AV and Naim
Posted by: NigelP on 10 November 2003
Good evening all - been a long time since I've been here but thought that folks would be interested in a neat Naim AV solution that I am building up. When I say Naim I mean Naim centric. To be honest I have felt that Naim, although venturing with some good products, still aren't that committed to AV. That's OK unless you're trying to make your system the centre of the package! Anyway, to the report.
I have a NAC52/500/NBL set up. I have been talking with a couple of dealers about AV - both at the opposite end of the spectrum in terms of their thoughts on where to go. One dealer tells me "keep the two separate - keep your Naim for music and go for a separate speaker package for the AV". The other saying "why would you want to do anything else than use all that amplification and stereo at the front end?".
Anyway, I've gone for something in between and the results are spectacular. I managed to get myself a Denon DVD-A1/AVC-A1SR pair in black and have connected the output of the left/right front into the back of the 52. The centre (Naim Axess) is driven by the AVC-A1SR with a future possible upgrade to take the centre output into a NAPV 145 later. The Axess is a great match for the NBLs and is really shown off when playing the recent Eric Clapton live DVD in DTS mode. Surround is dealt with by the AVC-A1SR again into a rather old but still competant British Loudspeakers BLQ-Q1 (with ScanSpeak tweeters). The line up is completed by the rather tasty M&K MX-700 which is a really, really good subwoofer. It produces music in the bass which brings a smile when playing a live music DVD and is also able to deliver those big sounds when something like a spaceship flies over your head!
So why did I post this? To go the Naim route would have cost me more than I could afford and I am not convinced that Naim have dealt with the problem with surround as well as others. With the Denon pair I get great sound and picture and I can use the Denon amp to power the speakers that my 500 doesn't. Timing isn't an issue (or at least not noticable) and we get to watch movies with awesome sound around us. I considered the Naim AV2 and was astonished at the amount of money I needed to spend on power amps so, if you're like me, have Naim kit that you want to use but don't want to pay an arm and a leg to complete the picture, then this is something you may want to try out. Eventually, I will try the M&K rear speaker package to complete the picture.
You can of course try this with any AV amp so long as you have pre-outputs on the back. Whatever you do - enjoy.
Nigel
P.S. the Denon amp is more than capable of driving that big centre speaker from Naim - it's really easy to drive; nice job folks!
I have a NAC52/500/NBL set up. I have been talking with a couple of dealers about AV - both at the opposite end of the spectrum in terms of their thoughts on where to go. One dealer tells me "keep the two separate - keep your Naim for music and go for a separate speaker package for the AV". The other saying "why would you want to do anything else than use all that amplification and stereo at the front end?".
Anyway, I've gone for something in between and the results are spectacular. I managed to get myself a Denon DVD-A1/AVC-A1SR pair in black and have connected the output of the left/right front into the back of the 52. The centre (Naim Axess) is driven by the AVC-A1SR with a future possible upgrade to take the centre output into a NAPV 145 later. The Axess is a great match for the NBLs and is really shown off when playing the recent Eric Clapton live DVD in DTS mode. Surround is dealt with by the AVC-A1SR again into a rather old but still competant British Loudspeakers BLQ-Q1 (with ScanSpeak tweeters). The line up is completed by the rather tasty M&K MX-700 which is a really, really good subwoofer. It produces music in the bass which brings a smile when playing a live music DVD and is also able to deliver those big sounds when something like a spaceship flies over your head!
So why did I post this? To go the Naim route would have cost me more than I could afford and I am not convinced that Naim have dealt with the problem with surround as well as others. With the Denon pair I get great sound and picture and I can use the Denon amp to power the speakers that my 500 doesn't. Timing isn't an issue (or at least not noticable) and we get to watch movies with awesome sound around us. I considered the Naim AV2 and was astonished at the amount of money I needed to spend on power amps so, if you're like me, have Naim kit that you want to use but don't want to pay an arm and a leg to complete the picture, then this is something you may want to try out. Eventually, I will try the M&K rear speaker package to complete the picture.
You can of course try this with any AV amp so long as you have pre-outputs on the back. Whatever you do - enjoy.
