Remembering the Battle Of Britain

My birthday is Battle of Britain day.

It cannot be stressed how much these young men were needed and indeed how much they gave. It is also worth remembering that they were not alone and many of the support staff ,with out which they would not have been able to fight,too lost many personnel.

Unfortunately more and more these anniversaries and memories of such things as the Holocaust will be forced out of the minds of people by others who react to the possibility that these subjects might "upset" certain" sections of our communities.
The sooner these things are forgotten the sooner they will happen again.

H

Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. (George Santayana)

Dear Howard,

What the series of films really emphasised was just how much of a team effort the whole Battle was. From the 30,000 people who daily manned the lookout posts with field glasses to the people who built and ran the RADAR, to the ladies who staffed the control centres, to the brilliant foresight of the RAF Leadership, Park and Dowding, who planned the whole strategy in advance, and steadfastly kept to the plan, and then the sharp end of the youngsters who piloted the Hurricanes and Spitfires.

I think it is the best visual narration that I have seen of the bigger picture, and this was nicely interspersed with the story of a modern day youngster getting his "nine hours" of Spitfire flying time, before the off.

One German was asked why the Spitfire was seemingly superior to the Messherschmit. He responded that the Spitfire was easy to fly and the German aircraft was not, so that the pilot shortages on both sides played to the advantage of the British. Of course the Germans started with much a better-trained corps of pilots with their experience in the Spanish Civil War and the early defeat of the Polish.

The impression was left of how close the moment was, and how on bad days there must have been doubts about whether the RAF would actually be defeated in the skies.

I quite agree that the modern tendency to Political Correctness, and offending people with the brutal facts of History, may mean that it becomes at least unfashionable or even unacceptable to remember what went before, so we can be careful to avoid the same disastrous road again.

ATB from George

for our tomorrow they gave there today,that should never,never be forgotten.

"When you get home tell themn of us and say
For your tomorrow, we gave our today"

Its the Kohima epitaph; very moving.

Thursday evening I heard this awesome, rumbling roar outside - it was a Lancaster and Hurricane flying at about 500 feet; amazing. The Spitfie ( Battle of Britain Memorial Flight ) was a mile or so away.

M

Without any obvious reason, I simply remember from time to time - probably because my old Norwegian grandfather was simply someone I had a great admiration and love for. He was of that generation who defended European and World freedom, and in a highly risky fashion under the circumstances. Thanks for sharing your remeberances.

ATB from George

At least twice a week, for years, I have walked or driven past the Spitfire and Hurricaine at the entrance of RAF Biggin Hill. In the course of my normal activities, not a pigrimage, but don't recall a single occasion when I have not been moved by the rememberance.

quote:

Unfortunately more and more these anniversaries and memories of such things as the Holocaust will be forced out of the minds of people by others who react to the possibility that these subjects might "upset" certain" sections of our communities.

Fortunately this isn't true. My daughter has done WWII pretty thoroughly at junior school and none of it, including the Holocaust will be forgotten. Also, the rest of Europe has this part of history very much alive in the minds of their youth - much more so than we do probably.
I really wouldn't worry too much about it being forgotten.
I would like to take my children to Auschwitz when they are older, but I'm not sure I could go again myself.

Ewan there were people (muslim activists mainly) campaigning to have teaching about The Holocaust removed from curricula of schools. It was upsetting them, they found it offensive or some such crap.
With a bit of luck this will fail but I have seen too many stupid PC actions installed as some sort of new age thinking.

quote:

I would like to take my children to Auschwitz when they are older, but I'm not sure I could go again myself.

My wife and I went after seeing what a profound effect it had on our 2 children. It boggles the mind the "logic" of genocide on a mass production line way.

quote:

I would like to take my children to Auschwitz when they are older, but I'm not sure I could go again myself.

When I was in Krakow I was offered a trip to Auschwitz. I declined. I know something of what happened there from books, TV progammes and films and I don't think that visiting the site would add anything to the emotional impact of say, the TV programme a few years ago which showed scenes from the camp over a soundtrack of Gorecki's Symphony of Sorrowful Songs. That moved me to tears and should be repeated, preferably on Holocaust Day.
Ken

For me the tought of their courage & sacrifice is profoundly humbling.

yes,no greater sacrifice than to give your life for the greater good,puts the hi-fi into perspective.

