What about Wagner?
Posted by: mikeeschman on 06 January 2010
Wagner is a composer I loved in youth, but now find bloated and congested beyond reason.
Anyone here still in love with Wagner? In a year, how much time do you spend listening to his music? What do you recommend?
Anyone here still in love with Wagner? In a year, how much time do you spend listening to his music? What do you recommend?
Posted on: 06 January 2010 by graham55
Yes.
Lots.
Rheingold (Solti). Tristan (Kleiber). Meistersinger (Kubelik).
Lots.
Rheingold (Solti). Tristan (Kleiber). Meistersinger (Kubelik).
Posted on: 06 January 2010 by paulr0414
Mike
I also find it harder to enjoy wagner these days and rarely play a complete opera.
Isn't there a saying about composers and ages?
Happy new year, p
I also find it harder to enjoy wagner these days and rarely play a complete opera.
Isn't there a saying about composers and ages?
Happy new year, p
Posted on: 06 January 2010 by MilesSmiles
Wagner still amazes me every time I listen to him, musical composition and lyriks are a perfect match. I only listen to Wagner in German and the exact choice of words underlines the dramatic emotions of the composition that touches me in a way no as composer can.
The Ring is a stroke of genius, love both the Karajan and Solti cycle - any other recommendations? Boehm?
The Ring is a stroke of genius, love both the Karajan and Solti cycle - any other recommendations? Boehm?
Posted on: 06 January 2010 by u5227470736789439
Posted on: 06 January 2010 by paulr0414
I have both the Karajan and Solti. Furtwangler is also very good from memory.
Posted on: 06 January 2010 by mikeeschman
quote:Originally posted by GFFJ:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHwU9Qs0jh0
Saves four evenings in the Theatre at least!
Good to see your sense of humor, George :-)
Posted on: 06 January 2010 by MilesSmiles
quote:Originally posted by GFFJ:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHwU9Qs0jh0
Saves four evenings in the Theatre at least!
Nice clip.
Posted on: 07 January 2010 by Manni
quote:Originally posted by GFFJ:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHwU9Qs0jh0
Saves four evenings in the Theatre at least!
Very funny, George. For those, who want to listen to Wagner a few minutes longer, this may be fine:
Walküre
Best wishes
Manfred
Posted on: 07 January 2010 by BigH47
I'm not sure who said it:-
"Ah German Opera, like war too loud and too long!"
"Ah German Opera, like war too loud and too long!"
Posted on: 07 January 2010 by Nathaniel
quote:Anyone here still in love with Wagner?
Never loved the man, but do love some of his music.
quote:In a year, how much time do you spend listening to his music?
On average, I'd guesstimate an opera per fortnight or month.
quote:What do you recommend?
Tristan und Isolde--Historically, über-influential. While, like most revolutions, it's impossible to attribute all the credit to one man (Wagner, too, has been influenced in his development), what does seem clear (from my limited knowledge) is the way Wagner takes a new musical language and crafts something beautiful from it.
But stuff the context, I like to appreciate works in isolation. And I love this opera.
Apologies to aficionados to the glibness that follows.
It's a four hour metaphor of sexual longing and the quest for satisfaction.
The prelude instantly establishes the 'longing', invoked by employing an ingenious music device (often called 'harmonic suspension'), and is compositionally famous.
The rest of act 1 is a bit of a Wagner shout-athon, with a couple of nice passages to keep you going.
Act 2 starts off in shouty-mode, but once the two would-be lovers settle down, the magic starts again: from O sink' hernieder, Nacht der Liebe and onwards for the next 20+min you experience one of the most beautiful passages in opera (I particularly love the orchestral swelling--excuse the sexual innuendo, but it's very difficult to avoid with this opera--on the two occasions when Brangäne calls out).
Then the 'plot' gets in the way: Tristan gets stabbed, and everyone starts shouting again.
Act 3 is a dark brood-athon, dominated by the male voices of Kurwenal and a dying Tristan, but it's quite powerful. And, of course, it's capped by the gobsmackingly gorgeous Liebestod, or 'love-death' (aka Verklärung, or 'coming to clarity'): the orchestra crests and dives, entwined with the female voice in orgasmic release and resolution.
