Active SBL vs Passive NBL

I have to decide whether I want to keep the NBL's by Thursday. They are impressive in so many ways (more so every day), but I really need to get my active SBL's fired up again before I will know for sure if I am doing the right thing. I have had the experience before of feeling (after my old system is switched back on) that despite all of the positives in the new bit, on balance my old system is still works better (for me).

Another question. I could try and get another 2 135's and somehow change my Snaxo 2/4 to a 3/6 OR, I could dump the lot and get a NAP500. Is there any dispute that the NAP500 is the better option and if so, by what margin ?

All the best,

Mark.

Mark,

When I had NBLs I went from a pair of 135s, to a six pack (w/supercaped Snaxo), to a 500. The 500 was better in every way..a giant leap. It made the six pack sound broken. If you have a top flight source and 52/252/552 then the 500 is a no brainer. Worth every penny.

Chris Bell

Chris,

Thanks for that. It really helps to hear from someone who has "been there, done that". I find it hard to believe that one passive amp can beat 6 active, but anecdotal evidence seems to suggest that this is indeed the case.

You say "when I had NBL's". What did you replace them with and why ? Do you still have the NAP500.

Hi JPO,

I tried SL2's a few months ago and was very impressed by how much more the boxes disappear than SBL's and by their very sweet mid range and treble, but the pair that I had had virtually no bass (they were brand new) and when I switched back to SBL's I just prefered them. I was going to give the SL2's another try once they had been properly run-in and then the NBL's came up ..

Thanks again,

Mark.

Mark,

I replaced my NBLs with DBLs. I too found it hard to believe that a passive 500 could beat a Snaxo/Supercap/135x6 but the proof came in the demo and the difference was not subtle.

If you go active with 135s, the supercap and black burndy cable are manditory for the SNAXO as NBLs are very revealing.

Chris

Yo Tom !

You won't get any arguments from me on the active vs passive front. Up until now, the move from passive to active was the most hugely satisfying upgrade I have ever done. Fantastic value for money when you consider that it cured my upgrade fever for the best part of 5 years.

I now have a philosophical problem. Basically, the concept of turning off half of my rig and going back to passive with better speakers feels to me like a betrayal of the old order ideology, namely "source first" and yet NBL's with 2 135's (in my room and to my ears) are just incredibly superior to active SBL's. We are talking such fundemental and enormous differences that you may as well start again with your old favorites because their essence has been completely redefined by revealing hidden bass lines, kick drums, backing vocals, internal rhythms, lyrics, instruments, room/studio effects.

Sorry for coming over all evangelical, and I still need to hear my old system again to put things into perspective, but I guess that my message is that passive NBL's appear to represent a major upgrade over active SBL's, and this from, like your good self, a devoted and died in the wool "active man".

As for the 500. Pure greed, but that is the nature of the beast ..

All the best,

Mark.

Chris,

I am running SNAXO/SNAIC/SuperCap.

Did you compare SNAIC to Burndy. Was it much of an upgrade?

cheers, Martin

E-mail:- MartinPayne at Dial.Pipex.com

But wait, there's more ..

Last night I listened to some of my old favorites and am starting to have a few doubts. Some tracks sounded stunning but others that usually have me howling at the moon left me cold. Something was missing. I keep hearing that "NBL's are revealing", but I am wondering if it is possible to be too revealing. How close can you get to a thing of beauty before it becomes ugly ?

My active SBL's seem to do their best to present any source material in the best possible light. Generally, things either sound good or great. NBL's have a tendancy to make things sound anything from horrible to amazing, I suspect because they give you so much more information - maybe more than the producer intended you to hear. SBL's lend a richness, intensity and density to the sound, even at low volumes, that NBL's, I suspect because they are so efficient, don't give until ear bleeding volumes are reached.

So, already having a system that allows me to enjoy most of my music collection, I am loath to "upgrade" to one that may polarise my records based on how good they sound. I had systems like that before I found Naim. Of course the thought that occurs is "maybe the 500 will fix that", but I don't want to fall into the upgrade-to-fix trap that I escaped from 5 years ago.

Tomorrow is D-day. Back to the SBL's for a day, then decision time. Can anyone relate to the feelings I am feebly trying to describe and tell me if these "problems" will be cured by more run-in, better amplification, full frontal lobotomy ?

Hey Tom, my box count for your king of the castle rig shows 12. Even my missus would notice that lot.

Mark.

This is really embarrassing, and if I look back on what I have already said, there is a definite pattern of multiple personality emerging , but ..

