New Naim DAC

quote:

Originally posted by js:
The HDX can move ripped files to a NAS with network sharing enabled. You can then recover drive space on the HDX by deleteing those files if you need it. It's an extra step but not difficult once set up correctly.

Great news, that is the bit that Nero was talking about, but was not aware it was available at the moment

quote:

The HDX files can also be played on other devices.

Now this is the bit that I want to know, Which other players? Is there a Naim one that doesn't have moving parts?

Cheers

John

Yes, but I don't want to rip anything. I just want a way to play files that are only available as downloads. I don't think the HDX is the machine for me. Plus I don't want a home network ("not more wires", Mrs Rotf) or to run a NAS; I live in a little cottage, not a data centre. I do know how to set all these things up because I've done such things as part of my job, but I just want to listen to some good old rock n roll - and it seems you can only get some of Basia Bulat's new tracks by downloading (at the moment they are free) - so what choice does a luddite like me have?

ATB Rotf

quote:

Originally posted by ROTF:
Yes, but I don't want to rip anything. I just want a way to play files that are only available as downloads.

So a solid state player with a USB socket so you can plug a USB memeory stick in?

You are going to have to get the downloaded files to it somehow, the choices would include:-
1. SneakerNet - a nickname for actually physically taking the stuff there.
2. Wireless
3. Wired
4. Burning to a CD, and use a CD player as you already do.
5. Drop the files onto an iPod and connect that up to the system.

quote:

I don't think the HDX is the machine for me. Plus I don't want a home network ("not more wires", Mrs Rotf) or to run a NAS; I live in a little cottage, not a data centre.

Most of us already have a home network, even if we don't realise it.
If you have an internet router rather than a USB modem for your broadband connection, you have a network.
If you have a wireless router, well you have a network.
If you have a BT HomeHub thingy, well you have a network.

quote:

I do know how to set all these things up because I've done such things as part of my job, but I just want to listen to some good old rock n roll - and it seems you can only get some of Basia Bulat's new tracks by downloading (at the moment they are free) - so what choice does a luddite like me have?

Depends on the quality you want, but as you are a Naim owner I think it is fair to assume you want better than the standard earbuds that came with an iPod.

A small NAS box such as the D-Link DNS (105 x 196 x 130 mm) plugged into your wireless router, with a pair of 500gb would work out at about half a PowerLine.

If you don't want a NAS, then you could just have your PC on while you are listening to the downloaded files.

TTFN

John

Hi John

I didn't explain the network part very well - I have a home office with a small network: Cisco SOHO 97 ADSL router, Juniper SSG5 Firewall/IPS, HP ProCurve Switch confiureds with two VLANs: one for my wireless hub (Apple Airport extreme) and the other for my work computers: laptop PC and PowerMac; my MacBook (currently booted in AmigaOS) runs from the wireless LAN. I don't want to extend any wiring from my home office to my lounge (major job) and other posters have convinced me wireless is not great for music: so I've not considered it.

My first venture into seriously playing downloads is likely to be a NaimUniti. Seems perfect for office listening: iRadio, spin a CD and play YouTube/MySpace through its DAC.

Later to play downloaded music files on my main system, I thinking iPod Touch/Wadia iTransport with NC PSU feeding nDAC. However by the time nDAC arrives; there may be another way (nPod?). We live in interesting times.

Thanks for the interesting replies.

Off now to play some music - think I'll use ye olde LP12

ATB Rotf

quote:

Originally posted by ROTF:
I didn't explain the network part very well

Obviously not, or I wouldn't have been caught trying to give LAN-101

quote:

I don't want to extend any wiring from my home office to my lounge (major job) and other posters have convinced me wireless is not great for music: so I've not considered it.

I've a slightly different config. My office is off of my lounge, I can see one of my speakers from my normal seating position, if I lean back in the chair I can see the other! Iuse a Squeezebox 3 playing FLACs, running wirelessly, and on random most of the time as background. I've only had drop outs when I had a faulty Access Point. Even when I shut down the SlimServer software the SB3 will play for a liitle while, so there is enough of a buffer to cover the wireless issue.

quote:

My first venture into seriously playing downloads is likely to be a NaimUniti. Seems perfect for office listening: iRadio, spin a CD and play YouTube/MySpace through its DAC.