Then she, too, dies.
Recordings:
I'm familiar with the following recordings:
Suthaus, Flagstad, Furtwangler, 1952
Windgassen, Nilsson, Böhm, 1966
Vickers, Dernesch, von Karajan, 1972
Kollo, Price, Kleiber, 1981
and would, on net, recommend the Böhm as the best compromise on singers, conducting and recording quality. If you take out recording quality, then I'd go with Furtwangler. Yet Vickers is my favourite Tristan. And Price sings the best Liebestod.
(I've always fancied, but never heard the Vickers, Nilsson, Böhm, Orange 1973 recording)
If you're coming from Debussy, then you might be interested to hear Parsifal and compare it to Debussy's Pelléas et Mélisande--the similarities are obvious, yet the (substantial) differences interesting. I've never likes Parsifal much, though--the music is lovely, and it's a lot less shouty than Wagner's previous operas, but it leaves me cold. But I do enjoy Pelléas.
Posted on: 07 January 2010 by mudwolf
I'm still having first experiences with Wagner. My first negative one was T&I Hockney's set at LA Opera fantastic, but ready to leave after 1st act. Second act, really beautiful, wondering how I'll make it thru the end. 3rd laying on a rock dying wanting to see his lover I literally was in physical pain sitting in the seat that long.
LA Opera did others like Lowenghrin and Flying Dutchmen I liked but dayam long.
We'll have the last of the Ring in a couple months staged by Freir. I've enjoyed it but my opera friend hates it so it's tough to separate that. I posted on that a few months back with some pics.
The most ecstatic staging/music I have ever experienced was the Tristan Project with Salonen conducting the LA Phil at Disney Hal with Bill Viola videos. By the end of each act I was blown away, tho long periods closing my eyes so I wasn't distracted from the music feeling my hormones race and climax in my brain and heart. And it was only $50 for the night.
I doubt I'll ever buy a CD because I can't focus that long at home. Most of my operas sit on a shelf and only pull them down when the classical station goes on pledge break.
LA Opera did others like Lowenghrin and Flying Dutchmen I liked but dayam long.
We'll have the last of the Ring in a couple months staged by Freir. I've enjoyed it but my opera friend hates it so it's tough to separate that. I posted on that a few months back with some pics.
The most ecstatic staging/music I have ever experienced was the Tristan Project with Salonen conducting the LA Phil at Disney Hal with Bill Viola videos. By the end of each act I was blown away, tho long periods closing my eyes so I wasn't distracted from the music feeling my hormones race and climax in my brain and heart. And it was only $50 for the night.
I doubt I'll ever buy a CD because I can't focus that long at home. Most of my operas sit on a shelf and only pull them down when the classical station goes on pledge break.
Posted on: 08 January 2010 by mikeeschman
Nathaniel,
I started this thread as kind of a smart ass rebuke along the lines of "who actually listens to Wagner?"
The throughness and generosity of your response has shamed me into digging out all my Wagner LPs. That would include a Boulez Ring Cycle, and a full set of the orchestral suites from operas by Stokowski and London.
I haven't listened to them since the 90s, and will try to cool my heels until I have given Wagner another chance.
Still, not many seem interested in Wagner. A Bach thread typically draws thousands of readers, not so for Wagner.
I started this thread as kind of a smart ass rebuke along the lines of "who actually listens to Wagner?"
The throughness and generosity of your response has shamed me into digging out all my Wagner LPs. That would include a Boulez Ring Cycle, and a full set of the orchestral suites from operas by Stokowski and London.
I haven't listened to them since the 90s, and will try to cool my heels until I have given Wagner another chance.
Still, not many seem interested in Wagner. A Bach thread typically draws thousands of readers, not so for Wagner.
Posted on: 08 January 2010 by Joe Bibb
quote:Originally posted by Nathaniel:quote:Anyone here still in love with Wagner?
