Kan-alike poll
Posted by: Tony L on 11 April 2001
quote:
If the woofer is close to the floor level, the reflection off the floor will be pretty much 180 degrees out of phase with the incident wave(s) and cause destructive interference (cancellation). Theoretically resulting in less bass. Of course actually placing the cabinet on the floor can seemingly increase bass by using the floor as a nodal source resulting in 'doubling'.
Yes, you'll get cancellation at the wavelength equal to the distance between the woofer and floor, otherwise at other frequencies you get some gain.
quote:
It occurred to me that there are probably a few speaker manufacturers that look in here from time to time (I believe Naim themselves make speakers from time to time), so it might be worth doing some market research
Tony,
When Joel B. was here last weekend I was more than a bit interested in picking his brain about my Sorcerers. I'm paraphrasing him and will no doubt get something wrong but with those caveats, here goes...
Joel thinks your Mark II Kans are faster than my Sorcerers. If speed is your thing, Kans may very well be it at all but the most astronomical prices.
He said that Sorcerers, although a bit less responsive, seem to edge out Kans in clarity, precision, lack of tonal colouration, and bass extension. So, which speaker is better?
Both designs involve compromises. Linn went with the "most musical damn everything else approach." Royd went with the "very musical with more consideration of hi-fi things" approach (but still staying clear of the "wax museum" imaging and soundstaging crapola.
I asked Joel if he thought Kans were the way to go for me. After a long pause his answer was that he's really only liked your pair, so maybe the latest MkIIs with the Ku-stone bracing are the way to go. He was also pretty sure that Kans wouldn't work in my room, it being, apparently, bigger than yours.
Have you considered other options? A 82 in your system would likely transform it beyond recognition. Joel said that my 102 clearly is the bottleneck in my system, unless I'm prepared to spend a lot more on my table and CD player (a Prefix + Hi-Cap for the p9 and CDX + XPS in place of the CD2). He also thought I should stick with the Sorcerers unless I'm prepared to spend Credo- or SBL-level money.
This is the real kicker: It's virtually impossible to find a speaker that's better in all ways than Kans (or Sorcerers) unless you pay a fortune. Inevitably, you gain something in one area (say bass depth) and loose in another (bass speed). Or you gain better impact at the expense of overhang.
I think any Kan-like or Kan-klone speaker would simply offer a different set of compromises from the original beasts, Mk I or II. If you want better Kans, get a better table, CD player, preamp, supply or power amp.
Joe
cheers, Martin
quote:
I believe thats the IBL! (though I have never heard a pair).
Neither have I, but you may well be right if others reports are anything to go by. I almost had a chance of a pair of these at the liquidation auction I visited for a major southern Hi-Fi dealer years ago, but my local dealer outbid me!
As commented on in the old forum, I'm certain an IBL with better aesthetics would sell, although as JV commented an IBL-alike is likely to cost in excess of £1000, but then a Kan is likely to also (as a rule of thumb prices double every ten years).
Andy.
Andrew L. Weekes
alweekes@audiophile.com
Andrew,
IMHO the design & scale of the IBL is just about perfect. I have lived with Kans, SBL's & for the past 18 months, IBL's. The IBL is the only speaker that I have owned over the last 25 years that I find a thing of real beauty.
The proportions & simplicity of the enclosure reflects a Bauhaus minimalist purity.
Bob.
The new Royd Revelation R3. Helpfully provided by Mark Ellis Jones
"Model R.R.3
R.R.3 is a stand mounted compact loudspeaker just 328mm high 190mm wide and 192mm front to back. It has a nominal impedance of 8 ohms, a crossover frequency of 4.5khz and may be used comfortably with amplifiers delivering 40 to 100 watts."
Designed to go up against the wall (ahem) Not sure if its infinite baffle but must be released soon. I wonder if this is the model that Paul Stephenson was so impressed by.
http://forums.naim-audio.com/eve/forums?q=Y&a=tpc&s=67019385&f=48019385&m=5401932531#2651927731
John
quote:
Have you considered other options? A 82 in your system would likely transform it beyond recognition.