Nigel
P.S. the Denon amp is more than capable of driving that big centre speaker from Naim - it's really easy to drive; nice job folks!
Hello Nigel
Yes, I would also concur that the results can be quite spectacular when integrating Naim equipment with other 'lesser' items when the quest is for an affordable A/V solution.
My two channel set up is CDI/72/Hi-Cap/180/SBL's to which I have added an Sony ES 9000 series DVD/SACD player, ES 9000 A/V processor, and ES 9000 multi-mode 5 channel power amp.
As in your setup, the front left/right from the processor goes to the 72, and the Sony amp drives the rears, in this case a pair of Tannoy mx2's. I don't have center at the moment (running in 'phantom') nor a sub, but still the results really are quite spectacular, agreed.
I'm intending to go with an Access when funds permit, and have no doubt the Sony amp will drive it with ease.
I did some very careful auditioning before going this route, and felt that whilst the AV2/175 set up is the best I've heard, that the overall involvement/enjoyment factor in the movie genre (given we're dealing with a lossy compression system for a start, plus the 'distraction' of the picture) was only slightly higher than equipment that was considerably cheaper.
Thats not to 'bash' Naim - no mistake, I'd have it if I could afford it, as it IS better than the Arcam, Rotel, Denon, and Sony options that I heard, however I too think that for movie use, one can get very close to that level of performance for a lot less outlay.
The top ES Sony range is on par with the top Denons IMHO, and is exceptional value for money, i.e. performance for the cost, as is the Denon, again IMHO.
I've heard many good reports on the M&K subs, but am hoping (pls Naim :-) ) that they will come up with an affordable and high performance sub themselves, to best compliment the SBL's etc.
But as you say, timing, speed, detail, etc is not an issue in my present setup.
I've been VERY surprised and pleased with this, as it is frankly a lot better than I was expecting.
As a matter of interest, who else has gone down this sort or route re integrating Naim with other A/V equipment, and what have been the results? I'm sure more than quite a few of us here would be interested to hear of the positives or pitfalls of such arrangements.
Warmest Regards
John...
Populist thinking exalts the simplistic and the ordinary
Yes, I would also concur that the results can be quite spectacular when integrating Naim equipment with other 'lesser' items when the quest is for an affordable A/V solution.
My two channel set up is CDI/72/Hi-Cap/180/SBL's to which I have added an Sony ES 9000 series DVD/SACD player, ES 9000 A/V processor, and ES 9000 multi-mode 5 channel power amp.
As in your setup, the front left/right from the processor goes to the 72, and the Sony amp drives the rears, in this case a pair of Tannoy mx2's. I don't have center at the moment (running in 'phantom') nor a sub, but still the results really are quite spectacular, agreed.
I'm intending to go with an Access when funds permit, and have no doubt the Sony amp will drive it with ease.
I did some very careful auditioning before going this route, and felt that whilst the AV2/175 set up is the best I've heard, that the overall involvement/enjoyment factor in the movie genre (given we're dealing with a lossy compression system for a start, plus the 'distraction' of the picture) was only slightly higher than equipment that was considerably cheaper.
Thats not to 'bash' Naim - no mistake, I'd have it if I could afford it, as it IS better than the Arcam, Rotel, Denon, and Sony options that I heard, however I too think that for movie use, one can get very close to that level of performance for a lot less outlay.
The top ES Sony range is on par with the top Denons IMHO, and is exceptional value for money, i.e. performance for the cost, as is the Denon, again IMHO.
I've heard many good reports on the M&K subs, but am hoping (pls Naim :-) ) that they will come up with an affordable and high performance sub themselves, to best compliment the SBL's etc.
But as you say, timing, speed, detail, etc is not an issue in my present setup.
I've been VERY surprised and pleased with this, as it is frankly a lot better than I was expecting.
As a matter of interest, who else has gone down this sort or route re integrating Naim with other A/V equipment, and what have been the results? I'm sure more than quite a few of us here would be interested to hear of the positives or pitfalls of such arrangements.
Warmest Regards
John...
