Standard of Living – Risen?

Referring to Mr AM's original point, it would seem that things were easy in the old days/hard now, but people seem to choose to support this lifestyle in UK.

I don't, although I am 95. We do have choice.

quote:

although I am 95.

Is this a typo error?

Mr Toy

People who whinge how the system is stacked against them are losers.

You are not helping yourself by analysing the problem because it is there and will not go away.

What you should be doing is to get off your ass and secure a job that pays more than what you are currently on.

That way you can give the future Mrs Toy a house of her own instead of a rented one.

No one likes whingers who are in a predicament of their own making.

BTW, I am soon off to Bulgaria to look at buying another holiday home. If I can do it, so can you or anyone else.

To quote the late Barry Sheene..." If your boat is out there, bloody well swim and meet it"

Regards

Mick

Funny how there are so many racing motorcyclists and only one Barry Sheene, innit?

I hadn't heard about his successes at swimming and boating. (with all those broken bones he might have been a bit handicapped fighting against a strong tide and a headwind) Besides most people use a dinghy to reach their boat.

I suppose he could always have used the funnyhandshakegang's heads bobbing in the water as stepping stones to reach his goal?

I am 95 in the sense of Mr AM's initiating post on this topic.

quote:

BTW, I am soon off to Bulgaria to look at buying another holiday home. If I can do it, so can you or anyone else.

Mick,

Your grasp of economics is somewhat challenged - if everybody did it house prices would go up even further and would thus still be beyond the reach of most people! Yes I'm pissed off that I cannot afford to buy a house today because homes have become an investment commodity in place of equities. However Mick, unlike you I look beyond just my own situation in that even if I could afford right now to buy a house I'd still be equally concerned that the percentage of homes owned by those who live in them is going to fall rapidly over the next few years, and that this is a trend deliberately encouraged by this government. You also seem perfectly happy with it as it makes you richer, but forget not that your wealth will be at the expense of your grandchildren in years to come who may still be paying rent out of their measly pensions.

Who will pay the rent for pensioners in a couple of generations' time who won't be buying in the near future because they won't be able to pay off a mortgage by the time they retire?

Not so long ago anyone with a job could afford to buy their own home. Indeed, a friend of mine who stacks shelves at Tescos, and has done so since he left full-time education at the age of 20, is paying less on his mortgage for the house he bought six years ago than I pay in rent. That, surely, is a very desirable social situation, and I fail to see why the government wants to bring to an end the era of ordinary folks owning their own homes (other than for political expediency and to fuel a property building boom.)

The future Mrs Toy will never be a housewife and ruler-of-the roost with her future husband under the thumb at home, unlike someone I could mention... We both work and earn, and this brings us back to Adam's original point - working harder and earning more will not fix the problem as this will just drive house prices even higher.

The only solution will be punitive taxes on buying-to-let instead of raiding pension funds derived mainly from equities.

Also, stamp duty levels should be set by taking into account the total value of property held by any given individual or corporation, rather than just on the value of any individual dwelling. The threshold could then be set at around the average UK price of a 4-bed home - say, 250k.

Currently if oily property developer buys, for example, 25 starter homes valued at £125k each he pays no stamp duty. If the total value of all the homes he owned were taken into account, i.e: once the total value of his bricks and mortar assets were to exceeded the threshold upon purchasing another dwelling he'd then be liable to pay the stamp duty percentage on the value of all the homes he then owned. So he'd be ok buying just two of those starter homes at 125k each, but once he bought the third home he'd then pay the 2% stamp duty on all three homes as their combined value would exceed the 250k mark.

Owning 25 such homes would leave him with a nice big stamp duty bill, especially if the stamp duty percentage continued to rise above given thresholds (say 2% from 250k to 500k, then 5% from 500k to 750k, 7% from 750k and above etc. on TOTAL property assets, not just those exceeding any given threshold.) Thus he would be forced to take his money elsewhere, allowing starter homes to be bought by those who would otherwise be renting from him. Then there will be a transfer of major capital away from the tangibles of bricks and mortar and back into the intangibles of equities where it should be. Thus the stock market will flourish and rise above the 7000 level of pre 9/11, instead of floundering just above the 5000 mark. Note that the Dow Jones is now well above its pre 9/11 level of c.10,000 because there's no Gordon Brown (with more than just a tinge of new-style red) running the US economy.

quote:

Originally posted by Mick Parry:
No one likes whingers who are in a predicament of their own making.

