Bibilcal Swine?

I always assumed that:
1) The Jews' land was occupied by the Romans who had no aversion to pigs
2) Jesus was not in the heart of Jewish population at that time.
A very quick google search yields this link:
Matt 8:28; Mark 5:1; Luke 8:26
And he was in the region of Decapolis.

There were many demons cast out of this man, they called themselves "Legion".
Must have been far more serious than “The Exorcist” movie…

Happy Sunday.

David

quote:

Originally posted by Fredrik_Fiske:
Dear friends

A question that has perplexed me for over thirty years is why when Jesus cast a devil or of a man this devil entered a herd of swine (pigs) who then killed themselves by running in the lake.

Given that Jews don't eat pork, what were the pigs doing there?

I asked a friend, who works in the Cathedral here, and who is, I think, a Christian, even if I am hardly am, this question, and he was stumped, having never noted the strange juxtaposition of pigs in Jewish lands.

All the best from Fredrik

Fredrik,

There are so many inconsistancies and whopping contradictions in the Bible that sorting even a small percentage of them out would be a lifetimes work for little or no reward in my view.

I don't doubt the small collection of simplistic homilies attributed to 'Jesus' are of help and comfort to some but compared to the truly vast collection of profound and practical Buddhist scriptures and philosophy the new testament teachings are trivial, infantile and patronising. The old testament is about tribal warfare and a god who if he/she/it existed would be the biggest mass murderer in history. Why do people still bother reading it, this is the biggest biblical mystery in my view.

I do not doubt that sincere faith in the christian/judaic god can have great benefits for those who can make the connection but these blessings do not come from god or jesus (who dont exist and never have) rather they come through the application of heartful prayer which like meditation functions to purify the mind and thus purify our experience of the world which is never separate from our mind. Having experienced some benefit from our faith it is easy to think its all literally true and then seek to force our views on others which is increasingly happening all over the world by all religions except Buddhism which remains, as ever, the small quiet voice of reason in an increasingly polarised mad world. If people would stop relying on god, jesus or allah to make everything right for them like the perfect parent we never had and started to take responsibility for making our world right ourselves then the world would be a better place in my view.

Yours, (contentiously)

Erik

Hey perhaps its all a load of bullshit written by Enid Blighton's ancestors?

quote:

Originally posted by erik scothron:

quote:

Originally posted by Fredrik_Fiske:
Dear friends

A question that has perplexed me for over thirty years is why when Jesus cast a devil or of a man this devil entered a herd of swine (pigs) who then killed themselves by running in the lake.

Given that Jews don't eat pork, what were the pigs doing there?

I asked a friend, who works in the Cathedral here, and who is, I think, a Christian, even if I am hardly am, this question, and he was stumped, having never noted the strange juxtaposition of pigs in Jewish lands.

All the best from Fredrik

Fredrik,

There are so many inconsistancies and whopping contradictions in the Bible that sorting even a small percentage of them out would be a lifetimes work for little or no reward in my view.

I don't doubt the small collection of simplistic homilies attributed to 'Jesus' are of help and comfort to some but compared to the truly vast collection of profound and practical Buddhist scriptures and philosophy the new testament teachings are trivial, infantile and patronising. The old testament is about tribal warfare and a god who if he/she/it existed would be the biggest mass murderer in history. Why do people still bother reading it, this is the biggest biblical mystery in my view.

I do not doubt that sincere faith in the christian/judaic god can have great benefits for those who can make the connection but these blessings do not come from god or jesus (who dont exist and never have) rather they come through the application of heartful prayer which like meditation functions to purify the mind and thus purify our experience of the world which is never separate from our mind. Having experienced some benefit from our faith it is easy to think its all literally true and then seek to force our views on others which is increasingly happening all over the world by all religions except Buddhism which remains, as ever, the small quiet voice of reason in an increasingly polarised mad world. If people would stop relying on god, jesus or allah to make everything right for them like the perfect parent we never had and started to take responsibility for making our world right ourselves then the world would be a better place in my view.

Yours, (contentiously)

Erik

I think Naimdropper successfully highlighted that this is not a contradiction (i.e. the land was not only populated by Jews). Can you identify a few better contradictions rather than just saying "they are there"?

BTW Buddhism/Taoism offers great insight about the material world, however it won't tell you who to turn to when our time is up.