Last night I went back to the stuff that wasn't working the night before and it sounded (and felt) perfect. I think that the problem was that because NBL's are so revealing of the tonal qualities of a recording, if you play something really forward and follow it up with something more laid back, it can make the second recording appear veiled. A bit like drinking a Cotes du Rhone after an Aussie Shiraz. As an example, try following Ryan Adams "Gold", with James Taylor "October Road" (I can hear echo's of "no thanks" but trust me, they are both very good). The first recording has very clear, forward, in-your-face vocals and the second is much smoother with the vocals much further back in the mix. Last night I had just listened to John Scofield/Pat Metheny "I can see your house from here" which was spine tingling, and was about to call it a night but decided to give the JT another go and ended up listening to the whole album again. I can honestly say I have never heard it sound as good (mind you, I probably had the mains to the street to myself).

Anyway, I have swung from hate to love to doubt and now back to love. Now I have the active 135 vs 500 question to deal with ..

Thanks again for your help,

Mark.

Martin,

You are starving your Snaxo with that SNAIC. Run to your dealer and get a black burndy...your jaw will hit the ground when you hear the difference.

Chris Bell

Hi Hockman,

Very true, but thinking ahead I am probably going to either end up with two 135's, a 6 pack or a 500 so I need to decide whether to keep all of my old gear or trade it in. Anyway Chris is bringing the 500 over tonight so hopefully I will soon have my answer.

I know you didn't like the NBL's and neither did I last time I heard them. I have always thought of them as just being aggressive, but this pair couldn't be less so. I guess it depends on the company they keep.

All the best, Mark.

"Chris is bringing the 500 over tonight"

Please keep us informed of your findings. When I did the demo of 250 to 500 and SBL to NBL I thought both were superb in isolation but didnt gel together somehow in that situation.

The demo was (still is - the NAP500 is mine till Monday) passive 135's vs passive 500 into NBL's.

I was right when I said that the problems that I had with the NBL's were to do with their ruthlessly revealing character. I was wrong in assuming that what was being revealed was poor source material. As it turns out, the problem appears to be that NBL's reveal the weakest link in the chain, which in this case appears to be the 135's. It is almost as if 135's are putting out more information than an SBL can interpret but that the end result is pleasing because what is left is all good. Move to NBL's and the extra information comes through clearly, but the picture becomes unbalanced because we have moved to a new level of resolution where you can hear everything that the amps are delivering, warts and all. This is pure conjecture. Don't ask me how the SBL's can filter the warts from the rest.

Enter the NAP500. Firstly the background to the music is so clean that the 135's sound dirty by comparison. Secondly detail is enormous, but the stunning thing is that whereas (in my experience) more clarity comes at a price - brightness - this amp is actually warmer than the 135's. I have always imagined that the best American amps are hugely detailed but bright and clinical with it. British equipment is warmer and less detailed but more musical. The NAP500 appears to give you the best of both worlds. Thirdly speed. It is remarkable how much more rhythmic music becomes because of an amp's ability to start and stop faster, and how removing a tiny bit of grunge at the start and end of a musical event like a string being plucked can make the event so much more realistic.

Anyway, as far as I am concerned, the NBL's with the NAP500 are the bollocks, so that's me sorted. To anyone contemplating a home demo of the 500 my advice is : Don't do it unless you can afford the inevitable consequences of doing something that makes your old system sound like a washing machine. Make sure you get one that has been run-in. My demo has 4 months on the clock and hasn't started sounding right until recently and I am told that it will continue to improve.

Enjoy.

Mark.

"It is almost as if 135's are putting out more information than an SBL can interpret"

Any thoughts such as these are dispelled when you go from 135 to 500 through SBL

"The music is so clean that the 135's sound dirty by comparison. Secondly detail is enormous"

Definitely the case with SBLs too

Im hoping to have a future strategy demo in the next few weeks (SBL/NBL/SL2 , CDS2 vs 3, 552 vs 52), looks like Cahoot might be taking a hit

Tom,

I would love to go active with 500's but I am saving up for the next time you offer your wife for sale.

Passively enjoying it all (for now).

Mark.

Normally I wouldn't pop in on a discussion of kit at this level as I have little experience with it. But anyway...

Minky -

Are your NBLs new out of the box? The fact that you had to turn the wick up initially and only got midrange tells me (aside from you having a duff bass driver) that this pair is brand new and will take SEVERAL HUNDRED HOURS of moderate to hardish playing before they free up. Until then, they are likely to sound colored in the midrange and just odd overall.

As for:

"Chris (the world's best Naim dealer) is going to replace the bottom cabinet with one from another brand new pair tomorrow."

...this would bother me. I don't mean to induce paranoia or cause an ulcer for you or your dealer, but I undertand that from the Allae on up, Naim MATCHES the drivers in pairs. So it is "not proper" to just replace one of the lower boxes. Unless, of course, this is a stopgap measure and a new proper pair is being shipped.

- GregB

Insert Witty Signature Line Here

Mark,

It's always fun to read peoples first experience with the 500. There was no way I could be convinced that a passive 500 could beat an active six pack until I heard it for myself. Its really an amazing piece of science and craftsmanship. You're right, though, do not demo the 500 until you can afford, because it will make everything else sound broken.