Two obeservations.

'They shall not grow old, as we who are left grow old
Age shall not wither them, nor the years condemn
At the going down of the sun, and in the morning
We shall remember them'

-Laurence Binyon

Always makes me stop, not least for the reminder of how young most of these people were.

Secondly I have just re-read Vonnengut's Slaughterhouse 5, and been reminded of some of the less 'glorious' moments in our military history. War is never glamorous, and ordinary people tend to get in the way. Our Remembrance should always include the civilian dead as well as those in uniform.

Bruce

quote:

Originally posted by mike lacey:
"When you get home tell themn of us and say
For your tomorrow, we gave our today"

Its the Kohima epitaph; very moving.

Thursday evening I heard this awesome, rumbling roar outside - it was a Lancaster and Hurricane flying at about 500 feet; amazing. The Spitfie ( Battle of Britain Memorial Flight ) was a mile or so away.

M

My own feeling is that British men (and I'm sure women too!) are genetically hard-wired to melt at the unmistakable sound of RR Merlin engines!

St George's Day 2008 we had the BofB Flight doing a fly past over our little town. Three low passes - not only could you hear them you could smell those Merlins! And for the royal-watchers among you, HRH Prince William was in the Lanc.

James

Can we remember those who gave their lives on both 'sides'. I'm sure even the enemy pilots were terrified and their families distraught.

Tony

Dear Tony,

I cannot agree with your sentiment. A spade is a spade - evil is evil - and there may be a terror aspect involved for some of the German Nazi led military, even many, in being in some cases compelled to fight for a country that had been infested by a Nazi government, but no, fighting to defend that regime was unheroic from any standpoint.

Sorry to seem disagreeeable, but what was done by the German military in the name of patriotism was terrible.

I am sure that in the need to ensure victory some of what was done by the Allies was equally terrible, such as the incidents where Polish pilots [serving in the RAF] not only shot down German aircraft, but then returned to shoot the pilots and aircrews as they came to earth in the parachutes [very much as Germans did on occasion to Allied pilots], but unlike the sentimental English the Poles had no doubt about the need to win against Nazism at any cost. I know this also from my Norwegian grandfather. You fight with the Dragon and inevitably the blood of the Dragon must infect you to some extent.

I cannot spend a lot of time feeling grateful for the sacrifices of the Nazi led German military.

George

quote:

By KenM When I was in Krakow I was offered a trip to Auschwitz. I declined. I know something of what happened there from books, TV progammes and films and I don't think that visiting the site would add anything to the emotional impact of say, the TV programme a few years ago which showed scenes from the camp over a soundtrack of Gorecki's Symphony of Sorrowful Songs. That moved me to tears and should be repeated, preferably on Holocaust Day.
Ken

You are wrong! You can almost feel the evil there no "remote" viewing can bring that to you. Stand in front of a huge pile of suitcases,glasses,shoes,hair or even false limbs and not be extremely moved you can't imagine.

I've seen pictures of the Mona Lisa, the Pyramids and the Parthenon I'm really glad I went and saw them in person because those pictures didn't do them justice.

Howard

Dear Howard,

I completely agree.

Nothing can prepare a person for the impact a visit to a Death Camp will have on them.

A lot falls into perpective afterwards.

A visit to Majdanek Death Camp in Lublin, Eastern Poland.


We could have had them here as well if the Nazis had prevailed in the Battle Of Britain.

George

quote:

You are wrong! You can almost feel the evil there no "remote" viewing can bring that to you.

Howard,
Who are you to say that I am wrong? I described my own view on the matter. Your view may differ but like me, you are entitled to your opinion. Maybe your "remote viewing" was different from mine or maybe your reaction was different. Either way, to say so unequivocally that I am wrong is a little bit over the top.
Regards,
Ken

quote:

Originally posted by GFFJ:
Dear Tony,

I cannot agree with your sentiment. A spade is a spade - evil is evil - and there may be a terror aspect involved for some of the German Nazi led military, even many, in being in some cases compelled to fight for a country that had been infested by a Nazi government, but no, fighting to defend that regime was unheroic from any standpoint.

Sorry to seem disagreeeable, but what was done by the German military in the name of patriotism was terrible.