Never loved the man, but do love some of his music.quote:In a year, how much time do you spend listening to his music?
On average, I'd guesstimate an opera per fortnight or month.quote:What do you recommend?
Tristan und Isolde--Historically, über-influential. While, like most revolutions, it's impossible to attribute all the credit to one man (Wagner, too, has been influenced in his development), what does seem clear (from my limited knowledge) is the way Wagner takes a new musical language and crafts something beautiful from it.
But stuff the context, I like to appreciate works in isolation. And I love this opera.
Apologies to aficionados to the glibness that follows.
It's a four hour metaphor of sexual longing and the quest for satisfaction.
The prelude instantly establishes the 'longing', invoked by employing an ingenious music device (often called 'harmonic suspension'), and is compositionally famous.
The rest of act 1 is a bit of a Wagner shout-athon, with a couple of nice passages to keep you going.
Act 2 starts off in shouty-mode, but once the two would-be lovers settle down, the magic starts again: from O sink' hernieder, Nacht der Liebe and onwards for the next 20+min you experience one of the most beautiful passages in opera (I particularly love the orchestral swelling--excuse the sexual innuendo, but it's very difficult to avoid with this opera--on the two occasions when Brangäne calls out).
Then the 'plot' gets in the way: Tristan gets stabbed, and everyone starts shouting again.
Act 3 is a dark brood-athon, dominated by the male voices of Kurwenal and a dying Tristan, but it's quite powerful. And, of course, it's capped by the gobsmackingly gorgeous Liebestod, or 'love-death' (aka Verklärung, or 'coming to clarity'): the orchestra crests and dives, entwined with the female voice in orgasmic release and resolution.
Then she, too, dies.
Recordings:
I'm familiar with the following recordings:
Suthaus, Flagstad, Furtwangler, 1952
Windgassen, Nilsson, Böhm, 1966
Vickers, Dernesch, von Karajan, 1972
Kollo, Price, Kleiber, 1981
and would, on net, recommend the Böhm as the best compromise on singers, conducting and recording quality. If you take out recording quality, then I'd go with Furtwangler. Yet Vickers is my favourite Tristan. And Price sings the best Liebestod.
(I've always fancied, but never heard the Vickers, Nilsson, Böhm, Orange 1973 recording)
If you're coming from Debussy, then you might be interested to hear Parsifal and compare it to Debussy's Pelléas et Mélisande--the similarities are obvious, yet the (substantial) differences interesting. I've never likes Parsifal much, though--the music is lovely, and it's a lot less shouty than Wagner's previous operas, but it leaves me cold. But I do enjoy Pelléas.
Great post. For those reasons, a highlights disc comes into it's own with Tristan IMO. There is music of extraordinary beauty but I wouldn't inflict the whole opera on anyone.
Apologies to the Wagner cognoscenti.
Joe
Posted on: 08 January 2010 by graham55
Joe, are you sure that you know what you're talking about here?
Sorry, but if you don't hear the whole opera, you've missed the point. There is no bad, or boring, music in Tristan und Isolde, although some conductors make it so.
Kleiber's recording (IMO) touches things that other conductors don't think about!
G
Sorry, but if you don't hear the whole opera, you've missed the point. There is no bad, or boring, music in Tristan und Isolde, although some conductors make it so.
Kleiber's recording (IMO) touches things that other conductors don't think about!
G
Posted on: 08 January 2010 by Joe Bibb
quote:Originally posted by graham55:
Joe, are you sure that you know what you're talking about here?
Sorry, but if you don't hear the whole opera, you've missed the point. There is no bad, or boring, music in Tristan und Isolde, although some conductors make it so.
Kleiber's recording (IMO) touches things that other conductors don't think about!
G
Sorry Graham, there is no 'right' or 'wrong' here. I know the whole opera well enough. I don't have to listen to it all.
Joe
Posted on: 08 January 2010 by graham55
OK, Joe, that's a valid point of view.
But, if you were to buy Carlos Kleiber's recording of Tristan, you sure as hell wouldn't want to switch off at any point!