Populist thinking exalts the simplistic and the ordinary
I made quite the same
NAC 112/NAP 150/CD 5/FC 2 + Floating Technology Cameleon I speakers on Hifi
For the missing hometheater channels I wondered a long time replacing the 112 by an AV2 but I only added a Rotel RSP 1066 + a pair of Floating Cameleon II on rear and a full Floating Triphonic System (2 sats and a Passive ) bravely but perfectly driven by the center channel of a NAP V 175.
DVD player is a Cambridge DVD 300.
Watching DVDs I notice a little loss of dynamic and general quality on L/R front speakers compared to the other channels due to the 112's unity gain.
[This message was edited by karyboue on TUESDAY 11 November 2003 at 03:38.]
NAC 112/NAP 150/CD 5/FC 2 + Floating Technology Cameleon I speakers on Hifi
For the missing hometheater channels I wondered a long time replacing the 112 by an AV2 but I only added a Rotel RSP 1066 + a pair of Floating Cameleon II on rear and a full Floating Triphonic System (2 sats and a Passive ) bravely
but perfectly driven by the center channel of a NAP V 175.DVD player is a Cambridge DVD 300.
Watching DVDs I notice a little loss of dynamic and general quality on L/R front speakers compared to the other channels due to the 112's unity gain.
[This message was edited by karyboue on TUESDAY 11 November 2003 at 03:38.]
The DVD 9000ES is discontinued.
My personal home AV setup:
DVP9000ES DVDP, Digital HD cable box
AV2
250 MK11, 145, 250 MK1
SBL, Axess, Definitive Tech bipolar rears
Sony 11HT projector, Stewart 92" screen.
Store AV demo system:
DVP9000ES DVDP
NAC252, AV2
NAP300, NAP145, NAP175
NBL,Axent, Intro (3)
Runco VX1000 with outboard scaler, Stewart 110" screen.
(I don't sell Sony, they just do good video stuff, DVDP will of course be replaced by Naim ones ASAP).
Both kits are quite good.
Emmanuel
All opinions are my own, and reflect those of the organisation i work for, even if not stipulated.
My personal home AV setup:
DVP9000ES DVDP, Digital HD cable box
AV2
250 MK11, 145, 250 MK1
SBL, Axess, Definitive Tech bipolar rears
Sony 11HT projector, Stewart 92" screen.
Store AV demo system:
DVP9000ES DVDP
NAC252, AV2
NAP300, NAP145, NAP175
NBL,Axent, Intro (3)
Runco VX1000 with outboard scaler, Stewart 110" screen.
(I don't sell Sony, they just do good video stuff, DVDP will of course be replaced by Naim ones ASAP).
Both kits are quite good.
Emmanuel
All opinions are my own, and reflect those of the organisation i work for, even if not stipulated.
Thought I'd just add a late comment to this (before I go to bed!)
I actually do have NAIM AV amp setup though fronted by a Pioneer 737 DVD player currently based on an AV2/Nait2/NAP175. Based on months of demos I had, this one done it for me. I'd heard the Yamahas, Denon's, Arcams and Tag McClaren, and personally IMHO, the Naim one was the only one that really moved me. Most of the others actually gave me quite nasty ear ache after less than 5 minutes.
The Nait2 is about to be replaced by a 282/200 combo as I've just acquired a 282 from the nice bloke over at Central Audio and just need to purchase the rest of the bits.
All my opinion of course
Steve.
I actually do have NAIM AV amp setup though fronted by a Pioneer 737 DVD player currently based on an AV2/Nait2/NAP175. Based on months of demos I had, this one done it for me. I'd heard the Yamahas, Denon's, Arcams and Tag McClaren, and personally IMHO, the Naim one was the only one that really moved me. Most of the others actually gave me quite nasty ear ache after less than 5 minutes.
The Nait2 is about to be replaced by a 282/200 combo as I've just acquired a 282 from the nice bloke over at Central Audio and just need to purchase the rest of the bits.
All my opinion of course
Steve.
Hello All
Regarding the ES 9000 Sony series, as Manu mentioned, the DVDPS9000ES dvd player has recently been discontinued - I believe the new model is DVD 900ES - not available in all markets - certainly not here in AUS, but from US reviews, it offers better picture again than my machine, and with multichannel SACD sound, as against two channel with my machine.
