New Naim DAC

Posted by: fixedwheel on 27 March 2009

Hi Folks

With the discussions starting after the Bristol show, the one question I have is what are you going to use it with?

Being new to Naim products I was initially unaware that Naim CD players do not have a digital out.

Having a look at manuals shows me that the HDX has digital out, piccies and specs of the NaimUniti shows it does not, and although the n-Vi does it isn't really targeted at a 2ch system that doesn't have a display. Smile

I use a Squeezebox 3 at the mo, the HDX wouldn't be on my list as the noise of the internal HDDs, although small, would annoy me.

Did anybody check whether the DAC has a digital out to go to a recorder? I still have a MiniDisc and CD-Recorder in my system.

Your comments on these queries would be appreciated.

Cheers

John
Posted on: 27 March 2009 by Guido Fawkes
The NaimUniti can use solid state storage - a USB stick.

I'm thinking of iPod-Touch/iTransport-NC for the Naim DAC to avoid hard disks, but something better may come up while waiting for the launch of the DAC.

ATB Rotf
Posted on: 27 March 2009 by fixedwheel
quote:
Originally posted by ROTF:
The NaimUniti can use solid state storage - a USB stick.



Hi Rotf

I used the NaimUniit more as an example of the lack of digital outs on existing Naim equipment, more than a potential purchase for myself.

I wasn't overly impressed with the sound of the NaimUniti at the Bristol show, whereas the SuperNait just grabbed you by the short and curlies til you said "That is fantastic!"

I wasn't even looking to change my hifi setup when I went to the show!

quote:

I'm thinking of iPod-Touch/iTransport-NC for the Naim DAC to avoid hard disks, but something better may come up while waiting for the launch of the DAC.


With the cost of solid state hard discs coming down rapidly, I think that may be the way to go. Looking at a local suppliers website this morning shows that 120Gb drives are available at just over £240, and 256Gb at under £470.

Let's face it, it is not running a huge database app, so the speed will be more than adequate.

Cheers

John
Posted on: 27 March 2009 by Guido Fawkes
Hi John

Not heard the NaimUniti yet, but keen to audition. Yours is the first negative utterance I've heard about this new device.

Agree with you about speed - the transport needs to be very quiet, preferably no moving parts and not have a switched mode power supply to inject garbage in to the mains or if it has then to be suitably isolated from the Naim rig. This is my theory, but haven't been able to hear it so can't be sure.

With just a solid state hard-disk: how would would you drive the system, assuming you don't want full blown computer audio, but just the minimum to play the music? I'm assuming the nDAC is just a DAC.

ATB Rotf
Posted on: 27 March 2009 by fixedwheel
quote:
Originally posted by ROTF:
Not heard the NaimUniti yet, but keen to audition. Yours is the first negative utterance I've heard about this new device.


Maybe I didn't put it across too well!

I don't think the NaimUnit is awful, it might have been very unfair to walk in straight from listening to the SuperNait!
quote:

With just a solid state hard-disk: how would would you drive the system, assuming you don't want full blown computer audio, but just the minimum to play the music? I'm assuming the nDAC is just a DAC.


I was thinking more along the lines of the next HDX having solid state drives, that would eliminate the HDD noise when playing, obviously ripping and direct CD playback will still need the transport running, but IMHO that defeats the main point of the HDX.

It really depends on where Naim see the(ir) market going. My thoughts are that it would be easier to offload the storage requirements as most people have other solutions.

Many people are starting to wake up to the fact that unless they start to do something about protecting their data, be that photos or music or home videos etc. the prospect of a hard drive failure in any one of their computers is terrifying.

Bear in mind that a PC hard drive spends 3-5years running at 7.200rpm with no maintenace and costs, at retail!, under £40.

And then people trust it to give back all the irreplacable memories of family photos etc.

If you are already putting in place disk storage on your personal network it makes sense, to me, to put your music on there as well. It is a lot easier to replace faulty drives, to expand storage capacity, and move the noise of hard drives away from the hifi.

The noise coming from a mates SkyHD box winds me up, it's fine when the TV is on, but annoying in silence.