BTW, saying that God never exists is a bit like trying to say that something comes out of nothing. Also there is plenty of historical evidence from various sources that testify to the existance of Jesus.

Andrew

quote:

Originally posted by garyi:
Hey perhaps its all a load of bullshit written by Enid Blighton's ancestors?

Well I would not go so far as to say that. It is not ALL a load of bullshit, but some of it is of little or no value certainly but some of it is truly beautiful. I have many dear friends who are christians, jews, muslims or hindus and I am happy their faith gives them meaning and happy their faith encourages some moral discipline but I have little tolerance for them preaching at me or anyone else for that matter if there is no request to be preached to. I dont try to convert them (even my fiancee is a catholic and I am happy for her)so I dont like it if they try to convert me. They are like deluded salesmen trying to sell me a tortoise as a means of transport when I already have a horse and when they try to convince me my horse is the work of the devil I have to feel sorry for them as my only alternative is supreme contempt which would make me not much better than them.

Regards,

Erik (happy to be different)

Erik-
You have to at least partially agree that the old testament book of Proverbs is not about a bloodbath of "biblical" proportions but contains nuggets of highly practical behavioral insights that, if practiced by everyone (myself included!), would make the world a better place.
Check it out if you have not recently, it won't take much of your time. You could quote some for your catholic GF, she might dig it!
David

Dear Andrew,

'I think Naimdropper successfully highlighted that this is not a contradiction (i.e. the land was not only populated by Jews). Can you identify a few better contradictions rather than just saying "they are there"?'

I did not say that naimdropper contradicted anything. Nor do I necessarily believe him to be wrong.

'BTW Buddhism/Taoism offers great insight about the material world, however it won't tell you who to turn to when our time is up.'

This is spectacularly untrue. You have been massively misinformed. This is like saying that Chrisitans do not believe in the teachings of Jesus. What you say is massively and overwhelmingly incorrect.

'BTW, saying that God never exists is a bit like trying to say that something comes out of nothing.'

You have got that spectacularly round the wrong way - saying that god exists is exactly like saying something can come out of nothing. There is no such thing as a causeless effect and importantly no such thing as a first cause or a partless particle.

'Also there is plenty of historical evidence from various sources that testify to the existance of Jesus'

Actually there is precious little evidence but I admit their is some evidence for their having been a jesus the man. However, I meant there is NO evidence for Jesus being the son of god or being divine. None. No god - ergo no son of god.

The Buddhist refutations of the existence of a creator god use pristine crystal clear razor sharp irrufutable philosophical logic not blind faith or dubious scriptual references.

Regards,

Erik

quote:

Originally posted by NaimDropper:
Erik-
You have to at least partially agree that the old testament book of Proverbs is not about a bloodbath of "biblical" proportions but contains nuggets of highly practical behavioral insights that, if practiced by everyone (myself included!), would make the world a better place.
Check it out if you have not recently, it won't take much of your time. You could quote some for your catholic GF, she might dig it!
David

Of course I would agree. Actually if I seem to have led you to think otherwise I apologise. I have said there is much beauty in the bible (and much rubbish)- I have said I have no problem with people following any religion (just dont try and convert me or anyone else against their will or deny them the chance to practice what they wish)and i would certainly agree that practicing diligently any code of morals, especially turning the other cheek and doing to unto others would indeed make the world a better place (I do not nor have I ever disputed that)but you can add up all these teachings and they don't go as far as they do in Buddhism and that was my point.

Are you a Buddhist then?

Sorry, posted late.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tarquin Maynard-Portly:
Erik
'I know you are a practising Bhuddist, but to ctiticise and dismiss Judeo Christianity in the manner you attempt deserves the use of the three letters "IMO", ( IMO).'

I thought I balanced my view by highlighting both good and bad. You are right of course, it is IMO absolutely. However, such is not the view of the increasingly loud and scary fundamentalists of both Christianity and Islam who believe it is not mere view but god given truth etc.

'You have also conveniently ignored the New Testament. ' I do not believe I did.

'The Sermon on the Mount should resonate with Bhuddists.'

It does. Buddhism just goes futher that's all. Way further. It says many if not all of what is in the sermon but it does in much more detail and goes much further in developing the concepts /values and offers many types of practices which can be developed according to the capacities of different people. Which is why it is sad when Chritians bang on about it being the only way etc. They just don't know any better but I am not saying they don't know anything - far from it. Ditto that for all the major religions - there is room for all and a need for all. I do try to be accurate to say exactly what I think but it's all to easy to write in shothand and difficult to cover all the bases of possible confusion.