Joe, this whole poll thing is a academic exercise, I have absolutely no intention of replacing my Kans. I own the best pair I have ever seen, and I consider them to be easily capable of showing up defects in everything I own upstream of them. They are good for a CDS2 / 52 / 500 at least!
I started this poll because there is so much talk about Kans round here, and probably no real equivalent available (I would have to hear the Cura 05 or Super Elf for myself). Many people who may want a small infinite baffle wall proximity speaker, and are either reluctant to purchase an old second hand speaker with a discontinued bass driver, or do not have access to them in their country. I honestly think there is a massive market for such a speaker were someone brave enough to make it.
After going to most of the UK hi-fi shows over the past year or so I am convinced that most current speakers are absolutely crap. I really hate the trend for reflex ported floorstanders, 90% of them sound absolutely awful to my ears. I can usually tell whether they are ported, and what note the port is tuned to from outside the room they are that poor.
If I were a loudspeaker manufacturer I would make two loudspeakers:
The first would be the Kan-alike discussed here. It would be similarly sized to the Kan, would obviously still be a infinite baffle wall proximity speaker. I would attempt to better the Kan on efficiency and power handling. This should be possible with the advances in driver technology. I would probably still voice it a bit on the mid forward side of neutral as I think this is one reason the Kan sounds so good in small rooms, it would be nice if the frequency response was a just little more even though. It would be nice to price it under £1000.
The second would be a much larger three way infinite baffle stand mount. Effectively this would be a modern Gale 401, which is another speaker that has absolutely zero competition at the moment in today’s market this side of an NBL or Mini-Utopia. The size and driver layout would be similar to the 401 – i.e. two 8” bass drivers, a mid and a tweeter. I would want it to move far more air than an SBL (like the Gales), and have a real tight weighty and punchy sound. The only thing I would change from the Gale concept is that I would make it a wall proximity job. I would be surprised if a speaker like this done well could be priced much under 3000.
Tony.
Sorry, I misread your post. I thought you were looking for -- perish the thought -- Kan replacements.
While I agree with you that there is some pent up demand for a Kan-like speaker, in the current market it is undoubtedly a very improbable venture. Naim discontinued the IBLs because they didn't sell very well, and Linn kanned the Kans because production costs were deemed to be too high -- maybe that plus being on route to losing the plot.
Not that I'm looking to ditch the Sorcerers but I would be very interested in hearing the new Royds. Help me Obi-Wan Kenobi; they may be our only hope.
Joe
You've traded down from 135s to a 250. How about going all the way and trading "up" to an active 140 set-up?
Ron The Mon
You said;
quote:
The Kan is very inefficient
and won't handle masses of power.
Two Points:
1. It is the tweeter that can't handle the
power. I use a Marshall Major(200-watt tube
amp) to play guitar through a Kan 1 (only the
woofer is hooked-up; no tweeter or crossover)
and have played it on "10" for over ten years
and have yet to blow it up. I prefer it to
playing through my half-stack(4/12-inch
drivers) specifically because the Kans are so
inefficient(the woofer) and allows me to get
the sound of a cranked Major at a lower volume. I also use this same Kan with a small
solid-state amp when sitting in at small clubs
with excellent results!
2. The three newest tweeters that Linn sell
that are direct replacements in the Kan handle
gobs more power than the Hiquofin or Scanspeak
models. I have blown two sets of Hiquofins and
one set of Scanspeak and have yet to destroy
the newest editions(and I occasionally play
music LOUD!!)
Ron The Mon
quote:
Naim discontinued the IBLs because they didn't sell very well
But was it the lack of market demand or what I (and others) felt was poor aesthetics?
To be fair, if IBL's had been available when I bought my Kans, I'd almost definitely have bought a pair, despite my criticism. I just feel the market demands both good sound and looks these days, there's a lot of attractive competition out there now (surely one reason for the 5 series appearance?) even if it doesn't come remotely close sonically.