My preferred solution would probably be a Network Music player, with a decent DAC, a few extra inputs, at least one digital output, wired and wireless network and modest inbuilt display. Pref in a 2xx sized case.

Put the ripping / storage capability in a box aimed at the NaimNet install market for people who want a solution from one source.

Sorry for the rant!

John
Posted on: 28 March 2009 by Jono 13
Chaps I am thinking deeply about a SNait to pair up with my AppleTV, connected via optical digital link.

It should address the issue of passing electrical noise from one box to another as there will be no direct path other than general mains noise.

Also as it is synced off the main iTunes library any system failure of the ATV would not be catastrophic, just a re-sync job. It's hard disk is very quiet to the point of no noise, and I say this as someone who is very aware of background hum.

I love the ability to control it from a Touch without switching on the TV and slave it to the PC to do multiroom replay, like now with The Prodigy and Invaders must die.

Jono
Posted on: 28 March 2009 by SC
I love the ATV, a joy to use, although there are a few quirks with scrolling through listings quickly, making the Touch a must-have....

However, there's one current bug in linking it into a serious HiFi set up for the future - NO 96/24 output....
Posted on: 28 March 2009 by gary1 (US)
quote:
Originally posted by fixedwheel:
Put the ripping / storage capability in a box aimed at the NaimNet install market for people who want a solution from one source.


While I ultimately think that Naim will develop a player that is better than the HDX and will include a separate box for the "computer" aspects, what your proposing above goes against the Naim philosophy.

In THEIR opinion, control of the ripping is essential to achieve the highest quality playback. I know there have been debates on this, but I'm going at it from Naim's viewpoint. While I ultimately see the development of this additional box, I don't think it will be aimed at the audience you mention above, but an integral part of the music solution.
Posted on: 28 March 2009 by fixedwheel
quote:
Originally posted by gary1 (US):
quote:
Originally posted by fixedwheel:
Put the ripping / storage capability in a box aimed at the NaimNet install market for people who want a solution from one source.


While I ultimately think that Naim will develop a player that is better than the HDX and will include a separate box for the "computer" aspects, what your proposing above goes against the Naim philosophy.

In THEIR opinion, control of the ripping is essential to achieve the highest quality playback. I know there have been debates on this, but I'm going at it from Naim's viewpoint. While I ultimately see the development of this additional box, I don't think it will be aimed at the audience you mention above, but an integral part of the music solution.


But they have already done it. The HDX can playback files from external storage such as a NAS box or Server. (Section 11 of the HDX ref guide)

What I want is basically a HDX without internal hard drives or a CD player. Too much to ask? Possibly.

Cheers

John
Posted on: 28 March 2009 by gone
I'm with Gary1 on this one. I think the attraction of the HDX is that Naim have 'built-in' their ripping and music knowledge, so you don't have to fart about with different ripping software settings, etc. I am playing with an HDX right now, and I like the all-in-one box solution (although I would like the ability to rip to NAS).
My jury is still out on the relationship between HDX and CD555, but I would hope that adding the DAC to the HDX would make that comparison more favourable.
What would be the killer, for me, is being able to power the DAC from the spare socket of the 555PS.
Now that would be nice
Posted on: 28 March 2009 by fixedwheel
quote:
Originally posted by Nero:
I am playing with an HDX right now, and I like the all-in-one box solution (although I would like the ability to rip to NAS).


So let me get this right, you are saying that the HDX can play back *from* a NAS box but *can't* rip to it?

So how does Naim expect the files to get there? Telepathy?

I think it is more likely that Naim expect and are pragmatic enough to see that people have multiple solutions.

Who are Naim going to target the DAC at?, as far as I can see the only current Naim product to feed it would be the HDX. If the projected price that I have seen mentioned (£2k) is correct I would expect the DAC in the HDX (£4.5k) to be its equal.

I'm not saying that the HDX is a bad product, or that it has no place. What I want is a complimentary product with the moving parts removed for at least three reasons,
(a) as unnecessary points of failure,
(b) sources of unwanted background noise.
(c) wasted expense (how often do you get the CD out of its box once you have ripped it?)

