Remembering the Battle Of Britain

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Originally posted by KenM: They are all told that they have God on their side. They follow their orders and all too often commit great evils. Sadly, nothing has changed.
Ken

with all the media available to them now it always amazes me how todays young pilots ,soldiers ect, can believe the bullshit there fed and then proceed to go and bomb and murder 10s of thousands for god queen and country,i think god would have something to say about using his name for wholesale slaughter.

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Originally posted by KenM:
The armed forces (both regular and irregular) of all countries are fighting as patriots. They are all told that they have God on their side. They follow their orders and all too often commit great evils. Sadly, nothing has changed.
Ken

Men never die for flags
They die for politicians
The shadiest breed of the mental magicians.


The Goats. 1992

In war there are individual acts of bravery and brutality on all sides. However, anyone who believes the victory of the Allies over the Axis in World War II was anything but a great victory for civilization over true evil is a fool at best. That battle,the good versus evil in our nature, has been ongoing throughout history and goes on today.

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Originally posted by KenM:
and I don't think that visiting the site would add anything to the emotional impact of say, the TV programme a few years ago

Ken. I'll never be the same again. With respect, I too believe you are mistaken.
I almost feel that everyone should go at some time in their lives, but you need to be prepared and you need to be with someone. The full force hit me days after. You'll never hold your children as tight as you will after this experience.

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Originally posted by Clay Bingham:
In war there are individual acts of bravery and brutality on all sides. However, anyone who believes the victory of the Allies over the Axis in World War II was anything but a great victory for civilization over true evil is a fool at best. That battle,the good versus evil in our nature, has been ongoing throughout history and goes on today.

There is much that I could write in response to that (For example, wasn't that nice mass-murderer Josef Stalin on the side of the civilised?) but I'm not really debating the morals of Allies vs Axis, I'm just suggesting that reducing WWII to good v evil may reduce the respect we pay to the dead on the 'evil' side. I think that is a mistake. I think that the common men and women (in and out of uniform) on each side were just the same and deserve equal respect.

Bruce

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Churchill was recently voted Man of the Century or some such rubbish.

Hardly rubbish. Churchill was a win at all costs, self-righteous, sometimes cruel but smart bastard and if he hadn't kept his mouth shut when The King asked him to support Halifax in the role of PM, Britain would likely have gone on to appease and finally capitulate to Hitler as, at that time, nothing could stop the Germans. Except The Channel (and Hitler's own death wish). Yes he ordered 'terrible' things such as the Royal Navy attacking the French navy to prevent their fleet being taken by the Germans after they refused to sail to Britain or The Caribbean; sending men into an un-winnable campaign in Greece/Crete in the full knowledge that the Italians were so useless, the Germans would have to delay their planned assault on the Soviet Union (as discovered from enigma code breaking) to support them, taking them into the Russian winter which eventually lost them the war; he allowed the bombing of German cities, knowing that the Germans would then concentrate on ours as 'tit for tat', whether London, Coventry, Portsmouth, Plymouth, Swansea, Liverpool, Norwich, Exeter, York, Bath or Canterbury, most of which were completely destroyed but that let us carry on building tanks, planes, guns and bullets away from these population centre targets. And it was all of these which convinced the Americans that Britain would fight to the last and (albeit on their terms) send/lend us ships/intelligence/ammunition/food and push a few planes over the Canadian border before their hand was forced by Pearl Harbour. Without Churchill, if we were here at all, we'd be slaves.

I just had to check where this thread started!!

Tony

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I just had to check where this thread started!!

For a change it is still reasonably on track(ish).For this place that is!

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Originally posted by JamieWednesday:

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Churchill was recently voted Man of the Century or some such rubbish.