Sounds like a great office system

quote:

Later to play downloaded music files on my main system, I thinking iPod Touch/Wadia iTransport with NC PSU feeding nDAC. However by the time nDAC arrives; there may be another way (nPod?).

Why not try the NaimUniti in the lounge, using the pre-amp out?

quote:

We live in interesting times.

Very much so.

quote:

Thanks for the interesting replies.

I'm very much enjoying the conversation as well

quote:

Off now to play some music - think I'll use ye olde LP12

I like my Michell when I want to really listen.

Cheers

John

Must be a DAC for me.

Why?

So I can listen to hi-res and redbook stuff I've ripped to my hard-drive or NAS. Perhaps I'll use a media player like mediamonkey, or perhaps I'll use my squeezebox .. or maybe there'll be a NAIM streamer .. who cares . it shouldn't make a differene.

So I can listen the sound from my Sky+ box

So I can buy a CD and listen to it as soon as I get it home (or it comes through the post) (or I take it off the front of the Gramophone) without ripping it - just stick it in my old player which I'll have connected to one of the DAC inputs.

So I can listen to a DVD

So I can listen to the Berlin Philharmonic Digital Concert Hall live ..

So I can listen to .. all the other digital streaming/broadcast things that are happening in increasing quality and quantity ..

And BTW, there is no way that a NAIM ripped CD is any more accurate than a dbPoweramp ripped CD verified through accuraterip.

quote:

Originally posted by likesmusic:
And BTW, there is no way that a NAIM ripped CD is any more accurate than a dbPoweramp ripped CD verified through accuraterip.

Ooooo, there's fighting talk...Prepare for INCOMING !

Collecting dust somewhere around here, I think I still have my vest and hard hat from Afghanistan, would you like to borrow...?

quote:

Originally posted by fixedwheel:

Why not try the NaimUniti in the lounge, using the pre-amp out?

That should, of course, read "line out" either by the RCAs or the Tape Loop.

I can readthe specs on the NaimUniti, but I can't see a manual or zoom the piccies enough to make the connections out.

Reading the specs suggests to me that my perfect unit may be a stripped NaimUniti, without the power amplification bits.

Actually the more I look at it, the more perfect it looks. Take the power supply and amplification out, put a standard line out to compliment the preamp out, or change the software so you can fix the output on the preamp out.

The CD player would be mostly superflous to me, but I can see it being of use to a lot of people.

TTFN

John

Hi,

Just thought I would post this, not sure if anyone here has used these, but they work very very well. Require no running of new network cables. Just plug them into a spare electric socket and cable up to your DS or router.

Easy

Cheers

John

http://www.devolo.com/co_EN_cs...dlan200aveasysk.html

Hi John

quote:

Originally posted by John Campbell:
Just thought I would post this, not sure if anyone here has used these, but they work very very well. Require no running of new network cables. Just plug them into a spare electric socket and cable up to your DS or router.

Easy

Quite a few people don't like the thought of injecting a load of noise into the mains, especially if you are going to run your delicate audio equipment on it!

An interesting discussion, that covers other stuff you might be interested in, as well as mains networking is at:-

http://forums.naim-audio.com/e...302900517#5302900517

(And yes, I have used stuff like these, and keep them in my armoury of tools )

Cheers,

John

Hi,

A very interesting point to note is that the Managing Director of the "other" audio supplier uses these in his top of the range system.

Now that says something does it not?

Cheers

John

John

quote:

Now that says something does it not?

Indeed it does - but what exactly is the question!

Jim

Hi John

quote:

Originally posted by John Campbell:
A very interesting point to note is that the Managing Director of the "other" audio supplier uses these in his top of the range system.

Now that says something does it not?

And from another one of your posts

quote:

Originally posted by John Campbell:
I currently have quite a good Linn pre and amp set up.

Problem is it sounds boring and lifeless. I have tried cables, interconnects and speaker cables plus most of the Russ Andrews power correction equipment. Nothing makes it sound any more interesting.

I enjoy music but in the last 12 months since getting the Linn 2250 I seldom play my hi fi because I find it as I said boring and lifeless.

Rather than all of the testing with the Russ Andrews bits, have you tried taking the HomePlug networking devices out and running a cable as a temp measure to rule out the possibility of these interfering?

I hadn't even given them a thought until I read a discussion on here in the last month.

And, no, I'm not trying to have a dig.

Cheers

John

Hi,

In answer to your questions.