There are enough people on this forum already using MacBooks, AppleTVs, SqueezeBoxes, Davrys etc to show there is a market for the computer based audio devices.

Cheers

John
Posted on: 28 March 2009 by gone
AFAIK, the HDX cannot rip to NAS yet, but it is planned for updated firmware in the near future. As I don't have a NAS yet, it's not a big deal, but there are people out there that do, with music files from other sources (hi-res for example).
I agree that the internal hard drives are a worry from reliability and noise point of view.
We are all guessing when it comes to pricing of the DAC, but if it's to be a product with wide appeal, I would expect it to better the DAC in the HDX. I think that's a given, as those who heard it at Bristol (not me) were saying it improved the HDX's performance.
I would expect a reference HDX at some point, but designed to go with the DAC (so a lot of the redundancy you mention would disappear).
That way, I'm pretty sure the CD555 would be bettered - what say you to a three box solution - HD555 (ripper, controller), DAC, 555PS? The first two could be in slimline cases as per DAC prototype.

Total speculation of course, but hey

Cheers
John
Posted on: 28 March 2009 by gary1 (US)
Fixedwheel,

I think your missing an essential point. I know that everyone is asking for an HDX without the internal computer, but you still need the ripping mechism. You can say that there are other solutions as EAC, but ultimately Naim will want to retain the ability to rip with their own solution. I know that they feel that it is consistent and sounds better than other solutions. The ripping aspects are integral to the success of the product wheter in the box (HDX) or in an additional box (HDS?).

The DAC is aimed at those who want to play directly from thier computer or who want to use the dig out of the HDX to go to the DAC. At that point switch your PS to the HDX (XPS2/555PS).
Posted on: 28 March 2009 by Guido Fawkes
quote:
In THEIR opinion, control of the ripping is essential to achieve the highest quality playback.
Surely, ripping is just a temporary measure - probably unnecessary if you have a decent CD player - music is now becoming available as a downloadable file only in some format or other (we can't always choose if it is AIFF, WAV, FLAC. MP3 or ... we get what we're given) so what we need is something that'll play these music files. Enter the nDAC.

ATB Rotf
Posted on: 29 March 2009 by gary1 (US)
Rotf,

2 points:

I think ripping is important since most people with a substantial CD collection will not want to re-purchase their collections as downloads due to the cost.

The nDAC is just a D/A converter, it is not a music player. While the nDAC may sound good/great hooked directly up to a PC/Mac the limitation will still be the quality of the player in the computer device. In this respect Iwould not expect this combination to perform better than something like an HDX since it is a far better player than any of the "computers."

What would be interesting is if Naim could redesign their CDPs such that they had a dig out and an ethernet connection/processing in, kind of what you see with the Naim Uniti, which could be hooked up to an external DAC. Now you can stream, download and use your CDP and have no need for the ripping process.

That would be an interesting next generation overhaul of the Naim CDP line-up and would fit in nicely with the development of the nDAC.
Posted on: 29 March 2009 by fixedwheel
quote:
Originally posted by gary1 (US):
I think your missing an essential point.

I don't think so, I may not be explaining what I want well enough though.
quote:
I know that everyone is asking for an HDX without the internal computer,

So you also believe there is a market for one.
quote:

but you still need the ripping mechism.

Yep, but does it actually need to be in the player?
quote:

You can say that there are other solutions as EAC, but ultimately Naim will want to retain the ability to rip with their own solution.

As they demoed the DAC with a MacBook that point is moot.
quote:
I know that they feel that it is consistent and sounds better than other solutions.

Sorry, that is the bit I don't buy. A bit perfect rip is a bit perfect rip. The quality of the playback comes when you turn that digital file back to an analogue waveform. As long as the DAC isn't left waiting for incoming data then it is all down to the DAC
quote:

The ripping aspects are integral to the success of the product wheter in the box (HDX) or in an additional box (HDS?).

But at no point have I said there is no place for the HDX on the market.

What I am suggesting is an additional product.
quote:

The DAC is aimed at those who want to play directly from thier computer or who want to use the dig out of the HDX to go to the DAC. At that point switch your PS to the HDX (XPS2/555PS).