Phew - that gets me off the hook there then

Anyone wanna donate some eyes??

Mr Toy

Your opening sentence was

"Mick,

Your grasp of economics is somewhat challenged"

I think most people, even those who regard me as a pompous windbag, would conceed than when it comes to money, I run circles around you.

Your point about people like me stitching up my grandchildren demonstrates the rigidity of your thinking.

The world will be a totally different place in twenty years time when they have grown up and once again it will be a case of some get the prize and some do not.

I have taught my children that life is competitive and fortunately it is also filled with underachieving fools who are easy competition. Anyone with a brain and the nerve to follow his/her instincts will do well for themselves in the future just as their ancestors done well for themselves in the past.

I have sufficient confidence in my grandchildren to know which side of the fence they will lie.

You need to change your attitude, become a do-er and an achiever rather than some philosopher sitting on the sidelines acruing knowledge whilst others acrue wealth.

At the end of the day, it is down to you.

Regards

Mick

Thanks god not everyone is interested in the accumulation of wealth for the sake of it. Or we'd have no teachers, scientists, GPs, dentists, university staff, hifi shop staff, insurance workers, office staff generally, chemists, firemen, armed service personnel, dustmen, policemen, postmen, nurses, council staff, oil rig personnel, media staff, telecom staff, amateur sportspersons, conservationists, museum staff, bakers, mechanics, cycle manufacturer factory workers, car workers, decorators, furniture makers, energy producers, railway workers, computer manufacturers, printers, artists, plumbers, electricians, churches, organists, orchestras, potters, watering can manufacturing staff, taxi drivers, etc.etc. Would you like me to on....?

Would you also like to give your vitally important "work" a score out of ten in comparison with the importance of any of the above? Thought not.

Thanks Nime

I'll add that I could probably get a more stressful job that earned me more money but I choose not to. That's my peogative in a free world.

I also have the right to object to a society whereby ordinary folks with ordinary aspirations, irrespective of their potential earning power based on some ill-founded notion of material greed, MUST (according to Mick) reach their earning potential which, in turn, drives up the prices of essentials like a roof over your head.

Discussions like this serve to inform the thinking voting population as to where our priorities surely lie; quality of life should surely be more important than a high material standard of living. Owning your own modest dwelling should hardly be considered a particularly ambitious aspiration for anyone living in the UK after a recent heritage of a majority of householders (64*% at the last/highest count, IIRC) owning the place in which they live.

Mick is not exactly representative of the mindset of folks of this nation, and I hope he appreciates that the electorate may eventually wake up and vote out a government intent on a rather perverse flavour of social engineering.

Mick, you'll never be sure that your grandchildren will be in a position to own their own homes after you are pushing up the daisies. Even our Adam has to rent his home (according to what he's written here) and he's one of the venerable Naim's senior management team!

The world will be a totally different place in twenty years time when they have grown up and once again it will be a case of some get the prize and some do not.

Unlike you Mick, I see a pattern emerging regarding the future on these matters that isn't as random and open to individual opportunistic manipulation as you may (wish to) believe.

If you don't wish to take such a gamble on your grandchildrens' future, I suggest you change your voting colours - Blair & co aint no Thatcher-style individualistic Tories!

What you leave your future offspring in terms of your doctrines + any more tangible legacy in terms of inheritance you may pass on to them will be no guarantee of their success either.

Mick,

I realise that you are a believer in the free market, that people are paid according to their ability and industry, but I think there are two issues here:

1. Some people have a desire to work in certain fields that have a high value to society and require a high level of skill but these areas do not always pay well eg conservation, nursing, the arts and dare I say it flying. Wages in these sectors are lower than they otherwise would be because lots of people want to do these jobs so it's a simple case of supply of jobs and demand for them. Personally I think workers in these fields should be paid fairly.

2. The widening gap between the affluent and those on middle incomes who are struggling to afford to buy a home is causing social problems and a great deal of frustration. I think being able to afford a home should be viable for everyone who is prepared to work hard in their chosen field. Given the increasing disparity in earnings I feel the Government should intervene to ensure those owning 2nd and 3rd homes are taxed very heavily so it discourages people from viewing property as an investment. It isn't it's a fundamental human need. I have no problem with the well off owning six yachts, five plasma screens, four cars or whatever but I have much more of an issue with them owning several houses.

