Where does the'high end' begin?

Nic P

Peter

Therefore CD5/Nait/Intro can be considered High-End.

Andrew

Andrew Randle
Currently in the "Linn Binn"

Personally, I do not subscribe to definitions such as "high end" which often refer to price rather than quality - however that might be defined.

cheers

Nigel

An LP12 fronting very modest electronics and speakers can spank a far more costly CD player though more costly electronics and speakers on both sonics and musical criteria.

To me, Hi-End also is distinct (somewhat) from "Mid-Fi" - with the term Hi-End best reserved for systems that display refinement. The 5-series is very very good, but lacks the refinement of true "Hi-End" kit. I'm not sure any but the very very best CD players hit - or come close to - this mark.

Matters are more confused when we consider kit other than Naim. There's loads of expensive American kit that *is* refined - but screws up the musical message. Hum...

- Greg

Insert Witty Signature Line Here

i like this definition a lot.

and i agree that high end doesnt necessarily deliver music at home. fortunately naim high end does, unless its not installed properly, or there is something wrong.

many thanks

enjoy

ken

'High End' has no foundations and so is a purely subjective construct. As such it means different things to different people at different times - and through discourse (debate) we constantly redefine and reaffirm our understandings of it.

My Definintion

I can't define 'high end' +vely. To me it is not about products that give perfect sound forever. Instead I think the high end starts when the consumer accepts that (s)he is buying a compromised product. I'll explaine.

If we look to the mass-market low-mid sector we see that generally ‘audiophiles’ (accepting its connotations) do not populate it. Instead, stereotypically, it is made of customers who want to buy into the belief that nobody need spend more that £750-1000 on their hi-fi. They expect perfection; (near) full range frequency response; and nothing (superficially) noticeably absent in their sound quality.

On the other hand, one begins to move into the high end arena when the consumer is prepared to accept compromises against their mental model of perfection. They will buy, for example, the £1000 stand-mount speaker instead of the companies full range model from further down the company hierarchy... They are better willing to accept the ruff with the smooth, trade offs, for example, between frequency response and detail.

I also generally conceive the high-end to be less mass market orientated, I guess necessitated by the smaller market presented. In this fashion high end would equate to a tailored suit, or a hand built car or children’s teddy bear. So in Britain one might think of manufacturers who started out as a cottage industry.

However this needs qualification. In the globalised world, high end manufacturers are increasingly better able to mass-produce products as long as they can increase their market through export. Also, it would appear that the US can sustain mass production of high end equipment as a result of its huge population advantage over the UK. But I still harbour under the romantic conception that high end products are a labour of love, removed from the corporate de-personalised mass produced manufacturing process. I guess though that this is increasingly out-moded. And I’m only 21!

I’m interested in reading others' ideas, and hope that I haven't bored you all.

Dave

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I’m interested in reading others' ideas, and hope that I haven't bored you all.

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David, you certainly didn't bore me - I was asleep already

David S

Pleased you are enjoying the debate! The interesting thing for me is that most of us have read/heard/said the words 'high end' so many times without really defining what we mean.

I've been reflecting on what you've all said and would like to offer a definition for debate:

"High end hi-fi is music reproducing equipment which is generally accepted to reach the state of the art"

Jonathan

IMHO High End is hi fi built without an eye on the final price, only on music, type of sound or whatever hifi criteria the manufacturer chooses. I have heard some manufacturers state exactly this for their reference gear including Naim.

The great thing about good flat earth systems is that there's little to wonder about, you can get on with enjoying the music be it a CD3/Nait2/Kytes system, or a modern active or 500 powered system. The music gets better, but you are happily travelling north on "Musicsystem Motorway" rather than paddling around the "diahhrea drive" orbital toward the next upgrading traffic jam, as you aspire to more high end round earth kit.

If you must delinate between one flat earth system and another, its probably easier to use "better".

Just my .002 south pacific peso's worth.

Rico - SM/Mullet Audio

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Originally posted by Rico:
The High End is a round earth myth.

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Rico,

I like it. I tend to think of high-end as that really expensive stuff over there that I'm not really interested in (Krell, etc).

I know that Richard Lord of REL has been told that his top-of-the-line Studio subwoofer is almost the only UK product perceived over in the States as high-end.

Suspect the 552 & 500 probably also fit the bill.

cheers, Martin

i like "not designed to a price" because if you trust the manufacturer (and we all largely trust naim, dont we??) and they say so about their product, then this is more definitive that some of the more subjective concepts that we have (rightly perhaps) put fwd.

i believe NAC52 was designed as a no compromise. so was NAP500. there may be others. who cares about Krell?

just a "thought"... perhaps mischievous...

enjoy

ken

I now attend live concerts to listen for that space. The performance is actually secondary.

Paul

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I believe that the term refers to the ability of a hifi component/system to reproduce the physical space between the instruments and to specifically locate that space within the soundstage.

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A properly setup Naim system shouldn't exhibit this sleight of hand, of course.

a. it fails to reproduce an artifically enhanced soundstage with clearly delineated spaces between the instruments (I am referring to orchestral seating) . All "true" audiophiles are only concerned with the static qualities of the reproduction of the physical space in which the recording took place. Performance and even the music is unimportant when compared to soundstage.

b. One cannot tell with Naim gear the type of material used to construct the wall behind the the orchestra (from the reflected soundwave). This is the true indicator of "High End" gear and this characteristic is often discussed at length by audiophiles.

c. It is impossible (with Naim) to tell the age and type of strings used by the third violinist in the fourth row, five over from the left or the type of chair (metal/wood) that he/she is seated upon, nor if the bassoonist is wearing any clothes.

d. Naim gear (before the 500) was far too inexpensive to be taken seriously by any audiophile.

e. Naim amps (before the 500) were ridiculously small-sized (size matters!), underpowered, do not have large heatsink fins nor can be used as coffee tables or freighter anchors like real "High End" amps. A "High End" amp should be as big as a compact car and cost 10x as much. (Exceptions made for single-ended tube amps as long as the transformer is hand-wound with pure silver wire and costs over $100,000 USD.)

f. The Clincher. You cannot use, with Naim amps, speaker wire the size of a fire hose and costing more than your average car for a 6 foot length.

Paul

"High-End audio is about passion - passion for music and how well it is reproduced. High -end audio is the quest to re-create in the listener's home the musical message of the composer or performer with the maximum realism, emotion and intensity....A common misperception among the hi-fi consuming public is that high-end audio means high priced audio...First, High-end audio refers to the performance and not the price...Second, High-end audio is about communicating the musical experience...Third anyone who likes music can immediately appreciate the value of high quality music reproduction...High-end audio isn't about equipment; it's about music."

Mr Harley is the technical editer of Fi and writes for Sterophile as well, clearly an enemy of the flat earth, yet this is to me easily the best definition of what constitutes high-end. To him a USD1,200 NAD/PSB system is as high-end as a USD120,000 Apogee/Sonic Frontiers/Boulder/Accuphase. Why because it communicates, what is to him, the essence of musical reproduction. Obviously as a round earther this is going to differ from what we PR&T people consider essential, but doesn't take away from his central premise. Equally he states that just because it's expensive doesn't make it high end.

Giles

Regards,Rob.