Colours to the Mast

Posted by: Andrew Randle on 09 January 2002

Dear all,

Some of you have asked me whether or not I have (shock, horror) made the change to Linn. The short answer is "yes". Tony L, Vuk, JC and maybe some others have asked me this and I did contemplate emailing them personally rather than appearing like some kind of turncoat on the forum. Well I decided it is better to be a turncoat than a yellow-coat and state my position openly

The whole thing started when I auditioned Linn and Naim amplifiers at my dealer in York. The impressiveness of the Naim amplifiers won me over and I started investing in Naim. The same thing happened with the CDX and I was concerned (as my dealer was) that the Ikemi was underperforming and not showing what Linn was capable of doing.

Later, I was interested in installing a 2nd smaller system in my other abode near where I work (withdrawl symptoms eh? ). I decided to give Linn a 2nd chance and auditioned a Genki/Kolektor/LK140/K400/Katans at Linn in Harrods. It was fantastic, far better than the more expensive Linn system at the dealers in York.

So, a while after I buy and have the system installed (part from Harrods, part from Audio-T in Reading - thanks Frank!) I go back up north to listen to my CDX/72/HiCap/110/Kan II....

....penny drops. The music wasn't gelling as well as the Linn system. In fact, the Linn system blew me away, and I had trouble getting into the music with the Naim kit.

I did the CD player comparison again at the Sound Organisation (York) - although without the CD55. This time I used Linn amps, cabling and loudspeakers (Kolektor/LK140/K400/Katans).

Started off with the Genki (as I have in my system) and it sounded similar - always a good start

Then swapped the Genki for the Ikemi. Now, the problem with the Ikemi at the dealer was that it was an old version (Linn have made subsequent modifications) and we had the feeling that this sample was sub-standard - hence the bad demo months earlier. The feeling was still the same, fair enough the Ikemi did give lift a bit more dimensionality from the performers and there was noticably more bass. The down point was that the Genki was more lyrical than the Ikemi sample (a bit plus point). Overall the old sample of the Ikemi was not deemed to be of good value-for-money.

Next came the CDX. The CDX was "technically brilliant" by comparison. Extremely well balanced frequency response, more bottom end than the Linns, lots of enthusiasm (not that the Genki didn't have any). You would have thought that I would have gone for it... (well on first listening I did, remember? . Well there was a problem, two problems in fact, and something that was highlighted when comparing between my Naim system (when I had it) and Linn system. The first problem is that in its enthusiasm the CDX played music AT me, while the Genki engaged me with the music. The second problem was that the Genki was far far superior to the CDX (IMHO) with the timing of interplay between different musicians... GUYS, DO NOT CONFUSE SPEED WITH TIMING WHEN AUDITIONING KIT.

Another point I noticed between the CDX and Genki [this may seem crazy, but I have repeatedly found this to be the case for me] is the way the foot taps to Linn, and the way the foot taps to Naim is entirely different. With Naim, the tapping is somewhat forced and mechanical (almost feeling my ankle grinding), with Linn it is easy, flows and is very forgiving (while still accurate).

I decided to stick with the Genki for the moment. The dealer mentioned that latest versions of the Ikemi are far better and many customers are extremely pleased with their Ikemi purchase. This was a test I would have to leave till later. However, I have an extra CD player (CDX) to trade in for something... hmmmm maybe let's try an LP12.

The comparison was quite a revelation. Both the CDX and LP12 have the same level of technical brilliance, both having a similar level of frequency balance and both revealed similar levels of inner detail to vocals. The difference was however in the groove. The turntable exhibited far more groove, bop, timing (more than the Genki) and easy foot-tapping.

A comparison between the Valhalla and Lingo sold me the Lingo. So, an LP12/Lingo will be heading my way and I have already re-started collecting more vinyl (New Year's Resolution). Oh, I've gone for fluted afromosia (or walnut if they still do it).

So this is it... a rather long winded way of making a decision. Partly diverted by a bad Ikemi, partly diverted by several bad shows by Linn (Hammersmith, Bristol etc.).

The thing is I still have great respect for Naim, in comparison with the rest of the brands, Naim make far more compelling music. For me, there is an exception and that exception is Linn. For me the difference between Linn and Naim is as big as the difference between Naim and the rest. So I have made a decision - although I will still tell others that Naim is worth investigating.