Hardly rubbish. Churchill was a win at all costs, self-righteous, sometimes cruel but smart bastard and if he hadn't kept his mouth shut when The King asked him to support Halifax in the role of PM, Britain would likely have gone on to appease and finally capitulate to Hitler as, at that time, nothing could stop the Germans. Except The Channel (and Hitler's own death wish). Yes he ordered 'terrible' things such as the Royal Navy attacking the French navy to prevent their fleet being taken by the Germans after they refused to sail to Britain or The Caribbean; sending men into an un-winnable campaign in Greece/Crete in the full knowledge that the Italians were so useless, the Germans would have to delay their planned assault on the Soviet Union (as discovered from enigma code breaking) to support them, taking them into the Russian winter which eventually lost them the war; he allowed the bombing of German cities, knowing that the Germans would then concentrate on ours as 'tit for tat', whether London, Coventry, Portsmouth, Plymouth, Swansea, Liverpool, Norwich, Exeter, York, Bath or Canterbury, most of which were completely destroyed but that let us carry on building tanks, planes, guns and bullets away from these population centre targets. And it was all of these which convinced the Americans that Britain would fight to the last and (albeit on their terms) send/lend us ships/intelligence/ammunition/food and push a few planes over the Canadian border before their hand was forced by Pearl Harbour. Without Churchill, if we were here at all, we'd be slaves.

An excellent summation of the reality that faced Churchill IMHO Jamie

....From what I have read about WC's life and times prior to WW2 I would admit to having a pretty dim view of his type of conservatism but even a pinko Guardian reading liberal like my good self can see his leadership throughout the war was absolutely crucial.

Nothing in life (or war) is ever very simple but Britain's stand against Nazi Germany was one of those rare occasions when it really was a case of (to all realistic intents and purposes) "good" versus "evil"

.....Surely no sane person could disagree?

Dear Bruce,

I was going to try to explain it, but really others have aired it in the meantime.

War is horrible, and more often than not the motivations for it are just as murky. But in this instance it really was very close to a defence of good against unmitigated evil. So much so that the reality of politics at the time meant the necessary alliance with the Soviets - who of course were part of the Nazi Axis when Germany invaded Poland in 1939, under the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact - was a forced condition of not loosing even if the countries of Europe would be sold out to the Russians by the Western Allies to pay for co-operation in the end.

I am always saddened, however by the so-called collateral damage - the death and suffering of non-combatant civilians, on whatever side in any War. These should equally never be forgotten in my view. The inhabitants of Dresden, just as much as those of Coventry, or Hiroshima for some examples. I am not giving equivalence to the horrors in these places by citing the examples, to be clear on that. What these example show as much as anything else is just what a vile business, even a "just" war by nature inevitably is.

Otherwise I think I have already said everything once about my view of the Nazi war machine earlier in the Thread.

The reality is that there are times in history where things can hang by a very thin thread, and one such was definitely not to loose in the Battle Of Britain. I think it might be seen, in a manner, as a sort of almost draw. What it did was cause the planned invasion of Britain to be abandoned rather than destroy either air force. But that hesitation allowed for a breathing space.

Thanks be for that. ATB from George

George

Nothing I can really take issue with there, and the place of the BoB in the history books is genuinely clear-although in truth the war would still have been lost without a number of other crucial interventions. I clearly am also grateful that the Nazis were defeated.

I waded into this because I feel strongly that we should not seem reluctant to afford equal respect to the German dead. I do think the reduction of WWII into 'good v evil' does a disservice to the ordinary men, women and children of the Axis powers. I see no reason to believe that these generations (in the case of Germany of almost identical racial and cultural origin) were in some way innately evil in a way that the Allies were not. I also fear that the evil unleashed by the Axis leadership through these people (not all reluctantly of course) is close to the surface in all of us. It is a hard question to ask of ourselves, but how otherwise do we explain the behaviour of a civilised nation so similar to our own? That is a chilling thought, especially when the Holocaust comes into consideration. Yet genocides have been comitted by mankind throughout the globe, throughout the generations, and they continue now.

My desire is to seperate the politics of the Axis intentions from the fate of the ordinary people who died on each side.

I shall let this thread rest now having hopefully expressed myself clearly.

Bruce

These WW2 threads always throw up some interesting views but I am constantly amazed at the polarisation around the European theatre.