But I've already said that I don't want the noise from the mechanical hard drives in the HDX, so why would I want to put a full blown computer near my hifi?

Consider another possible use for such a device as a player for a second system.

Unless you think it would be more convenient to rip every CD on multiple HDXs around the house.

Cheers for now,

John
Posted on: 29 March 2009 by gary1 (US)
John,

I'm sorry, but I don't agree with some of your points. I understand what you are asking for which is a streamer like a Linn Klimax DS and you'll take care of the rest. I get it.

Regardless of your opinion about bit perfect rips being equivalent there is one step in the process that you are overlooking. When you are using the computer you are using the "music player" which is part of your software or an external one if you choose. This processing occurs before the D/A converter and in this respect that contained in a PC/Mac is different from that in an HDX. I'm not going to say which is better, you can decide. Some people from the show last month preferred the Mac to the hDX, others thought they were equal and others felt the HDX far superior. I can't comment as I haven't heard this, but as always they are differences of opinion and it boils down to what you hear.

There's more going on than just the bit perfect file to the DAC.
Posted on: 30 March 2009 by fixedwheel
quote:
Originally posted by gary1 (US):
John,

I'm sorry, but I don't agree with some of your points.


Fair enough.
quote:
I understand what you are asking for which is a streamer like a Linn Klimax DS and you'll take care of the rest. I get it.

I am afraid you don't get it! I am not asking for a streamer.

I said:-
quote:
Originally posted by fixedwheel:
What I want is basically a HDX without internal hard drives or a CD player.


That is different from a streaming device, a Squeezebox or Transporter relies on SqueezeCenter running on a PC, or a few NAS boxes such as some of the Netgear ReadyNAS range.

In the product that I am suggesting the only stuff that is not on the Naim player is the music files.

Let me take this a point at a time and see where we agree and disagree. Please note that in the following scenarios *no* computers are being used, and *no* music playback software (ie iTunes, SqueezeCenter, yada yada etc.) is in use.

1. The HDX rips CDs to its own hard discs.

2. The HDX can play back files from other storage locations.

3. Nero has said that a update to the software will allow the HDX to place (or move) files, that it has ripped, to an external storage location.

4. A HDX playing back a file, that it has ripped, will sound exactly the same whether that file is physically located on its own hard discs or located somewhere else on the network.

5. A second HDX in the house, playing back the file ripped by the first HDX and placed on the network will sound exactly the same as the same file played back by the first HDX

6. A diskless HDX (let's call it a XPB, no HD as it is diskless, PB for playback only) playing back a file, originally ripped by a HDX and placed on the network will sound exactly the same as a full HDX

Can you tell me which of those statements you disagree with?

quote:


Regardless of your opinion about bit perfect rips being equivalent there is one step in the process that you are overlooking. When you are using the computer you are using the "music player" which is part of your software or an external one if you choose.


But I wouldn't be using any "music player" software, that is the whole point of the product I want when I said I wanted a diskless, and mechanically silent, HDX!

Cheers

John
Posted on: 30 March 2009 by SC
I'm in agreement with you John.

Personally, I believe the HDX, sans internal discs and with some further software tweaks, but otherwise exactly as is, would be the perfect box, IMHO.

I just see the internal HD's as a weak spot. They are too small (even if larger capacity, they still are going to fill up over time), incur extra build cost and space, and who knows what real effect they are having on the analogue output.....If Naim want to control aspects of the HD, how about having them outboard - we could have Naim packaged HD's in a 1/2 box like a HiCap ?

Still having the CD tray for ripping and indeed for playing the odd CD I believe is hugely useful and attractive....

Steve.
Posted on: 30 March 2009 by fixedwheel
quote:
Originally posted by SC:
I'm in agreement with you John.

Cheers Steve
quote:

Personally, I believe the HDX, sans internal discs and with some further software tweaks, but otherwise exactly as is, would be the perfect box, IMHO.