The other point is that I am sure that an extended home demo would have made me come to the same decision sooner. When the time comes to make a decision between Linn or Naim, demo at the dealers to make a decision on which components to audition at home, then spend some time with both sets of kit at home.

Andrew

Andrew Randle
The frightening thing is not dying
The frightening thing is not living

Posted on: 09 January 2002 by Steve Toy

If so, change it for an 82, and then decide which has better lyricism and flow - Naim or Linn.

It's always a nice day for it Have a good one!
Steve.
It's good to get back to normal.

Posted on: 09 January 2002 by Andrew Randle

From prior experience, the 82 is worse in that respect than the 72. Then we get the all important aspect of interplay timing...

Also, how much is a NAC82 and how much is a Kolektor?

Andrew

Andrew Randle
The frightening thing is not dying
The frightening thing is not living

Posted on: 09 January 2002 by Chris L

Well, I, for one, wouldn't call you a "turncoat" - if you're hearing the music better then that's all that counts.

A point I keep trying to make (but that sometimes seems to get lost), is that it's your system and your music. If you prefer Linn over Naim, or even a 95ukp Matsui midi system over either of those, it's no-one's business but yours.

For what it's worth, I couldn't get on with Linn systems - to me (and that's the important bit), they sound cold and rather sterile - and I find Naim much more musical.

Just enjoy the music......

Chris L

Posted on: 09 January 2002 by Andrew Randle

Steven,

As a digression, do you have wireless Internet in your taxi or do you work nights?

Andrew

Andrew Randle
The frightening thing is not dying
The frightening thing is not living

Posted on: 09 January 2002 by Frank Abela

Hey Andrew,

So what's the new 1st system then? Your bio doesn't say.

Have you heard the top of the line Linn 5103 (even into Linn's 50channel power amp)? It's really quite musical for a Linn.:)

Regards,
Frank.
All opinions are my own and do not reflect the opinion of any organisations I work for, except where this is stated explicitly.

Posted on: 09 January 2002 by Tony L

quote:
The thing is I still have great respect for Naim, in comparison with the rest of the brands, Naim make far more compelling music. For me, there is an exception and that exception is Linn. For me the difference between Linn and Naim is as big as the difference between Naim and the rest.

Interesting. Sounds like Linn might have sorted themselves out a bit.

I last really listened to Linn electronics vs. Naim years and years ago, comparing the LK1 / 2 or whatever it was against a 62/140, for me the 62/140 absolutely killed it! The Linn sounded dull, uninvolving, and bland by comparison. I have not A B's Linn and Naim since, though whenever I have heard a full Linn system in a shop I have felt it to be sterile and boring sounding, and ironically to be lacking in the foot tapping groove and tunefulness that they sell themselves on.

Around that time period Linn started doing things to the LP12 that I am not convinced improved it, and stopped making the good speakers in their range (Kan, Sara, Isobarik), replacing them with sterile and bland ported jobs. Their move toward multi-room lifestyle systems for me was the final straw, I considered Linn to be out of the serious audio game.

Lately I have started to hear some positive things about Linn. Perhaps there is some life left in the company after all. I very interested in listening to the Katan, and may consider it in my quest to find a more full range yet easy to drive Kan replacement. I have heard the Ikemi, and whilst it was a flawed dem, I could however tell that it was a pretty serious CD player and worthy of audition.

Linn continue to shoot themselves in foot at audio shows though, their ultra expensive system with the new large speakers sounded mind numbingly boring at the recent shows, reminding me of a Keltek system I heard years back being totally taken to the cleaners by a pair of Tukan in their other dem room.

Lets hope this means Linn are back on track again...

Tony.

Posted on: 09 January 2002 by Andrew Randle

Tony,

The biggest change for Linn has been their drive units. Since they stopped using the crap Tonigen units and started using their new designs, their loudspeakers now reveal what their electronics are capable of doing.

Many barik owners (and Keltik owners for that matter) are changing over to the new treble units and possibly mid-range units with fantastic results.

I would also be the first to agree with the Hammersmith Shows (I did write a thread called "The Trouble with Linn" about this), although I couldn't make it to the last one with the Komris. Both Linn and Naim have sounded bad on on the shop floor too... it's one of those things.

