Great J*** Trumpet Players

quote:

Originally posted by fred simon:
Speaking of Kenny Wheeler, I can't go without giving my highest recommendation to one of the greatest jazz (or any kind of music) albums of all time, the classic Gnu High, with a stellar quartet featuring Keith Jarrett, Dave Holland, and Jack DeJohnette ... incredible players playing Wheeler's incredible compositions ... anyone serious about jazz should absolutely not miss this one!

All best,
Fred

Agree

does anyone else on the forum remember Don Ellis and his quarter-tone trumpet?

any manyard ferguson fans out there, and his performance of "the trumpet" on stan kenton's "City of Glass"?

Two pages and no Donald Byrd ? check out Byrd In Hand on Blue Note

I am a huge fan of Miles Davis where his bandleading skills, his contribution to the development of jazz and his mentorship of other great musical talents are concerned, and he was obviously a very accomplished trumpeter as well. However, to my ears he was not quite at the level of other truly great players of that instrument (like Clifford Brown or Lee Morgan) where loquaciousness, improvisational skills and sheer virtuosity are concerned. Fortunately, his ability to assemble truly great bands and to get the very best out of them are far more important to me than his individual skills on his instrument.

quote:

Originally posted by jazzfan:
I am a huge fan of Miles Davis ... he was obviously a very accomplished trumpeter as well. However, to my ears he was somewhat behind other truly great players of that instrument (like Clifford Brown or Lee Morgan) where loquaciousness, improvisational skills and sheer virtuosity are concerned.

Miles Davis is second to no one as a trumpet player, forgiving the occasional slips of intonation. Lee Morgan virtually plays every note out of tune on "The Sidewinder" - pull out that tuning slide ! :-)

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:
Miles Davis is second to no one as a trumpet player, forgiving the occasional slips of intonation. Lee Morgan virtually plays every note out of tune on "The Sidewinder" - pull out that tuning slide ! :-)

Although SideWinder is his most popular (and possibly most commercially successful?) album, it isn't really one of my favourites. I personally prefer him on other outings like "LeeWay" or "Cornbread" or even his contribution as a sideman on Coltrane's "Blue Train" where I think his performances were truly outstanding, especially his solo on "Moment's Notice".

By the way, I also agree with the mention of Kenny Dorham in this list - he appears not to have been given the recognition he deserved, for one reason or another. Fats Navarro was another trumpeter worthy of serious consideration here, IMV. And Louis Armstrong probably should (IMV again) be mentioned before anyone else for his pioneering of the role of individual improvisation in jazz and his virtuosity on the instrument.

quote:

Originally posted by jazzfan:

However, to my ears [Miles] was not quite at the level of other truly great players of that instrument (like Clifford Brown or Lee Morgan) where loquaciousness, improvisational skills and sheer virtuosity are concerned.

Seems to me that your argument here is based on an inherent contradiction ... it is precisely that Miles eschewed loquaciousness and virtuosity that made him one of the greatest trumpet players.

It was his use of space, of subtle gesture, his focus on tone, and his contention that it was what one didn't play that was as important as what one did play. This is very much in keeping with a quote attributed to composer Claude Debussy, "Music is the space between the notes," and to be sure, Miles' aesthetic had much in common with French Impressionism. By the way, most of the European trumpeters/flügelhornists mentioned earlier in this thread owe a debt to Miles in this regard.

All best,
Fred

Fred - I agree that his style was more oriented towards subtlety and understatement than those of most of his contemporaries, and that this worked brilliantly in certain settings (the tune Mademoiselle Mabry on Filles De Kilimanjaro comes to mind as a stunningly beautiful example of this).

But I would also contend that, in other situations with more up-tempo tunes in which his bandmates were displaying superbly lyrical skills (John Coltrane in the first quintet, for example), Miles' contribution in terms of his level of individual improvisation and eloquence was not quite at the level of the others. In other words, while some other great trumpeters could adapt their styles to different situations and play with either emotion and understatement or with blistering speed and virtuosity , I don't feel that Miles had quite the same versatility.