It appears that in most cases, new models come out pretty much every couple of years; even Arcam - so it's not just the Japanese :-) with constant new model releases - however mine is just over 18mnths old, and I've exceptionally pleased with it from a performance point of view (movie picture and sound) and the build quality and finish that engenders pride of ownership.
For some unknown reason, the TAE -9000ES A/V processor and matching amp TAN -9000ES are still available here in AUS - overseas (US) this has been recently replaced by the new top of the line DA9000ES digital receiver, i.e. digital rather than analogue inbuilt amps.
I got the A/V processor and amp earlier this year, and have been similarly impressed as with the DVD player re performance, build, overall quality etc.
Personally, I think the AV2/175 has the edge performance wise, but I am very pleased with the results as mentioned, and have no difficulty watching two, or on the very odd ocassion three movies in a row
and have had no problems with listner fatigue at all.
Hope this helps
Cheers
John...
Populist thinking exalts the simplistic and the ordinary
Regarding the ES 9000 Sony series, as Manu mentioned, the DVDPS9000ES dvd player has recently been discontinued - I believe the new model is DVD 900ES - not available in all markets - certainly not here in AUS, but from US reviews, it offers better picture again than my machine, and with multichannel SACD sound, as against two channel with my machine.
It appears that in most cases, new models come out pretty much every couple of years; even Arcam - so it's not just the Japanese :-) with constant new model releases - however mine is just over 18mnths old, and I've exceptionally pleased with it from a performance point of view (movie picture and sound) and the build quality and finish that engenders pride of ownership.
For some unknown reason, the TAE -9000ES A/V processor and matching amp TAN -9000ES are still available here in AUS - overseas (US) this has been recently replaced by the new top of the line DA9000ES digital receiver, i.e. digital rather than analogue inbuilt amps.
I got the A/V processor and amp earlier this year, and have been similarly impressed as with the DVD player re performance, build, overall quality etc.
Personally, I think the AV2/175 has the edge performance wise, but I am very pleased with the results as mentioned, and have no difficulty watching two, or on the very odd ocassion three movies in a row
and have had no problems with listner fatigue at all.Hope this helps
Cheers
John...
Populist thinking exalts the simplistic and the ordinary
Hello All
Well I am at a loss to understand the channel reversal scenario as well, so can offer little there unfortunately.
The Sony A/V processor and amp both use 'star earthing' similar to Naim, and hum has not been a problem, thank goodness.
Heh, I think we're all perfectionists in one way or another, and undoubtedly the all Naim route is the ultimate way to go, however Naim, as with other UK manufacturers are a bit up against it cost wise in some overseas markets given rate of exchange, import duties etc, compared to equipment where the currency exchange etc is more favourable.
My Sony DVD, A/V processor, and 5 channel amp. came in at just under half the AUS $$ required to fund an AV2/175 alone. That enabled me to fund a new computer, plus change, which improved the overall quality of my life quite a bit, and the extra funds came in handy to replace the rear speakers which I needed to do a few weeks back.
Heh, I must sound like I'm griping; not really, I'd love the Naim A/V solution - but I just wish it wasn't so expensive, as the results for the outlay don't measure up to what can be achieved with Naim in two channel IMHO.
One day, I'd like to do the all Naim A/V if possible, however going active with my two channel system is a greater priority for me. In the meantime, I hope to add an Access centre, and a sub when funds allow, which will complete the setup.
One thing I do like about the Sony though, albeit at first I thought it might be a gimmick, is the flexibility and tailoring of sound the processor allows. Before finalising a purchase, I downloaded all the instruction manuals for the various models I was interested in, which was quite telling in the way that a sales brochure is not.
The unit has a 32bit SHARC processor, which does the main decoding for DD, DTS etc, plus two more Sony 32bit LSI's. One of these adds the so called Cinema modes, which appears to be basically digital reverb - supposedly the acoustics of various Sony mixing theatres, and the other applies a form of mixing/altering of phase etc, so as to create the impression of extra rear speakers, (up to five) wrapped around the sides at an angle of 30 degrees.
Additionaly, there is a parametric equaliser for each channel, and one can also adjust sound fields for sundry items such as wall hardness, position of rear speakers re height, and horizontal angle from the listening seat.