You have to counter the WAF's and get people through the door into your shop before you have a hope of selling anything.
Comparing the IBL against Intro / Credo / Vivo / NBL etc and I know which speaker most people would prefer (on looks alone).
It's a challenge for Naim, since the foam grills (which in my opinion make every speaker I've seen them on look less than attractive, along with being a dust magnet extrordinaire) are sonically the best solution to dispersion.
Andy.
Andrew L. Weekes
alweekes@audiophile.com
quote:
While I agree with you that there is some pent up demand for a Kan-like speaker, in the current market it is undoubtedly a very improbable venture. Naim discontinued the IBLs because they didn't sell very well, and Linn kanned the Kans because production costs were deemed to be too high
I remain convinced that there is a market for a true high end wall proximity infinite baffle stand mount that is compromised on size and nothing else. It would be aimed at people who could afford SBLs or even DBLs, but simply could not house them. Frank also makes a very good point about the need for excellent wall proximity small speakers in a AV surround system. It would be a speaker that could sensibly be hung actively off the end of two 500s.
I have never seen a Kan like speaker as remotely being a competitor to say a Credo, they are both a totally different. Some people (myself included) simply do not want a ported floorstander.
I think that the market has changed quite a lot since the IBL and Kan were binned off. I am sure I am not the only one here who would find it very hard to find a speaker I could live with out of what is currently available.
Ron said:
quote:
The three newest tweeters that Linn sell that are direct replacements in the Kan handle gobs more power than the Hiquofin or Scanspeak models.
How well do the new tweeters integrate into a passive Kan? If they have the same response characteristics I may well be interested in getting mine upgraded as I have heard very good things about the new Linn unit.
I have no intention of going active until I have 52 level stuff up front (this could take years), though changing to a 250 has made this a far more realistic proposition for the future as there are plenty of old ones about, and they are not too expensive.
Tony.
I had forgotten about the polystyrene wonders. I believe Tony may have heard them once at his place. They are Acoustic Research FR1's (there you go Ashley). They're small, have a single hand-made aluminium driver (by Ted Jordan), and the casing is polystyrene with a hard outer shell.
Upsides:
1. The casing removes any hint of cabinet characteristic. After hearing this speaker, you will have to adjust back to cabinet honk (sealed unit or not). It's almost like you've got to pop your ears after a flight.
2. Fast. Like no other. I've not heard anything that is as fast as this. SBL's are pretty fast, but not in the same class. Kans may be a little closer, but I'd be surprised if they were this quick (memory doesn't serve - it's been too long since I've heard Kans).
3. (In this case) Wall Proximity Speaker, preferably corner-proximity for extra reinforcement - every little bit counts with this speaker.
Downsides:
1) They're quite delicate. The casing on the polystyrene shell is very thin so they're easily damaged. There's no crossover to the driver, so they take the juice straight-up with no ice. Drive them too loud and they'll pop. Loud is anything above 95db.
2) Frequency extremes are limited. There's little bass to speak of (definition of bass: < 80Hz) even when near a wall (ok maybe you'll get down to 60hz). Treble starts to tail off around 17 - 18khz, but what's there is liquid gold.
3) Extremely light. They'll come off their stands if you nudge them lightly, or if the old NACA5 is under strain - not good with a delicate bodyshell.
I hadn't mentioned them because they are such a quirky design, but I guess they fit the 'design brief'.
Cura are alive and well and still in business. The CA series is still going, but Cura are introducing a new less expensive range as well. I don't know much about it.
Regards,
Frank.
quote:
I had forgotten about the polystyrene wonders. I believe Tony may have heard them once at his place.
Yes I did hear the single driver FR1 things. I can't remember the manufacturer who made them, though it was definitely not Acoustic Research. I believe they were designed by or had some other connection to Tom Evans.