If the MD of the "other place" thinks they are ok to use then they must have researched it and decided it made no difference to using a hard wired system.

I currently have it hard wired in, not using the plugs. All the Russ Andrews stuff is out as is all the fancy interconnects and speaker cables. It stills sounds boring. I could try and explain the issue but I doubt it would do any good.

The problem of it sounding boring is I think associated with the Linn / Shahinian set up. The 2250 sounds amazing with a set of Isobariks or Linn Kans!

I do have the Quad Valve amps to play with as well, and they do not sound boring, quite the reverse in fact, they are great. Just to hot to leave on a long time. Which is why I want to look at getting a Naim set up.

No problem in having a dig, I enjoy having new ideas suggested. After all if we did not question others would we ever make any progress?

Cheers

John

quote:

Originally posted by John Campbell:
If the MD of the "other place" thinks they are ok to use then they must have researched it and decided it made no difference to using a hard wired system.

Fair enough for him, I've just found the ref that I was looking for in the manual for the HDX, see http://www.naim-audio.com/down..._Reference_1_Eng.pdf Page E5 para 5.1.1

quote:

I currently have it hard wired in, not using the plugs.

Always a better option if you can, saves so much grief

quote:

All the Russ Andrews stuff is out as is all the fancy interconnects and speaker cables. It stills sounds boring. I could try and explain the issue but I doubt it would do any good.

Probably because I spend my life sorting computer probs for a living, I like to go back to a vanilla, working setup ASAP to try and isolate the offender!

quote:

I do have the Quad Valve amps to play with as well, and they do not sound boring, quite the reverse in fact, they are great. Just to hot to leave on a long time.

That's prob the reason I've never gone down the valve route, I work from home a lot, so the valves would be on and I'd be forever messing around wondering which were wearing out or not on top form!

quote:

Which is why I want to look at getting a Naim set up.

I've just got my first, what took me so long to discover Naim?

quote:

No problem in having a dig, I enjoy having new ideas suggested. After all if we did not question others would we ever make any progress?

Exactly, sometimes we need somebody else to point out other options, sometimes it can be obvious! but only *after* they have pointed it out.

Sorry about the delay in replying, been playing with my Stageline that turned up this morning!

Cheers

John

Hi,

Thanks for the interesting post. I would like to add a couple of points.

If you work in the computer industry you will know that data streams are sent and received with checksums. If this is the case and the digital streamer agrees with the check then it matters not if there was rubbish on the mains, it has got the data to process. It then is onto the DAC to change from digital to analogue. So interference will not matter as long as the data is correct, and in digital it can only be right or not there at all!

I think you underestimate the life cycle of a valve. You could sit in your house for 5 years and they still would not wear out. The point I am making is they get to hot, at least in my room because there is no air currents to take the heat away. I can keep it cool with a small fan, but that is not the point. Also the start up time is somewhat too long for when I just want to play and listen.

As for just getting Naim I had my first 250 in 1985 or so, cannot remember the exact date, might have been earlier. I then ended up with a Tri Amped system. So I am no stranger to Naim amps. What I am trying to find out does the latest versions of Naims sound the same as the older ones I used or are they just as boring as the rest of the tranny amps I have heard these days. Yes I have tried more than Linn.

Hope the stageline is working well. I was just trying the phono inputs on the new Quad valve pre amp, for a £60 add on they are quite good, no make that amazing for £60.

Cheers

John

Can you then tell me why you can easily hear the difference when you change the buffer size in playback programs or dig interfaces? I can EASILY dem this but I also know it shouldn't be so in dig theory.

Hi,

quote:

Can you then tell me why you can easily hear the difference when you change the buffer size in playback programs or dig interfaces? I can EASILY dem this but I also know it shouldn't be so in dig theory.

Well first thing is you have to say what equipment you are using.

That includes NAS and software, all hi fi and what set up you are using to stream it.

Cheers

John

quote:

Originally posted by John Campbell:
If you work in the computer industry you will know that data streams are sent and received with checksums. If this is the case and the digital streamer agrees with the check then it matters not if there was rubbish on the mains, it has got the data to process. It then is onto the DAC to change from digital to analogue. So interference will not matter as long as the data is correct, and in digital it can only be right or not there at all!

Totally agree with you on the digital / streaming side of things. I seem to have been branded a heretic earlier in this thread by stating that IMHO a bit perfect rip is a bit perfect rip, no matter what was used to rip it.