Very surprisingly, it all works exceptionally well.
True, the best sound overall, is auto format decode, i.e. 'direct' with no sound processing, however the sound fields whilst trading off slight softening of detail, and transient edge definition, offer a much more enveloping sense of wrap and ambience that can be quite beguiling on the right material.
I have to remind myself that the aim here is to recreate a movie theatre experience, not put one in a concert hall, AND one is dealing with a lossy compression system sound wise, so in that context, the sound modes make a lot of sense and work very well.
Certainly, whilst not up with the Naim as regards overall resolution, rythmn, and microdynamics, the ability of the Sony to recreate the impression of a large theatre space is comfortably ahead. Whether that is important or not is personal taste I guess, but personally I like the big ambient sound field and the sense of extra involvement it brings.
Anyway, end of rave - goodness, I'm in danger of turning into a Sony fanboy
Warmest Regards
John...
Populist thinking exalts the simplistic and the ordinary
Well I am at a loss to understand the channel reversal scenario as well, so can offer little there unfortunately.
The Sony A/V processor and amp both use 'star earthing' similar to Naim, and hum has not been a problem, thank goodness.
Heh, I think we're all perfectionists in one way or another, and undoubtedly the all Naim route is the ultimate way to go, however Naim, as with other UK manufacturers are a bit up against it cost wise in some overseas markets given rate of exchange, import duties etc, compared to equipment where the currency exchange etc is more favourable.
My Sony DVD, A/V processor, and 5 channel amp. came in at just under half the AUS $$ required to fund an AV2/175 alone. That enabled me to fund a new computer, plus change, which improved the overall quality of my life quite a bit, and the extra funds came in handy to replace the rear speakers which I needed to do a few weeks back.
Heh, I must sound like I'm griping; not really, I'd love the Naim A/V solution - but I just wish it wasn't so expensive, as the results for the outlay don't measure up to what can be achieved with Naim in two channel IMHO.
One day, I'd like to do the all Naim A/V if possible, however going active with my two channel system is a greater priority for me. In the meantime, I hope to add an Access centre, and a sub when funds allow, which will complete the setup.
One thing I do like about the Sony though, albeit at first I thought it might be a gimmick, is the flexibility and tailoring of sound the processor allows. Before finalising a purchase, I downloaded all the instruction manuals for the various models I was interested in, which was quite telling in the way that a sales brochure is not.
The unit has a 32bit SHARC processor, which does the main decoding for DD, DTS etc, plus two more Sony 32bit LSI's. One of these adds the so called Cinema modes, which appears to be basically digital reverb - supposedly the acoustics of various Sony mixing theatres, and the other applies a form of mixing/altering of phase etc, so as to create the impression of extra rear speakers, (up to five) wrapped around the sides at an angle of 30 degrees.
Additionaly, there is a parametric equaliser for each channel, and one can also adjust sound fields for sundry items such as wall hardness, position of rear speakers re height, and horizontal angle from the listening seat.
Very surprisingly, it all works exceptionally well.
True, the best sound overall, is auto format decode, i.e. 'direct' with no sound processing, however the sound fields whilst trading off slight softening of detail, and transient edge definition, offer a much more enveloping sense of wrap and ambience that can be quite beguiling on the right material.
I have to remind myself that the aim here is to recreate a movie theatre experience, not put one in a concert hall, AND one is dealing with a lossy compression system sound wise, so in that context, the sound modes make a lot of sense and work very well.
Certainly, whilst not up with the Naim as regards overall resolution, rythmn, and microdynamics, the ability of the Sony to recreate the impression of a large theatre space is comfortably ahead. Whether that is important or not is personal taste I guess, but personally I like the big ambient sound field and the sense of extra involvement it brings.
Anyway, end of rave - goodness, I'm in danger of turning into a Sony fanboy
Warmest Regards
John...
Populist thinking exalts the simplistic and the ordinary
Hello All
Geoff, very interested to hear of your experiments and conclusions re using the 150 to drive your rears v's the Sony amps. It's great to hear some comments from another fellow Naimee who also has gone down the Sony ES route re adding on A/V capabilities, as up to now I have not known anyone else who has done this Naim/Sony A/V combo.