But please don't get me wrong - I would not contend that he was not a great musician, bandleader, composer, visionary, etc. - it's just that I would maybe not place him in the ranks of the really, really great trumpeters where sheer skill and virtuosity are concerned.

Just my opinion, based not on any expert musical knowledge, but the experience of having spent more hours than I can remember listening to and being enthralled by these great musicians.

quote:

Originally posted by jazzfan:

... it's just that I would maybe not place [Miles] in the ranks of the really, really great trumpeters where sheer skill and virtuosity are concerned.

Each to his own, of course ... there's equal value in virtuosity and in understatement. To my ears, the "really, really great trumpeters" include champions of each. Both approaches take equal amounts of sheer skill, but of differing types. Loquacious virtuosity is not necessarily the ultimate in musical achievement.

Miles played in ever changing contexts, from impressionist, acoustic modal moods to ferocious psychedelic funk, yet always sounded like himself because he had conjured the context, he invented the dialect.

Finally, he absolutely did play both with emotion and understatement, as well as with velocity and virtuosity ... there are many recorded examples of each.

quote:

Miles' contribution in terms of his level of individual improvisation and eloquence was not quite at the level of the others

I really disagree. I think his level of individual improvisation and eloquence was not only on equal par with the others (Coltrane, et al), but set the tone for all as well.

Best,
Fred

Fred:

After reading your reply, I was idly reading Miles' entry in Wikipedia and, while this is all a matter of opinion and Wikipedia is not necessarily the ultimate authority on anything, I was interested to read the following (third paragraph from the top):

As a trumpeter, Davis had a pure, round sound but also an unusual freedom of articulation and pitch. He was known for favoring a low register and for a minimalist playing style, but was also capable of highly complex and technically demanding trumpet work. This said, Davis was never a virtuoso of his instrument, and, on the ground of sheer technique, he was inferior to many prominent trumpet players of his era. He made up for these shortcomings by concentrating on the melodic quality and lyricism of his performances, to the point of becoming known as a specialist in ballads, a province where trumpet players were seldom found, up to that point.

I guess this is what I have been trying to say in my own inelegant way. As you have said though, each to his own.

Regards,

Michael

Hi Michael,

You expressed yourself very well; I understood your point ... I just disagree with its premise.

The crux of the matter is in the assumption that sheer technique is the ultimate in musical expression. Miles may have been inferior to other players in terms of pure athletic virtuosity, but many of those players were inferior to Miles in regards to melodic quality and lyricism.

It is not a given absolute that athletic virtuosity, rather than emotive lyricism, is the ideal toward which to strive. Precious few musicians truly excel in both; Keith Jarrett is one who comes to mind.

After that, as we agree, it comes down to personal taste, with which no one may argue.

One other point to consider is that there is technique, and then there is technique. The technique required to execute with high velocity and great accuracy and power is one kind of technique; the technique required to coax a subtle yet devastatingly emotive murmur from one's instrument is quite different, but no less demanding.

Finally, among musicians there is a widely accepted definition of technique: the ability to sufficiently execute what one hears in one's head. In this, Miles succeeded as well as anyone.

All best,
Fred

Fred:

I agree with everything you have said above, except that I would not classify the two alternative styles of making music as "athletic virtuosity" as opposed to "emotive lyricism". There seems to be an implicit assumption that the former is somehow less emotionally satisying to listen to and that it somehow represents merely an exhibition of virtuosity for its own sake rather than a genuine attempt to engage the listener from an emotional viewpoint (maybe I'm wrong in this interpretation - if so, I apologize).

I fully agree that both styles are equally demanding but would also contend that they are equally capable of tremendous emotive communication. In fact, I have found that an awful lot (maybe most) of the music that is most emotionally engaging to me involves playing at a high speed while maintaining the basic melodic structure of the tune and adding improvisations that somehow enhance that melody. It is in this area that I sometimes felt that Miles was not quite at the level of some of his fellow performers even though I am confident that he played a central role in inspiring the others to make the most of their incredible talents.