When I was in Arizona I flew over huge settlements of people living in trailer parks and began to understand the term 'trailer trash' for the first time. Meanwhile in the upmarket neigbourhood I was staying in there were countless huge and beautiful homes. I wouldn't want to see such a disparity here. How can the wealthiest nation on earth allow millions to live in caravans?

I don't deny the free market is a powerful instrument, but I don't think it should be allowed to create social misery either. Perhaps that's where we differ.

Much as I despised Thatcher for many of her policies it has to be said that her sale of council houses was a fantastic blessing for millions. The crime is that she didn't continue building more of them.

Jonathan

Brilliant post Jonathan.

Hear Hear

BTW Mick - remember this - you can't take it with you, and the government will take most of it from you (inheritence tax, anyone?) so why bust a gut to be the best of the best when being able to eat, sleep and live in comfort without fear of poverty should be all you need?

Just to add insult to misery a psychologist is now suggesting that obsesity is a race response to globalisation and all the stresses of modern life. The moment a developing country gets a middle class the buggers inflate like michelin men (and women).

Personally I think it's just god's way of punishing me for safely reaching the ripe age of a dirty old man. Every young woman I should be oggling now outweighs me by three to one!

Jonathan

The free market is not perfect but it works better than any other system.

Dom

I am not trying to be the best of the best but I accept that I need to work for an extra couple of years to buy the house in spain. I shall most certainly pack work in at 60, no matter what.

Regards

Mick

You can't keep a good man down. Not even when you mention "global warming" and the likelihood of Portugal and Spain becoming quite uninhabitable in the near future!

re - the standard of living-risen?

no matter how you percieve things, inflation determins the price of everything, except for the most important necessity, food. this has actually become very cheap compared to the price of everything else.
also, material products have become more accessable monetry wise, cars, hi-fi, holidays abroad (not strictly a material product). 30 years ago a 18 yr old driving a new car of his/her own, going on a foreign holiday with mates was only accessable by the wealthy, now it seems the norm. compared to property inflation tho', in realistic terms, most consumeable and even luxury items are reasonably well priced. 2nd and 3rd houses are getting v common too, but most people who have money to invest, have slowed buying property here, spain,italy etc, and are putting money into future hot spots along the likes of eastern europe & turkey because its still quite cheap compared to most places nowadays. good call i say (if you can afford it!) a nice little earner for the fortunate when retitement age looms.

we all would like to better ourselves, have the nice things in life, have a healthy family etc, but certain events in our lives change the way things turn out. i have had many encounters with clients who have been lucky enough to be born into wealth, had great starts in life, only it to go very tits up due to recessions, changes in economies, *the fashion* etc. they have been hard working, sensible honest people with virtually blue chip company's and its gone totally arse-up for them.

on most things in life, you do choose the path to go down, BUT it doesn't always end up where you want/expect/hope to.
be happy with what you've got,not unhappy with what you havn't


btw Mick, you do talk total bollocks!!!!
i have never ,EVER come across such a self righteous person all my life! you critisise beyond belief, you have no respect for others in your postings, you are not always right, quite contrary in your narrow minded aspect on life.

this astounded me
"I think most people, even those who regard me as a pompous windbag, would conceed than when it comes to money, I run circles around you."

who the hell do you think you are for christ sake????

i can put that same statement to you!!
i run my own company, employ 13 people, who are treated with respect because without their dedication, i wouldn't have a buisness to earn a living. i am grateful to them for that.
i don't pay myself a great wage, i'd rather have a happy workforce that look forward to come to work and earn themselves a good wage knowing the fact that they will come in the next day with enthusiasm and without the worry of them leaving and leaving me in the shit.open your eyes parry, we aint all as perfect as you. totally astounding man!!!!!!!

I watched a programme on BBC2 tonight on how unfettered capitalism really works - in Moscow.

Without checks and balances in place, folks literally get bulldozed out of wooden homes they actually own to make way for appartment blocks flats that fetch $50,000 dollars for each flat. There is no compensation on offer for the dispossessed. Moreover, the law out there states that if your home is burnt to the ground you lose the land it once occupied. Arson is now imminent in one village comprising of wooden dachas, with its residents holding firm, on the outskirts of Moscow...