Both Linn and Naim have had raw deals when it comes to demos. For instance, the NBLs in the Chester Hi-Fi Show, and the Keltiks in most shows - although the Keltiks did sound good in the Doncaster show many years ago and also in the Heathrow show when they were introducing the effect of the Linto phono stage on the LP12.

Similarly the DBLs have had a chequered history in shows. I never heard them sound good until last year's Bristol show and the Naim BBQ. Very impressive when given good conditions. I remember the DBLs playing music in an AV set-up in the basement of the Heathrow hotel and that location was definitely a no-no.

As I say, shows are to be taken with a very very big pinch of salt. The best thing about shows is hearing new music, no question about that whatsoever. Sometimes you do get to hear something working properly too in which case it is a bonus.

Frank,

I'm consolidating the system down here. There'll be only one, so no more going around with gusto exclaiming "MY SECOND SYSTEM!".

Andrew

Andrew Randle
The frightening thing is not dying
The frightening thing is not living

Posted on: 09 January 2002 by Greg Beatty

As an aside, how are people's impressions of this shop?

I demo'ed a 5-series/credo Naim setup there and a full blown (Klimax, CD12, etc.) setup there and, frankly, neither did anything for me except make me want to run back to the walkman in my hotel.

Quite dreadful.

- GregB

Insert Witty Signature Line Here

Posted on: 09 January 2002 by Alex S.

Andrew, I know what you mean about the CDX chucking music at you. I was lucky enough to find an ex-dem CDS2 to sort the problem. I am thrilled by this CDP but without it I'd have looked seriously at the competition.

As you may know, I did look seriously at the competition re amplification and ended up with Dynavectors, but these are very Naim-like in presentation, just cheaper sound for pound wise with more hi-fi thrown in as a bonus (IMVHO of course).

My first and final show was the last Novotel and Linn sounded staggeringly bad. I asked a sales guy if they took LP12s to shows these days and he didn't know what I was talking about. I walked out and listened to some music - emanating from a pair of Allaes.

Alex

Posted on: 09 January 2002 by Bob Surgeoner

"Since they stopped using the crap Tonigen units and started using their new designs"

(Andrew Randle)

Andrew,

You've used this phrase, almost vebatim, in several posts recently. Can you explain what informs your prejudice against 'Tonegen'? (correct sp btw!)

In what way do you feel they are inferior to others?

Just curious.

Bob

Posted on: 09 January 2002 by Andrew Randle

...probably the best hi-fi dealer in the world. Despite having a duff Ikemi. What did impress me was managing to set up the same system I have and achieve a similar sound.

Nothing is too much for them. Good solid advice too. The Sound Org has been my primary dealer for the last 10 years.

I don't know how they gave you bad auditions as the rooms are generally good, and they do single 'speaker demos.

Andrew

Andrew Randle
The frightening thing is not dying
The frightening thing is not living

Posted on: 09 January 2002 by Chris L

quote:
...probably the best hi-fi dealer in the world

Seconded. One of only three dealers I've really felt "at home" dealing with.

Of course, feeling "at home" was helped as I lived just round the corner

Chris L

Posted on: 09 January 2002 by Andrew Randle

IMHO (and the opinion of others) Linn's designers took a very bad decision using these partiular Tonegen units. The likely policy was to develop a loudspeaker that masked many of the nasties produced by CD. Consequently this would also mask the qualities of vinyl. First generation Kariks were nowhere near the quality of the LP12. Keltiks, Keilidhs, Tukans etc. seemed to level the playing field more between CD and LP.

Nowadays CD players have mostly eliminated their nasties. With Linn's new drive units, they now manage to produce sweet, controlled and revealing qualities.

Andrew

Andrew Randle
The frightening thing is not dying
The frightening thing is not living

[This message was edited by Andrew Randle on WEDNESDAY 09 January 2002 at 14:48.]

Posted on: 09 January 2002 by Frank Abela

But I can't understand your results with the Ikemi. OK, so the original was a duffer, but their later one isn't and yet you find the Genki more involving. I find the Genki appalling (we sell evry few)! I think the Ikemi is extremely good and a worthy competitor to the CDX for the money so it doesn't bear comparison in my view. Bizarre.