Yes, I too like the Cinema modes - mainly I use Cinema B, or sometimes A, and for TV use etc, usually one of the Virtual sound fields.
However, if I'm playing 'demo' material, and want the last word in speed, focus, grip etc, I usually go with 'auto format decode'
I agree wholeheartedly with your comments re a center speaker, but overall I do find it a contentious issue, as in 'it all depends'
If I, have the 'hotseat' then arguably a center contributes nothing re improving localisation of dialogue. Conversely, if sitting off to one side, then yes it does.
However, from other set-ups I've heard, and via experimenting, I think a matching center is if not critical, certainly most desirable, re tonal timbre matching, and phase, transient response etc. Placement too is important, and can be an issue depending upon room constraints.
The other thing I feel makes a matching center speaker desirable, is that I find there is always a slight penalty to pay re transient edge definition, slight softening/masking of detail etc, whenever one uses DSP. I notice this when using the sound fields v's auto format decode, i.e. direct with no extra S/F processing. However, I also notice the same effect when using DSP to reroute signal to other speakers.
For example I set my rears to large, even though they only go down to around 48Hz or so. If I engage bass redirection to re-route the bass from the rears to the fronts, (which is done as I understand it by DSP) whilst that improves the overall mid to lower bass noticeably, it also softens the focus of the dialogue, and the aforementioned transient edges of sounds, clarity of detail etc.
Hence, given the tradeoff, I prefer leaving them set to large all round.
Of course, as I do not have a sub or center as yet, I have to make recourse to DSP signal re-routing to split the center into the L&R front channels, whereas I think a centre channel would improve things by obviating the need for such DSP signal manipulation. However, I catagorically do not like mismatched centers, as they take away more than they give IMHO from various set-ups I've heard.
Hence, I will be going for an Naim Access when funds allow.
Hope this helps a bit re the thorny question of center speakers
Warmest Regards
John...
Populist thinking exalts the simplistic and the ordinary
Geoff, very interested to hear of your experiments and conclusions re using the 150 to drive your rears v's the Sony amps. It's great to hear some comments from another fellow Naimee
who also has gone down the Sony ES route re adding on A/V capabilities, as up to now I have not known anyone else who has done this Naim/Sony A/V combo.Yes, I too like the Cinema modes - mainly I use Cinema B, or sometimes A, and for TV use etc, usually one of the Virtual sound fields.
However, if I'm playing 'demo' material, and want the last word in speed, focus, grip etc, I usually go with 'auto format decode'
I agree wholeheartedly with your comments re a center speaker, but overall I do find it a contentious issue, as in 'it all depends'
If I, have the 'hotseat' then arguably a center contributes nothing re improving localisation of dialogue. Conversely, if sitting off to one side, then yes it does.
However, from other set-ups I've heard, and via experimenting, I think a matching center is if not critical, certainly most desirable, re tonal timbre matching, and phase, transient response etc. Placement too is important, and can be an issue depending upon room constraints.
The other thing I feel makes a matching center speaker desirable, is that I find there is always a slight penalty to pay re transient edge definition, slight softening/masking of detail etc, whenever one uses DSP. I notice this when using the sound fields v's auto format decode, i.e. direct with no extra S/F processing. However, I also notice the same effect when using DSP to reroute signal to other speakers.
For example I set my rears to large, even though they only go down to around 48Hz or so. If I engage bass redirection to re-route the bass from the rears to the fronts, (which is done as I understand it by DSP) whilst that improves the overall mid to lower bass noticeably, it also softens the focus of the dialogue, and the aforementioned transient edges of sounds, clarity of detail etc.
Hence, given the tradeoff, I prefer leaving them set to large all round.
Of course, as I do not have a sub or center as yet, I have to make recourse to DSP signal re-routing to split the center into the L&R front channels, whereas I think a centre channel would improve things by obviating the need for such DSP signal manipulation. However, I catagorically do not like mismatched centers, as they take away more than they give IMHO from various set-ups I've heard.
Hence, I will be going for an Naim Access when funds allow.
Hope this helps a bit re the thorny question of center speakers
Warmest Regards
John...
Populist thinking exalts the simplistic and the ordinary