Another thread, coming from the other direction, suggests a NaimUniti without amplifier or CD:- http://forums.naim-audio.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/48019385/m/1342939817
QUOTE]
I just see the internal HD's as a weak spot. They are too small (even if larger capacity, they still are going to fill up over time), incur extra build cost and space, and who knows what real effect they are having on the analogue output.....If Naim want to control aspects of the HD, how about having them outboard - we could have Naim packaged HD's in a 1/2 box like a HiCap ?
quote:

Exactly, I think Naim are going to give themselves a whole load of grief in the years to come when the HDDs start to fail. The change in capacity and interfaces could bring headaches of their own. It would annoy people that expect Naim products to be servicable for 15-20 years or more to find out suitable HDDs are no longer available.


Still having the CD tray for ripping and indeed for playing the odd CD I believe is hugely useful and attractive....
[/QUOTE]

When I got the Squeezebox I kept my very nice MF CD player as I thought it would be used. 3 months later I sold it as it didn't. If I am really in a hurry I'll just stick a disc in my CD-Recorder which fires out to my DAC

quote:
Originally posted by fixedwheel:
Put the ripping / storage capability in a box aimed at the NaimNet install market for people who want a solution from one source.


Actually, take a look at naimnet.com at the back panel and specs of a NS03 music server, looks very like a HDX without the PSU upgrade socket, but with a few extra outputs.

Cheers

John
Posted on: 30 March 2009 by fixedwheel
quote:
Originally posted by fixedwheel:
quote:
Originally posted by SC:
I'm in agreement with you John.

Cheers Steve
quote:

Personally, I believe the HDX, sans internal discs and with some further software tweaks, but otherwise exactly as is, would be the perfect box, IMHO.

Another thread, coming from the other direction, suggests a NaimUniti without amplifier or CD:- http://forums.naim-audio.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/48019385/m/1342939817
quote:

I just see the internal HD's as a weak spot. They are too small (even if larger capacity, they still are going to fill up over time), incur extra build cost and space, and who knows what real effect they are having on the analogue output.....If Naim want to control aspects of the HD, how about having them outboard - we could have Naim packaged HD's in a 1/2 box like a HiCap ?

Exactly, I think Naim are going to give themselves a whole load of grief in the years to come when the HDDs start to fail. The change in capacity and interfaces could bring headaches of their own. It would annoy people that expect Naim products to be servicable for 15-20 years or more to find out suitable HDDs are no longer available.
quote:


Still having the CD tray for ripping and indeed for playing the odd CD I believe is hugely useful and attractive....


When I got the Squeezebox I kept my very nice MF CD player as I thought it would be used. 3 months later I sold it as it didn't. If I am really in a hurry I'll just stick a disc in my CD-Recorder which fires out to my DAC

quote:
Originally posted by fixedwheel:
Put the ripping / storage capability in a box aimed at the NaimNet install market for people who want a solution from one source.


Actually, take a look at naimnet.com at the back panel and specs of a NS03 music server, looks very like a HDX without the PSU upgrade socket, but with a few extra outputs.

Cheers

John
Posted on: 30 March 2009 by PureHifi
quote:
Originally posted by SC:
I just see the internal HD's as a weak spot. They are too small (even if larger capacity, they still are going to fill up over time), incur extra build cost and space, and who knows what real effect they are having on the analogue output.....If Naim want to control aspects of the HD, how about having them outboard - we could have Naim packaged HD's in a 1/2 box like a HiCap ?
Steve.


Regardless of where the music is stored there is still a requirement for somewhere to store a computer operating system and associated software packages...i.e. Music ripper, Music Database tool, interface browser, etc...all that still needs to be onboard.

While that could be run from a solid state device I think the key point of the HDX and NS0X NaimNet range is that they are a one box solution that makes storing, finding and playing your music as easy as using a traditional CD player.

The fact that you can do so much more with it is a bonus...and thank goodness it is a device that can be software upgraded to do even more than it did when you first purchased it.

I supose this is a bit far removed from the original DAC query but when you think about it, the HDX is a great big DAC that turns your hard drive stored music into a high quality analogue output - which seems to be what most people want or desire an external DAC to do for them anyway..