It was a flawed dem as time was very limited, so they were just plonked on top of the ProAc Tablette 50 Sigs I used at the time. I have to admit that I did not like them at all. I felt they had a very strong midband coloration and a remarkable lack of any treble, they had a very small, dull and muffled sound compared with the ProAcs, they sounded like a three way speaker with a broken tweeter and woofer. I would certainly like to hear them again sometime in a better location, but I really find it hard to believe they could produce anything like the scale, detail and punch of a well set up pair of Kans.
Tony.
quote:
Been auditioning speakers for more than a year now, and the speaker I'm using in the meantime is my first ever speaker, a Wharfedale sealed 3-way box. And time and again I find it could teach all 10 reflexed speakers I've had at home a thing or two about punchy and in-time bass, not that it's close to perfect in any way, but still.
This used to be a very popular design of speaker. The real classics include the AR11, AR3a, and Yamaha NS1000. The Gale is slightly different in that it manages to squeeze two 8" bass drivers into a comparatively small enclosure. All these speakers play bass instruments so fundamentally better than any reflex design I have ever heard seems capable of doing.
There is also no direct equivalent today of say the AR6, which was a infinite baffle wall proximity speaker (as were all ARs) with an 8" bass driver, and cabinet volume of about two and a half to three Kans. A stunning speaker.
The only reasons I can possibly think of to build a bass reflex speaker are:
- It can be made efficient enough to be driven by some wussy under powered valve amp.
- A ported cabinet is not subjected to anything like the same internal pressures as a sealed box, so can be made far cheaper.
- As the cabinet is far cheaper to make, it can be made far bigger, so the customer thinks he is getting a better deal. As there are so few infinite baffle designs around to compare against, the customer is unlikely to hear the massive mistake he is making.
It is truly a grim time for loudspeaker design.
Tony.
Tony,
I think your hatred of ports is leading to a bit extreme view on speakers. I agree there is plenty of crap out there but there are plenty of speakers which sound good and have ports (i.e I have heard some Sonus Fabers and Wilson's sound good and they have ports).
Dev
25 people would want such a speaker so far. Hardly convincing market research but this is not true market research anyway.
I dare say naim could make such a speaker but given that that the speaker market is one of the most competitive of all hi-fi products, and so few people actually want a new Kan, why would they, or anyone else bother?
Perhaps you should be canvassing Linn?
You don't like ported speakers, well fair enough. I have Royd Minstrels (side ported), and I love 'em. I have not heard Kans so I can't compare, but I have not heard DBLs, Sonus Faber, ESls etc.
cheers
Nigel
This is a bit of a bitch to drive (135s minimum, 500 preferable). It's single-wired, has two main bass drivers (6.5inch I think), a mid-range driver and a fabulous tweeter and yes - it's a sealed box.
They're not huge, having a narrow 8 inch(?) baffle, but they're deep at about 15 inches. They stand about 5 feet tall and weigh around 35kg. The cabinet is extremely well braced, such that the knuckle rap can be painful. There's little to no give in those panels, and it sounds dead when rapped.
In the right system, they're fabulously dynamic, pacey speakers with great PR&T (in my view). They also have a detailed and sweet treble, tuneful bass, very little cabinet characteristic, great scale and soundstaging. This is a serious competitor to the NBL for passive systems.
However, at this level they need to be freestanding. Walls are a no-no since their bass response is such that the wall would join the party to the detriment of the music.
As to the FR1's, you're right Tony - the company is Acoustic Precision and I'm becoming a dullard in my old age. Yes, they were designed by Tom 'The Groove' Evans. I don't think they can produce the scale, but they're incredibly quick with timing which is very difficult to fault. But yes, I agree they are a severely compromised speaker.
Regards,
Frank.
if you're discussing a floor-standing version of Tony's stand-mount wet-dream then you might as well bring the NBL into the equation, too!
It's a three-way with twin 8" bass drivers, and is sealed, too.
cheers, Martin
quote:
You don't like ported speakers, well fair enough. I have Royd Minstrels (side ported), and I love 'em. I have not heard Kans so I can't compare, but I have not heard DBLs, Sonus Faber, ESls etc.