Yes, the Battle of Britain was important but how many people remember Kohima? 4000 casualties on the Allied side, the battle of the tennis courts?

No wonder 14th Army considered themselves the Forgotten Army.

Living in Kent obviously exposes one to far more reminders of the Battle of Britain than other aspects of WWII. Many village pubs and churches are full of momentos and artifacts, and the names of the airfields; Kenley,Manston,West Malling, Hawkinge, Detling, Biggin etc. (and you should see some of the adverts we get for Spitfire ale round here, certainly not PC.)
Kohima seems a long way away, but probably all the more scary for that to the poor kids who were sent there.

BTW. my wife teaches German in a comprehensive in Biggin Hill, and the anti-german prejudice she encounters from many of the kids and parents is astonishing.

Huwge

You have a platform so please tell us about Kohima and the tennis courts.

From Wikipedia:

In 1944 during World War II the Battle of Kohima along with the simultaneous Battle of Imphal was the turning point in the Burma Campaign. For the first time in South-East Asia the Japanese lost the initiative to the Allies which they then retained until the end of the war. This hand-to-hand battle and slaughter prevented the Japanese from gaining a high base from which they might next roll across the extensive flatlands of India like a juggernaut. [Source - Bert Sim, Mosstodloch, Aberdeenshire, Scotland: Pipe Major of the Gordon Highlanders at Kohima: his home is named "Kohima." -- RJWilliams, Slingerlands, NY/USA]

Kohima has a large cemetery for the Allied war dead maintained by the Commonwealth Graves Commission. The cemetery lies on the slopes of Garrison Hill, in what was once the Deputy Commissioner's tennis court which was the scene of intense fighting. The epitaph carved on the memorial of the 2nd British Division in the cemetery

“ When You Go Home, Tell Them Of Us And Say,
For Your Tomorrow, We Gave Our Today ”

has become world-famous as the Kohima poem. The verse is attributed to John Maxwell Edmonds (1875 -1958), and is thought to have been inspired by the epitaph written by Simonides to honour the Greek who fell at the Battle of Thermopylae in 480 BC.[1]

Tony

Derek,

I think there is not much to add to the information from Tony. This was warfare at its most primal and very up close and personal, the length of a tennis court the maximum distance between the combatants. No glamour, no dependency on technology, backs against the wall, old-fashioned eyeball to eyeball kill or be killed - very medieval.

But it happened a long way away and out of the sight of the majority.

I wouldn't have known about it but for the Burma Stars in my family and they certainly didn't talk about it.

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I wouldn't have known about it but for the Burma Stars in my family and they certainly didn't talk about it.

Guys with Africa and Italy stars(my dad and an uncle) did not say much either. I gave up as a youngster trying to get anything out of them, apart from a couple of non combat stories. I think it was still too painful an experience 20 years after the facts.

Common theme here. Both my Grandfathers had very different wars.

One was in the BEF in northern France, went through the Dunkirk evacuation, fought in the desert, got wounded, recovered amd stationed in Iceland(!) and then fought in Europe again after D-Day. Survived. But he didn't talk about it much either, apart from one story showing he had more respect for the German soldiers he was fighting (if not their management..!) than he did some of the Americans (sorry guys). He and his comrades hated the Japanese though (sorry again) for their attitudes to warfare, even though he wasn't in that theatre.

My other Grandfather was a very different type and had a very different war. An engineer, mainly at home in the UK, although visiting many different theatres (behind our lines) inspecting what his team's stuff did in the field. Among other things he was involved in getting tanks across rivers and once drove his modified tank accross the bed of the Thames - please don't ask how, I have no idea. He actually had great respect for the German engineers (a great Daimler fan) and knew one or two from his pre-war days, but being from Leicester, via Sheffield and of German Grandparents(!) had complete contempt for the Command (like everyone else) and took his war personally as a means of helping to defeat the bigger German War Machine, rather than the men themselves. Funny thing is he actually did visit the Japanese theatre and he, although a trained, methodical, rational, straight ahead engineer type, slightly up himself kinda fella, who would often be contrary just to see the reaction he got(!) had nothing but loathing for the Japanese ever after. It's about the only thing they both agreed on. Both were fine with me buying German cars but when my dad got a Honda Accord - Oooooohh...that did not go down well!

