is a measurable electrical difference - it can be measured by your ears so it can be measured in other ways too.

2. Your ears are the final measure. They don't deliberately lie although you have to be very careful to ensure repeatibility and avoid expectation bias. This is why blind tests are often used.

3. Humans are very prone to hearing what they would like to hear, particularly what experts tell them they should hear. This is how much hifi gets marketed. In general, humans are also very unskilled or unwilling to carry out unbiased and repeatible listening tests - sometimes its just not practical.

4. Fact: if you sample the voltage output an amp and compare it with the input signal, using equipment of even modest resolution, they will be different. Fact: if you sample the output from the same amp twice it will also be different, less so, but still different.

5. I've done 4. What you get is a LOT of difference. No shortage of difference. The problem is what you do with that data. The aggregate difference you see is actually the combination of all sorts of differences all scrambled together. Only some of those differences are audibly significant, some are just random noise and so on that don't matter that much. How do you untangle this mess and isolate the critical (audible) differences and then change their contribution one by one while listening to the amp and judging how much the sound ahs changed?

6. The ear is sensitive to amplitude, frequency, phase and all combinations thereof. The ear notices subtle phase jitter (like in CD players), it especially notices if any of these are unaturally related to one another or if new information is added - like new frequencies due to distortion. It really doesn't like it when distortions are correlated with the original sounds. That's how you can tell if there is a flaw in a crystal glass - because you get added noise that is related to the fundamental ring sound.

7. The ear really notices asymmetries - the positive half of the signal is different from the negative half in some way. It usually affects high frequencies and is also perceived as muddled bass or other low frequency issues because the distortion varies with the highest amplitude signal - which is usually bass. This is a really hard problem to solve in a push-pull output stage design: Much of Naim's technical advantage is in this area alone. This isn't in any university textbooks I've every read.

8. So what do you do? What you do is really think hard about what distortion mechanisms exist in a circuit and how these might end up being correlated to the signal you want to amplify. You surmize in theory what they may be and then you measure them and then change the circuit to improve that item and then measure it again and then listen again. If it sounds better you may be on to something. If not you may still be on to something but may have inadvertently made something else worse.

9. This isn't hocus pocus. It's just very, very hard and time consuming, not to mention needing expensive measurement equipment and very advanced insight into electrical component behaviour in order to surmise/intuit what may be an important parameter. You have to have good experimental rigour to ensure your changes really did sound better or worse. At the end of the day it can all be measured.

10. Damn...another bloody diatribe! roll eyes

[This message was edited by bam on WEDNESDAY 03 October 2001 at 13:40.]

[This message was edited by bam on WEDNESDAY 03 October 2001 at 13:42.]