A much-diluted version of this scenario in the UK may mean that your grandchildren won't get a look-in in when nearly all homes in this country are owned by but a handful of individuals within a generation.

Only this evening I had probably my last beer in a very nice, and rather large old pub/restaurant/function room (those who booked it up for their wedding receptions have fortunately received their letters of cancellation, and will now have to look elsewhere quickly or cancel the church...) that will soon be demolished to make way for a housing development. Part of the building - its entrance is Listed, but that seems to mean nothing... Within 300 yards there is also a service station that has just closed, and only three years ago it was completely renovated including the installation of new fuel wells and pumps, not to mention its show-piece shop. You guessed it, it will now make way for housing development.

If you think the Moscow situation was so far removed from that in the UK, consider that a large field left by a landowner a few generations ago backing onto my parents' house to an educational trust (i.e: that it should be used as a sports field and not sold on) was sold by the local authorities a couple of years ago for the building of houses that are, for the most part, not owned by the occupants thereof. The sale of the land for such development was probably ILLEGAL, but it happened anyway.

Before long, viable shopping and leisure centres will be meeting the same fate - simply because the land they occupy will be worth much more for the building of houses that will be owned by maybe one or or two property holders, and not any of the dwellers therein.

How long will it be before owner-occupier 4-bed homes get bulldozed to make way for flats/smaller homes here in the UK?

I believe in the free market, but its unfettered version really sucks, and benefits onlty a tiny few.

Blair's government is resembling more and more the oligarchical partnership between state and a handful of big capitalists that exists in post-soviet Russia.

PS: Mick,

Be careful with that house purchase out in Bulgaria - a former Soviet satellite state. You may return to it one day to find it's either disappeared or some local bugger with more connections than you has taken possession of it.

Complex world, isn't it - lots of good/lots of bad people etc ...

And Spain is not free of people losing their homes that they thought they legally owned - 20000 homes are being scratched near Marbella because they had been built without planning permission and with laundered money -

quote:

Originally posted by Mick Parry:
I have taught my children that life is competitive and fortunately it is also filled with underachieving fools who are easy competition.
Mick

I can just picture the scene at Parry Towers.

The stage: A victorian-style drawing room. Lord Parry sits in front of a roaring log fire, a fine whisky and cigar in hand. As he throws another socialist into the blaze, he sighs and rests his feet, weary from a day's exploitation of the poor, on the back of his wife crouched at his feet. A young child, Parry minor, rushes into the room.

'Pappa, Pappa' he cries. 'Can I go and play ring-a-roses with the servants' children'?

'What!!' Booms the Lord, rising from his plush arm-chair and sending Lady Parry flying. 'I don't pay good money to send you to be flogged at Eaton so you can mingle with the riff-raff'. Get into the school-room and finish reading my mighty tome 'On the exploitation of the workouse for the profit of a gentleman''.

'Now leave me alone. I need to finish my plan to force Romanian peasants from their ancestral lands and convert them into a Uranium mine.'



Stephen

Stephen

You may mock but you have to admit, there are some right mugs out there.

All I am doing is stating a few honest facts.

My main point is that people like Mr Toy moan about not being able to afford a house and yet chose to do a low stress, dead easy job.

It is his choice but he should cut out the moaning.

Regards

Mick

It's no use Mr Toy. You're just going to have to get a proper career... as a PO executive! From there on it's all downhill. And I know just the chap who could put a good word in for you!

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Toy:
Only this evening I had probably my last beer in a very nice, and rather large old pub/restaurant/function room (those who booked it up for their wedding receptions have fortunately received their letters of cancellation, and will now have to look elsewhere quickly or cancel the church...) that will soon be demolished to make way for a housing development. Part of the building - its entrance is Listed, but that seems to mean nothing... Within 300 yards there is also a service station that has just closed, and only three years ago it was completely renovated including the installation of new fuel wells and pumps, not to mention its show-piece shop. You guessed it, it will now make way for housing development.

Steve,

apparently there is a shortage of homes.

In such a situation, prices will always rise until the necessary portion of the market are unable to afford.

It would seem that these flats will help in some small way to alleviate this problem without turning yet another bit of green belt into concrete jungle.

cheers, Martin