Regards,
Frank.
All opinions are my own and do not reflect the opinion of any organisations I work for, except where this is stated explicitly.

Posted on: 09 January 2002 by Stephen Bennett

Maybe you're just getting old & going deaf, Andrew?

Ey, Pardon?

Stephen

Posted on: 09 January 2002 by Steve Toy

quote:
It's no big problem, forget what anyone else thinks. Loyalty to Naim is not a prerequisite for kudos on this forum, relax man!
Who cares what anyone else thinks? Everyone has their own heaven, you've found yours. Long may it last.

I totally agree.

It is not as though you've done something really drastic like change your stand!

It's always a nice day for it Have a good one!
Steve.
It's good to get back to normal.

Posted on: 09 January 2002 by Bob Surgeoner

- Andrew,

Sorry if I'm being particularly dim today, but I don't think you answered my key question about Tonegen drive units.

Your recent posts clearly implied that they were 'crap' because they were manufactured by Tonegen. Well... in what way exactly are they 'crap'? Please be specific.

Your previous reply suggests that some Linn loudspeakers had been purposely balanced to filter out 'early CD nasties'. Okay.... we'll let that one pass. However, Linn will have clearly specified what they wanted from Tonegen. If the units used in Kelidhs (for instance) were crap, this would surely be due to Linn's brief, rather than crapness on Tonegen's part. Why then this persistent rubbishing of Tonegen, but not Linn?

FWIW, our own bass/mid unit, used in all Neat loudspeakers, was built by Tonegen until a couple of years ago, when they were swallowed up by a larger corporation. It took us a long time to find an alternative supplier who could make this unit as well as Tonegen had, and I find it strange to see their name abused like this without any qualification.

Bob/Neat Acoustics

Posted on: 09 January 2002 by mykel

I was under the impression that Linn started with Scanspeak moved to Hiquphon then to Tonegen. I was under the impression that the new ceramic tweeter was still tonegen.

As for using the new tweeter in older Linn designs. Linn advise against it due to level matching problems. Apparently it requires bringing the treble level up 1-2 db, so for active no problem, passive it's a no no.

My question is how would this work in a pair of passive Kan 1's. Would it tame the shout abit without killing the groove ??? The scanspeaks need replacement, but I don't know with what, currenlty considering Scan's Hiq OW-1 and the current Linn ( Tonegen ? ) ceramic.

michael

Posted on: 09 January 2002 by Tony L

quote:
Bob/Neat Acoustics

Aha, time to ask my current recurring question… which of the Neat range could I happily drive with my Nait 2? I notice the Elites are a healthy 89db, are they a relatively easy drive with it?

I am looking for something with the musical prowess of my Kans, but with a bit of that bass stuff that people harp on about all the time round here, and I guess the Elites or Mystiques may well fit that description.

Tony.

Posted on: 09 January 2002 by quincy

Cats

There aint nothin that will match a lead-lined Karik 3/Hicap/32.5(72 boards)/monoblock 110s/Tukans.

Do yourselves a favor in 2002 and audition the real deal!!

Regards

AQD

Posted on: 09 January 2002 by Steve Toy

I work nights

It's always a nice day for it Have a good one!
Steve.
It's good to get back to normal.

Posted on: 09 January 2002 by quincy

This is a local forum ... we'll have no trouble here !!

Posted on: 09 January 2002 by Alex S.

Frank:

quote:
I find the Genki appalling (we sell very few)

So what happens? You sell Genkis to punters you really don't like?

Steven:

quote:
It is not as though you've done something really drastic like change your stand!

Alex

Posted on: 09 January 2002 by Bob Surgeoner

Tony,

This could get complicated! I'll send you an email.

Bob

Posted on: 09 January 2002 by jcc

quote:
Do you know the drivers manufacturer of the latest Linn range (katan, ninka, espek)?
JC

There has been a tweeter change in the Katan/Ninka range. This occurred somewhere between 6-9 months after introduction. It would probably be safe to say the Espek uses these *new* tweeters as well.

Not sure in either case who the manufacturer was/is. Would be interesting if the early ones were Tonegen.

Cheers,
jim