My prob with the HomePlug devices is you are intentionally polluting the mains supply with extra noise (the data) which affects the power supplies for the hifi bits.

Thinking of all the trouble people go to with dedicated spurs, PowerLines etc it seems a waste to then put noise onto the mains.

quote:

I think you underestimate the life cycle of a valve.

More than likely, my only real experience of valves is a friends Leak Stereo 20

quote:

As for just getting Naim I had my first 250 in 1985 or so, cannot remember the exact date, might have been earlier. I then ended up with a Tri Amped system. So I am no stranger to Naim amps. What I am trying to find out does the latest versions of Naims sound the same as the older ones I used or are they just as boring as the rest of the tranny amps I have heard these days. Yes I have tried more than Linn.

I can't comment on the older stuff, as I have no experience of it. And in truth the only real experience I have had of a well setup Naim system is prob in the dem room of Cymbiosis the day I auditioned, and bought, the 2nd hand 202 pre amp that I have. All I can says is that it is doing it for me. The TV has only gone on for the morning news.

quote:

Hope the stageline is working well.

Definitely enjoying it, 5th album is on already this morning, my old phono stage should be up for auction later. Gotta start the NAPSC/FlatCap2X fund going!

Cheers

John

Jeez...with all the cutting and pasting and use of quotes this thread is close to unreadable IMO.

Jim

Hi,

Just wanted to say I had a long conversation with a networking specialist today and also someone who enjoys his very high end HiFi.

As I posted earlier the Digital Streamer receives its information and is bit perfect, no matter what rubbish is on the mains. if it drops packets, it just will not play.

I agree with the possibility of the plugs injecting main rubbish into the other parts of the HiFi.

My friend and I also talked about this being a problem with these plugs. He suggested that the wired system would put as much rubbish into the system this being the reason. When using wired systems you also need a router and a switch. As these in general use a power supply that costs a few pence he suggested the same or more rubbish will be injected into the mains and also into the cat5 cable connected to them.

The issue I think is to have a HiFi that is able to reject such interference and as far as I know this is what is built into these Digital Streamers in their power supply systems.

I will stand corrected on any of these but his logial reasoning behind this argument does for me carry some weight.

Cheers

John

quote:

then it matters not if there was rubbish on the mains, it has got the data to process. It then is onto the DAC to change from digital to analogue. So interference will not matter as long as the data is correct, and in digital it can only be right or not there at all!

"Bit perfect" is only part of it, timing (including packet delay and variable buffer lengths induced by decoding processes) as well as power supply noise (in- and out-of-band) do affect performance, just as they do on network connections–just ask the guys who actually design Ethernet transceiver ICs for a living.

Pardon my bluntness, but I tend to be overly dismissive of those who dismiss technical considerations out of hand, as irrelevant–especially as much of the high-end audio industry spends its time sorting out that last 1% of performance (or 0.1%, or...) within an area that might be considered far under the threshold of "function" in other disciplines.

Often this occurs by thinking outside of the box, and taking everything into consideration.

quote:

Originally posted by David Dever:

"Bit perfect" is only part of it, timing (including packet delay and variable buffer lengths induced by decoding processes)

With a networked streaming device packet delay will have no effect because the transfer of data over a network is not time critical. Most devices will request more data once there is enough room in a buffer, therefore the sending of data is asynchronous to the process of decoding and converting the data. There should also be a buffer between the decoding stage and the data being clocked into the DAC or digital out so as long as this buffer is kept fed this is the only time critical section in the digital chain.

quote:

Originally posted by matt303:

With a networked streaming device packet delay will have no effect because the transfer of data over a network is not time critical.

Which is why I keep asking for a discless HDX instead of just a DAC.

And, IMHO, what makes a netork player beter than a stand alone CD player, the timing issues of getting that data off of the cd is eliminated.

Cheers

John

quote:

With a networked streaming device packet delay will have no effect because the transfer of data over a network is not time critical. Most devices will request more data once there is enough room in a buffer, therefore the sending of data is asynchronous to the process of decoding and converting the data.

Packet delay is critical if you are trying to get audio to more than one place simultaneously (without rendered differences in time between locations), or if you wish to have it synchronized with a separate video stream.

However–if you are dealing with a single zone renderer, though absolute time may become less of an issue, you still must be careful not to over- or underflow the buffer.