G
But, if you were to buy Carlos Kleiber's recording of Tristan, you sure as hell wouldn't want to switch off at any point!
G
Posted on: 08 January 2010 by Joe Bibb
quote:Originally posted by graham55:
OK, Joe, that's a valid point of view.
But, if you were to buy Carlos Kleiber's recording of Tristan, you sure as hell wouldn't want to switch off at any point!
G
Hi Graham,
You have piqued my interest enough to source it. I toyed with going to see Tristan at Glyndebourne last year, but having SHMBO to consider, I decided on L'elisir d'amore - no complaints it was superb.
I am an admirer of Kleiber and have both his electrifying Beethoven 5 and a slightly eccentrically paced (at times), but equally enjoyable Brahams 4.
Joe
Posted on: 09 January 2010 by mikeeschman
Last night I pulled down a Stokowski conducts Wagner LP with the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra on RCA Red Seal.
The disk has the Rienzi Overture, the Magic Fire music, Prelude and Liebestod from Tristan and Isolde, Die Meistersinger Dance of the Apprentices and the Entrance of the Meistersinger.
The orchestra is in good form, and Stokowski's reading seems well balanced.
Today I'm going to give the Bohm Rhinegold a listen.
The disk has the Rienzi Overture, the Magic Fire music, Prelude and Liebestod from Tristan and Isolde, Die Meistersinger Dance of the Apprentices and the Entrance of the Meistersinger.
The orchestra is in good form, and Stokowski's reading seems well balanced.
Today I'm going to give the Bohm Rhinegold a listen.
Posted on: 09 January 2010 by MilesSmiles
quote:Originally posted by mikeeschman:
Today I'm going to give the Bohm Rhinegold a listen.
Let me know what you think, I'm playing with the thought of getting the Boehm recordings next.
Posted on: 09 January 2010 by mikeeschman
quote:Originally posted by MilesSmiles:quote:Originally posted by mikeeschman:
Today I'm going to give the Bohm Rhinegold a listen.
Let me know what you think, I'm playing with the thought of getting the Boehm recordings next.
Sorry MilesSmiles, I have to disqualify myself as a reference on anything Wagner. My listening this weekend has confirmed my dislike of all things Wagner.
I hate hearing singers bellow, and orchestra play so loud, all the beauty is drained from their sound.
It seems so crude, like boiled potatoes and cabbage.
Posted on: 09 January 2010 by MilesSmiles
quote:Originally posted by mikeeschman:
It seems so crude, like boiled potatoes and cabbage.
Ouch.
Posted on: 09 January 2010 by graham55
quote:Originally posted by mikeeschman:quote:Originally posted by MilesSmiles:quote:Originally posted by mikeeschman:
Today I'm going to give the Bohm Rhinegold a listen.
Let me know what you think, I'm playing with the thought of getting the Boehm recordings next.
Sorry MilesSmiles, I have to disqualify myself as a reference on anything Wagner. My listening this weekend has confirmed my dislike of all things Wagner.
I hate hearing singers bellow, and orchestra play so loud, all the beauty is drained from their sound.
It seems so crude, like boiled potatoes and cabbage.
You've been listening to the wrong things, Mike.
I suggested above Solti's Rheingold, Carlos Kleiber's Tristan and Kubelik's Meistersinger.
If you can only manage one, go for Kleiber's Tristan. Just possibly the best opera recording ever made!
G
Posted on: 09 January 2010 by mikeeschman
graham55, I think my time is better spent elsewhere than Wagner.
Posted on: 09 January 2010 by graham55
Your loss, Mike!
There is certainly no "bellowing" in any of the sets that I recommended to you.
But you may want a scapegoat!
G
There is certainly no "bellowing" in any of the sets that I recommended to you.
But you may want a scapegoat!
G
Posted on: 09 January 2010 by mikeeschman
quote:Originally posted by graham55:
But you may want a scapegoat!
G
It's not like that at all. This music Wagner wrote, he didn't write it for me. It's not how life sounds to me. It's for someone else.