I just feel that to be considered a genuine virtuoso at one's instrument, it is necessary to show the versatility to handle both styles of playing with high levels of skill and, while Miles was always superb when it came to tunes (e.g. ballads) that allowed for understatement and a certain sparseness of expression, he didn't always quite come up to the same level in other settings.

But, as you say, this is all a matter of taste and we can certainly agree that, all things considered, his overall contribution to jazz music (maybe he would say all forms of music) is virtually irreplaceable.

Regards,


Michael

quote:

I just feel that to be considered a genuine virtuoso at one's instrument, it is necessary to show the versatility to handle both styles of playing with high levels of skill and, while Miles was always superb when it came to tunes (e.g. ballads) that allowed for understatement and a certain sparseness of expression, he didn't always quite come up to the same level in other settings.

Michael...sorry but I have to disagree with this statement as a generality. There are numerous examples of totally different approaches to artistic expression in Jazz that clearly demonstrate virtuosity without necessarily requiring your implied 'need for speed'.

Would you say for example Bill Evans was any less a virtuoso in Jazz improvisation terms ( which is what matters) than Mr. "play all the notes in 60 seconds" Peterson. In a lot of cases I find these fast note sequences that some improvisers aspire to are part of a stock of 'learned' runs that they trot out again and again. Give me inventive musical lyricism anyday

regards
Geoff

Geoff:

I certainly agree that "fast note sequences that some improvisers aspire to [that] are part of a stock of 'learned' runs that they trot out again and again" do not demonstrate any worthwhile musical skill. That's why I referred above to "playing at a high speed while maintaining the basic melodic structure of the tune and adding improvisations that somehow enhance that melody" as my definition of the other style of playing that is equally important to me as a sign of a true virtuoso. To me, this type of playing is just as deserving of the description "inventive musical lyricism" as any other. By definition, continually improvising on and developing a melody cannot be described as trotting out a learned run again and again.

And yes, I look for a high level of skill in both styles (the one described above as well as the ability to express one's self effectively in slower tempo pieces) as a sign of genuine mastership of an instrument.

Regards,


Michael

Michael,
I believe Kenny Dorham is held in high regard, it's just he died so young, like many from that era, and hence his output is relatively small.
I'm glad no one's mentioned Chris Botti. ugh.
One of my fav jazz lps is Something Else by Cannonball Adderly, which Miles plays superbly on. If that's not great playing, I don't know what is.

quote:

Originally posted by jazzfan:
in other situations with more up-tempo tunes in which his bandmates were displaying superbly lyrical skills (John Coltrane in the first quintet, for example), Miles' contribution in terms of his level of individual improvisation and eloquence was not quite at the level of the others.

When Miles was a young man playing with Dizzy Gillespe and Charlie Parker, he had to play plenty of notes, and fast too. Everyone tried to play like that at the time. It got old after awhile. It started to sound dated. Then came "cool". Miles Davis and Gil Evens met up during the Charlie Parker / Dizzy Gillespe days.

I spent many hours listening to and learning to play Miles Davis solos, the first such attempt being "Porgy and Bess". No one had a better way with a phrase than Miles. It is so "organic", that it makes almost all those thousand note players sound like dinosaurs.

But it's true that Dizzy could play a couple thousand notes, and it always sounded like each note was necessary. The notes were always fundamental to the melodic rhythm in Dizzy's playing.

I don't think it's a bi-polar situation : technique on the one hand, and phrasing on the other. It's a little slippery.

Moods and feelings change, and that's what jazz is about, after all.

Soundsreal - I'm glad to hear that his talents are recognized at least in some quarters - it's just that he has a rather low key profile relative to that of other performers of his era, and I have found his music (both as a leader and as a sideman) to be highly enjoyable.

And yes - I certainly agree that Miles' performance on Something Else was ... well... something else altogether. It's one of my favourite albums too.