The external HDD box has already been thought of in the NaimNet Reference Server NS04 - Transport box and separate HDD storage box. Although that project may be on the back burner as I can no longer find reference to it on the naimnet site ?
Posted on: 30 March 2009 by fixedwheel
quote:
Originally posted by PureHifi:
I supose this is a bit far removed from the original DAC query but when you think about it, the HDX is a great big DAC that turns your hard drive stored music into a high quality analogue output - which seems to be what most people want or desire an external DAC to do for them anyway.

Exactly. So the CD transport and internal HDDs are surplus to requirements in some applications. Hence wanting a discless HDX. I'm still claiming the XPB name, free use of which is available to Naim for long term loan of a sample. Big Grin

So what do use with a NS03 to produce the output for the additional rooms?

Cheers

John
Posted on: 30 March 2009 by Guido Fawkes
quote:
the HDX is a great big DAC


The HDX has too much going on for me - what I need is a DAC - I don't need anything that requires hard disks.

I can play my CDs on a CD player so my need for ripping is none.

What I have to do at the moment is convert downloaded files to WAV and burn them to CD to play them; the requirement is to have a way of playing these files without the need to burn CDs.

Surely music of the future will not be bought on CD, but as downloads. That is just the way it is. They'll also be in umpteen formats and somebody will have a vested interest in one over the other. So the DAC has be universal and able to play what comes its way.

What we don't need is a general purpose operating system - with no hard disks the need for the operating system to support hard disks is zero. With no need for ripping the need to run software for ripping is zero. So this operating software should be no more complex that it is in a CDX2 or similar. The simpler the better. Ideally Naim will write and own every bit of code on their players to make them 100% supportable (or at least have the complete source code to everything they run).

So download it on a computer and save it to a memory stick or similar - then stick in the player and listen to music. If you've bought the music and are registered with the distributor then if you lose the file you can download it again (or just keep a copy on the computer and a copy on the stick or a back-up on DVD-R Big Grin). To play in the car insert same stick in to player.

Not required by me: networking software, ripping software, music management software, hard disk maintenance software .... Windoze in any shape or form ....

Roll on the nDAC

ATB Rotf
Posted on: 30 March 2009 by fixedwheel
quote:
Originally posted by ROTF:
The HDX has too much going on for me - what I need is a DAC...


Pedant mode on:-
Actually a DAC on its own is useless (we need to give it a signal)
Pedant mode off:-


But I see your point, see below

quote:

I can play my CDs on a CD player so my need for ripping is none.

What I have to do at the moment is convert downloaded files to WAV and burn them to CD to play them; the requirement is to have a way of playing these files without the need to burn CDs.

Surely music of the future will not be bought on CD, but as downloads.



Something like the conversation comparing CDs and LPs 25 years ago. Funny that today I buy more new music on LP than CD. Luddite? Moi? Roll Eyes
quote:

That is just the way it is. They'll also be in umpteen formats and somebody will have a vested interest in one over the other. So the DAC has be universal and able to play what comes its way.


So a combined DAC and player, one that can access and playback files from multiple sources, whether they be USB sticks, NAS boxes, a PC in the study, poss direct from the internet (internet radio, what an oxymoron that is!)
A couple or three additional digital inputs to link in additional devices would be good too.

quote:

So this operating software should be no more complex that it is in a CDX2 or similar. The simpler the better.


Actually, it is going to have to deal with file management, even on just on a memory stick
quote:


So download it on a computer and save it to a memory stick or similar - then stick in the player and listen to music. If you've bought the music and are registered with the distributor then if you lose the file you can download it again

You reckon! Eek I think that they will take advantage of another chance to empty your wallet. You only have to look at Apple charging its customers to "upgrade" customers to 256kbps stuff
quote:

(or just keep a copy on the computer and a copy on the stick or a back-up on DVD-R Big Grin).

Or backed up on a NAS box with mirrored drives.
quote:

Roll on the nDAC


Roll on the XPB - a combined nDAC & Music Player

Cheers

John
Posted on: 30 March 2009 by js
The HDX can move ripped files to a NAS with network sharing enabled. You can then recover drive space on the HDX by deleteing those files if you need it. It's an extra step but not difficult once set up correctly. The HDX files can also be played on other devices.