I am sure that in the need to ensure victory some of what was done by the Allies was equally terrible, such as the incidents where Polish pilots [serving in the RAF] not only shot down German aircraft, but then returned to shoot the pilots and aircrews as they came to earth in the parachutes [very much as Germans did on occasion to Allied pilots], but unlike the sentimental English the Poles had no doubt about the need to win against Nazism at any cost. I know this also from my Norwegian grandfather. You fight with the Dragon and inevitably the blood of the Dragon must infect you to some extent.

I cannot spend a lot of time feeling grateful for the sacrifices of the Nazi led German military.

George

George,

I know you are a thoughtful and compassionate man, and as such I find your sentiments difficult. A frightened kid in a uniform is just a frightened kid in a uniform; whatever colour it may be. The German army contained few who were idealistically 'evil' whatever their leadership. I also disagree that their motives were any less 'heroic' than ours. I could argue that war is never 'heroic' on any broad scale, whatever the actions of individuals. War is about lies and atrocities on both sides (such as Dresden et al). It could also be said that the actions of men fighting for any cause are equally 'heroic' on an individual basis. Each is placing their life in danger for a cause in which they believe, to protect their homes, friends and families or an ideology in which they have faith. Making a moral judgement of the 'justness' of that cause does not diminish individual bravery.

I find the romanticisation of WWII quite offensive. The Battle Of Britain seems to attract this more than any other event; the summer skies, elegant aircraft and youthful protagonists somehow remove us from the basic realities of legally-sanctioned killing. War is about shit and blood and pain, destruction and violence, hunger and fear. It is largely a suspension of basic human dignity. It all stinks. I lament the dead for their wasted lives, on all sides. As I said before I also lament the civilian dead, inevitably caught in any fight, and somehow mourned so much less than those in uniform.

I feel pretty strongly about war!

Bruce

Dear Bruce,

Thanks for your considered reply to the point I made.

I certainly don't romanticise the War, or even the Battle Of Britain. Remembering is remembering, and the need for such individual heroism among the horrendously murky business that warfare invariably is was and remains as trajic, as inevitable. I don't doubt that it is possible to find individual acts of heroism and humanity on both sides. But ...

I did mention that even the Battle Of Britain which was not exactly hand to hand "stare the man in the eyes before killing him" sort of fighting that Infantry sometimes have to face, still had some terrible asspects, such as shooting airmen in the air once they had abandoned their aircraft ...

I will try to explain why I hold the view about the Nazi War that I do this evening as it require more care than time allows now.

I did not expect that post to be a popular one, and I don't expect my reply to be less than a thorny one to consider.

ATB from George

George, your post may or may not be popular, but it is clearly honest.

My reaction to the 'romantic' notions of war is partly due by my nephew. At 17 he is obsessed by WWII and has been soaked in the literature and cinema of traditional heroism. I loaned him some books/films that touched on the dirtier side of war, the stupidity and the waste of it (The Naked and The Dead, Slaughterhouse 5, Catch 22, Downfall, The Thin Red Line etc) but discovered that his Dad (my brother) had removed them because he might find them too upsetting!

Bruce

Bruce,
I agree wholeheartedly. I was brought up during WW2. I remember my father leaving home in 1940 to join the army, I remeber the tail end of the London blitz and most of the Manchester blitz. We were told that Germans were evil monsters.
In 1944, the Germans launched a couple of V1 "flying bombs" against Manchester and I remember lying in bed, hearing the engines cut out and waiting for the explosions (though we had been told that you don't hear the one which kills you). Fortunately, all that they damaged was the embankment of the River Mersey. When I went to look at the damage I was surprised to see that it was being repaired by POW's and that they were not the frightening figures painted by our propaganda but ordinary young men, just like my uncles and cousins who served.
Hitler and his cronies were evil. We were led by Churchill who was also capable of things which would apparently prefer to forget. Like wanting the RAF use poison gas bombs on Kurdish and Aghan villages. Or his part in the firestorm bombing of Dresden. Hitler is rightly reviled. Churchill was recently voted Man of the Century or some such rubbish.
The armed forces (both regular and irregular) of all countries are fighting as patriots. They are all told that they have God on their side. They follow their orders and all too often commit great evils. Sadly, nothing has changed.
Ken