To answer the above, and Dev's mail further up, I do not think all ported speakers are inherently evil, ok most definitely are, but there are actually some I really quite like from Neat, Royd, Sonus Faber, Naim, and Epos amongst others.
The problem is that there is so little choice currently available to the consumer. It is assumed that if you have between 400-1000 quid to spend you must want some big two way ported free space floorstander. I am not even attempting to petition Naim to build the high quality miniature I imagine, I'm just pointing out that as no one shuts up about Kans for more than about a week, and a large number of quite well off people now live in small city centre apartments, there simply has to be a market.
The hi-fi scene is currently bonkers: If you want to buy some totally outlandish valve amp that glows blue and looks like it fell off the set of the original 1930s Flash Gordon series there is actually a surprising amount of choice - if however you want a tiny little IB speaker that sounds great and won't boom up against the wall in your trendy city centre apartment you are forced to the second hand market hunting for a 15 year old design. This is IMHO totally and utterly bizarre. If someone made one, they would have the whole of this market. I admit that Neat and Royd both have stuff that is quite close to this goal, but I am absolutely convinced that if they were a cost no object IB design they would be far better.
Tony.
One thing I would say though is that having pulled the kans apart to bypass the crossover they're really pretty simple speakers. I guess the drive units would cost no more than £200, assuming a replacement for the woofer could be located. And the only thing impressive about the box is that it's pretty thick and therefore weighty. In fact if I recall the most original kans were in BBC LS3/5a boxes. I notice that Wilmslow will do a design service so if there are enough interested parties we could club together and commission a one-off newkan. Ignore the crossover, naxos are pretty cheap and having gone the active route its definitely the way to go. It also cements the speaker at the serious end of things too.
Phil
I have a tendency to agree with you. I believe Wilson Bebesch are close to the mark with their small Isobarik-loaded speaker I can't remember the name of, however they have haven't 'notched' the bass down so that it can be wall mounted and it costs £5k!
Why don't you go into business? OEM the mid/bass from Naim, the treble from Scanspeak and the cabs from Castle? Bob, could indeed be your uncle.
Most speaker manufacturers seem to tune their port to about 40 - 45 Hz, which is a bugger as they are resonating at the bass guitar's lowest note causing that bass 'hum' rather than a taught note you should get.
B&W's N 801 takes another route. I don't believe that the port is for additional bass output (its tuned to 17 Hz I think) but for power handling. Having said that its a bugger to drive and as result its bass tends to be all over the place for different reasons.
Gale 401a - very cool looking, normally used sideways on something like Sara stands.
AR3a #2 - the first pair are in pretty bad condition, but show the drivers, the second pair look great with grills on. That’s a 12" bass driver in there.
Both are stunning sounding loudspeakers.
Tony.
I know that Kans get mentioned more than mana these days but it is the same people day after day. For all you say Tony, there is no significant demand on this forum let alone any other evidence that anyone else wants the speaker you describe.
I think the suggestion above is a good one: either build it yourself or commission a small but reputable manufacturer to do it for you. You could then sell them on in huge quantities and so be able to afford a big house with a listening room large enough to get some real speakers.
cheers
Nigel
My Neats have the Gravitas subwoofers, which work in a similar way to the Briks - i.e. isobaric loading of bass drivers. I've mentioned it before within this thread, but everyone should try to hear a pair of Petites with and without the Gravitas driven by a capable and quality amp and then you might find you're at the horizon where flat-earth meets round-earth. I'm there, and it's fun.
FWIW, however, I believe early Audio Physics were IB, although I may be wrong. A couple of months with a pair of Virgos demonstrated to me that it's not the fact that a speaker has or hasn't got a ported bass, it's how it's implemented - however, to get it all to work, the speakers needed to be way out into the room. And in any case, the Virgos go for around £3500, so they're hardly cheap. But, <i>wow</i>, what a speaker!
John (who didn't buy the Virgos 'cause creeping around 4' high speakers which get in the way is not really what he wanted)