Regards,

Erik

As someone who was brought up Christian and went to a Christian School with a significant Jewish population i personally do not practice a religion.

Looking at the Bible as a guide to life there is nowhere better to look than the 10 commandments.

You do not need to have a faith or religion to follow these.

In fact following these 10 simple guidelines would make the world a much better place.

It just seems a shame that the 3 religions who supposedly follow these seem to be at a conflict with these teachings.

I still believe that if there is a God then He She It has a hell of a sense of humour when it comes to us poor Humans.

regards David

quote:

Originally posted by Tarquin Maynard-Portly:

quote:

Originally posted by erik scothron:
The Buddhist refutations of the existence of a creator god use pristine crystal clear razor sharp irrufutable philosophical logic not blind faith or dubious scriptual references.

Regards,

Erik

Go on!

M

Mike,

If, and only if, you are genuinely interested in this I will consider posting the refutations (which are not taught to beginners or taught as a means of putting other religions down but taught to clarify what ultimate reality is and never has anything to say about what is in the bible as it is not relevant) but it will take work to put something together and unless you have some formal training in philosophical discourse and you are prepared to put some serious thinking into the subject it will be very difficult to make anything out of it. This is because it is important to define terms and the definitions have to be understood and adhered to or how can you be sure your understanding of a word or term is the same as mine? This takes time. It's not really a subject for a forum - even a beginners guide would take up reams of pages of difficult conceptual terrain. Crystal clear and razor sharp it may be but spectaclarly obvious to the philosophical layman it ain't and that is no contradiction nor is that observation meant to be patronising in any way. You know perhaps better than I that those who merely posture invite 'lock on' from those who are trained to spot a fraud or the incompetant and I think you know enough about me that I am hardly likely to be of that ilk and thus know that if called upon to deliver on a promise will do so. If You are genuinely interested, as I say, I don't mind to write something but I can't knock it all together in 10 mins so I would rather be spared the effort if you are only idly challenging me.

Regards,

Erik

Erik-
Just curious: How do you balance the principles of Buddhism against the cravings of owning and upgrading your Naim sistem?
I'm being serious here. The craving of better sound leads you to the path of these beautiful and expensive possessions (that always want to be supplanted by newer, more beautiful models) and would lead to suffering.
I think most folk that live a self-examined life are given pause when they consider that the cost of their sistems, if applied properly, could ease the suffering of others.
Surely you love music, we all do. But owning some of the finest kit on the planet must get in the way of enlightenment.
David

I know several highly educated people who'd approve of me calling them atheist christians.
I didn't notice much appreciation for the old testament though. Except for Job maybe.

quote:

Originally posted by DAVOhorn:
As someone who was brought up Christian and went to a Christian School with a significant Jewish population i personally do not practice a religion.

Looking at the Bible as a guide to life there is nowhere better to look than the 10 commandments.

You do not need to have a faith or religion to follow these.

In fact following these 10 simple guidelines would make the world a much better place.

It just seems a shame that the 3 religions who supposedly follow these seem to be at a conflict with these teachings.

I still believe that if there is a God then He She It has a hell of a sense of humour when it comes to us poor Humans.

regards David

David,

Agreed.

I guess my seemingly contradictory position is that I do genuinely believe that if the world was full of true christians practicing the real teachings of Jesus then the world would be a better place. However, I genuinely believe the same is equally true if the world were full of devout Jews, or devout moslems or devout hindus although I doubt any can deliver on their ultimate promise and this is particularly true of chrisitanity which has no clear esoteric tradition and is, in my view, the bottom of the spiritual ladder. Interestingly there have been some christian mystics whom I believe to have been highly realised individuals like Meister Eckhardt for example but they have been treated with much suspicion by the church. Even a cursory reading of the reports into the Popes last hours show that he was not a realised being who had control over his death process but I know many Buddhists who do!

Also although I believe that Buddhism is a more complete path it is not for everyone. Buddhism may be medicine for the mind but is a medicine powerful if not taken? How efficacious is any medicine that is not actually taken but left sitting on a shelf? Also I would rather be a good Christian than a bad Buddhist. Christian...Buddhist....just labels, mere name...what does it prove? Nothing in itself. It is what goes on in the heart and mind that counts not silly labels.