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Both were fine with me buying German cars but when my dad got a Honda Accord - Oooooohh...that did not go down well!

Brilliant!! Like my grandfather seeing Trevor McDonald reading the news for the first time!
Didn't watch ITV for years after.

Tony

And still we produce these brave guys: GRENADE!!

I can't imagine how many beers his muckers owe him.

Tony

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Originally posted by Huwge:

I wouldn't have known about it but for the Burma Stars in my family and they certainly didn't talk about it.

my dad was in the 14th army in Burma and he would never talk about it no matter how much i asked,i always wondered why,i often felt very sad for him as i now it troubled him deeply.

OK, on a lighter note, remember these ads..?

Thinking, and it good to be reminded, of the War in the East, I had one friend who was a Veterinary Surgeon, who was captured by the Japanese. He never spoke one word about the experience. Not one. His wife absolutely forbade anyone to mention it in front of him.

There was not one single item of Japanese origin in the house, and the only time I ever heard of him expressing a view on it was through one of his sons, when a neighbour mine of similar generation bought a Datsun car. Not approved of. The effect of his treatment left permanent mental scars, and he committed suicide after one of his recurring bouts of depression. It was devastating for all concerned.

George

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Originally posted by Bruce Woodhouse:
George,

I know you are a thoughtful and compassionate man, and as such I find your sentiments difficult. A frightened kid in a uniform is just a frightened kid in a uniform; whatever colour it may be. The German army contained few who were idealistically 'evil' whatever their leadership. I also disagree that their motives were any less 'heroic' than ours.

I am somewhat astonished by these comments.

To say that the Wehrmacht, SS et al contained few idealistically evil men is simply untenable. Ask the inhabitants of Lidice, Katyn, Russia, Czechoslovakia, Warsaw, Bergen Belsen... the list goes on. There would be some credibility in the suggestion that not all German soldiers where evil but to suggest otherwise is naive revisionism. The motives of Nazi Germany included the extinction of Europen Jewry - the "Final Solution" - the murder of Gypsies, gays, the disabled, communists...

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War is about lies and atrocities on both sides (such as Dresden et al).

WW2 was fought to stop a vile evil. The fact that the Allies carried out some horrific acts does not diminish that stark fact. There was no Allied equivalent of the Ghettos, of the death and Labour camps, of the murder of civilans for eg. the killing of Hetdrich.

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I find the romanticisation of WWII quite offensive. The Battle Of Britain seems to attract this more than any other event; the summer skies, elegant aircraft and youthful protagonists somehow remove us from the basic realities of legally-sanctioned killing.

The Battle of Britain was about the survival not just of the UK but of Western Democracy. If it had not been for the sacrifices of "The Few", pretty much the whole of Europe would have been under Nazi rule from about 1940. Nobody can possibly pretend to be naware of what it would mean to be in a flaming aircraft hoping that you will soon hit the ground and die to stop the agony of being burned alive

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I feel pretty strongly about war!

Bruce

Not as strongly as the widows and families of those who died fighting tyranny; of the people of Europe that suffered under the Nazi jackboot; of the inhabitants of Nanking, etc etc etc.

If it was not for those who offered their all, you would not be able to comment as you have.

Dear Mike,

I only knew three men involved in this. One Norwegian who was my grandfather, my veterinary friend who committed suicide, and my eldest Englsih uncle [1920- 2004].

My conclusion from their reaction, and reading history, is that we must be grateful for the bravery and incredible sacrifice, and for a certain amount of luck in terms of the Axis' leadership's madness.

Remembering the collateral civilian losses on both sides, and the heroic military losses on the side that opposed Medieval Tyrrany seems reasonable to me.

George