Chris Bell

It's really great to find that there are so many people out there that have had the same epiphany as me. Maybe I haven't lost my marbles after all.

Greg, firstly, yes they were brand new. They sound pretty amazing today so the next few months are going to be really interesting. Secondly, great minds think alike. When Chris replaced the bass box in my RH NBL (the bass box holds both of the bass drivers) I was concerned because when I blew a tweeter in my SBL's years ago he had to replace the drivers in both boxes. Chris said that although the drivers in each bass box are matched pairs, the drivers in one NBL are not matched to the other. The reason for this anomaly is that tolerances for these drivers is so fine that this degree of matching is no longer necessary. Maybe one of our moderators can comment ?

Mark.

Sounds like your dealer is well informed and ROCKS!!!

Enjoy your NBLs

- GregB

Insert Witty Signature Line Here

Minky,

I find it makes a HUGE difference sonically if you take the speakers out of their cardboard boxes before using them.

If you do this, the empty boxes also make really cool little huts you can hide in around the house, fooling er indoors if you stay really quiet which I find hard cos I usually start giggling really LOUD and then she finds me and we all have a good laugh over it aye!

Do any other 'readers wives' have other neat uses for the empty boxes I might not have thought of?

Cheers and god bless,

About to be banned,

Jonny.

Minky

Whats the latest with the NBLs? How did the break in go? Whats the current amp situation?

Glad you moved from SBLs?

Bosh,

Long story short : With 2 135's NBL's were bigger, bassier, but just not as involving as the active SBL's that I had loved for years, and selling 2 135's, SBL's, supercap, snaxo in the hope that the running in process would fix this was too much of an act of faith - I could end up with a large hole in my bank balance and a system I didn't like. I decided that if I kept the NBL's I was probably going to have to go active (2 more 135's, new snaxo). I had also heard a rumour that one passive 500 was at least as good as a 6 pack, and the thought of fewer boxes appealed to me, so I got one up for a listen. I was gobsmacked at how the 500 kicked the NBL's into life. Huge urge, deathly quiet (you have to hear it to know what I am talking about), detailed, dynamic and warm to boot. Problem solved.

I decided that it would be lazy to just go for the 500 when, for the same money, the 552 could have an even more profound effect. I suppose it's also lazy to just try Naim but that's an act of faith that I am happy with. Anyway I got a 552 over. The idea was to try 552/135's vs 52/500 but under no circumstances should the 552 be allowed to mate with the 500. The conclusion was pretty obvious. I guess I have an idea of the "perfect sound" in much the same way that I have an idea of the "perfect woman". Not something that I want to try and rationalise or justify. It is what it is. With the NBL's the 52/500 got me very close to that sound. The 552/135's did not.

OK then. Done. "The 500 it is" I said to Chris, who agreed and went to start packing away the 552. Of course I couldn't resist the temptation, and what other opportunity would I have to listen to a 552/500 in my own home ?Despite further warnings and protestations the 552 was hooked up and (Tom - I am not going to use any words like "broken" or "sick") lets just say this. Without the 552 I am listening to what is by a country mile the best system I have ever heard, but not one that I am not particularly familiar with. Would I notice the difference or had I reached saturation point ? The answer was revealed about 1 note into the first track. To do justice in words to what the 552 does when partnered with a 500 (or I guess a 300) you would have to describe it's effect on every drum in the kit, every note on a piano, every string on a guitar. Easier to say that it just adds a startling level of reality that makes music without it seem artificial.

Chris left me with the 552/500 still in place. I tried (god knows I did) going back to the 52 but I needed something stronger. I was hooked big time.

So that's my sorry story. I went down to the shops for a loaf of bread and bought the shop. Regrets ? Not when the music is on. My name is Mark, and I am a Naimaholic.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Richie T:
... but you definately aren't going to audition a CDS3 are you Mark! ?? !


This guy is on a serious roll. He won't be able not to

Good luck to him

red

Tom,

You don't work for Naim at all ? Just a hunch ..

I bought the lot. Stuffed I will ever be able to shell out for 2 more 500's but judging by my last performance I don't think I wil risk the listen. I might have a wee go with a CDS3 though. Anyone know the best way to saw the barrel off of a shotgun ?

but I guess that my message is that passive NBL's appear to represent a major upgrade over active SBL's, and this from, like your good self, a devoted and died in the wool "active man"

Hey, exactly what I (also an activee man!) felt when swapped from 4*135s/SBLs to 2*135s/NBLs!

But I stopped (for now) at this level. Otherwise I might end up with CDS3/552/3*500/DL2s... Then I couldn't buy a violin, or an appartement in my life, even a single CD would be too much! (See also my thread "sad news")

- Jun

Hey Jun,

I am sure you have stopped at the right place. Don't contaminate your brain by experimenting with more potent equipment. Enjoy your system and your new Violin. I need a new guitar amp but I can't afford one now !

Mark.