I agree that the three religions who supposedly follow the 10 commandments don't actually follow them to the letter but seek to twist their meaning 'thou shalt not kill' (which ought to apply to animals as the commandment is not qualified)is routinely translated in the USA as 'thou shalt not murder'as it is expedient to indulge in state sponsored executions on an industrial scale in Iraq with a clear conscience. Madness, complete madness (IMO)

Regards,

Erik

quote:

Originally posted by NaimDropper:
Erik-
Just curious: How do you balance the principles of Buddhism against the cravings of owning and upgrading your Naim sistem?
I'm being serious here. The craving of better sound leads you to the path of these beautiful and expensive possessions (that always want to be supplanted by newer, more beautiful models) and would lead to suffering.
I think most folk that live a self-examined life are given pause when they consider that the cost of their sistems, if applied properly, could ease the suffering of others.
Surely you love music, we all do. But owning some of the finest kit on the planet must get in the way of enlightenment.
David

Haha I am somewhat ahead of you on this as some time ago I wrote several posts on a thread about the constant need/desire to upgrade versus practising being content with what one has and also about justifying the buying of outrageously expensive set ups such as the 555/520/3/x500/DBL when people are starving to death etc.

I have a friend who thought it weird I owned a Range Rover and a Yamaha R1 whilst living in a Buddhist monastery but it is not the owning that is the problem it is the attachment to or desiring of that is the problem and this of course, as you rightly point out would be a hindrence to enlightment but Rome was not built in a day and I had to travel to work (to get money to stay in the monastery and to do retreats etc.)and a iifetimes practice cannot with the best will in the world be put into mere months - a foot in both worlds is better than both feet in the wrong world - I dont claim to be a saint. As for the Range Rover and R1 I don't have either now (or any type of replacement therof)and I felt little or no pang in our parting. All meetings end in partings as we say.

quote:

Originally posted by Tarquin Maynard-Portly:
Erik

I'm not idly challenging you, I respect you far too much for that. If it would take up a great deal of time then no worries, but FWIW I was considered myself to be a practising Christian. I sat and thought about the fundamental principles of Christianity, and "logiced" my way out of believing.

That being said, some people whose intellects I greatly respect have become Christian of late.

Yours aye

Mike

Mike,

I would be interested in how you logiced your way out. I will write something but its not easy - to explain A/ I have to write about B/ and to explain B/ I have to write about C/ and so on and before you know it you have a bad case of intelectual indigestion. I know I had when I first began to learn about this stuff. That's why I'm not being patronising. It gave me severe brain-ache.

Also I am not a Buddhist because of this refutation alone (far from it)as the refutation is only a small part of the philosophical part of Buddhism (I say philosophical because an acceptence of it's validity is in NO WAY dependent on having a faith in Buddhas or the religious aspects of Buddhism)rather I am a Buddhist because it works for me (as Christianity works for others - although I would debate the degree to which it works or appears to work)

I too know many people of greater intellect than I who are christians, all I can say is they have a connection with it that I do not and good luck to them says I - I just hate all the patronising twaddle (for so it seems to me)that some of them come out with. I respect their faith, I suspect I know more about how it functions than they and I suspect they need to 'invent' god to get them out of conceptual deep water but unless they specifically ask with a good motivation to learn more about Buddhism Iam happy to let them get on with whatever gives their lives meaning, and as long as they do likewise we all are happy.

Cheers Mike

quote:

a foot in both worlds is better than both feet in the wrong world

Well put, Erik!
I think you and I would get along just fine.

Mike, without the sacrifice would the gift have as much meaning?
It is a tough question to ponder, why would an all-powerful God subject himself/his son to that?

David

quote:

Originally posted by Tarquin Maynard-Portly:

quote:

Originally posted by erik scothron:

Mike,

I would be interested in how you logiced your way out.

Cheers Mike

Erik

One of the key beliefs of Christianity is that "God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, so that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life."

The key here is that Jesus dies on the Cross as, in the original sense of the word, a scapegoat for us. Our sins are put onto Him, he dies as punishment, our sins are gone.

I realised that death by crucifixion is pretty horrific. The Romans did it for effect. The disconnect fo me came when I started to wonder why somebody had to die in such an horrific manner, when a loving God could just forgive us individually. The process of accepting God / Christ into ones life should suffice, without the need for such suffering.

That ended it for me, Erik.

M

Im very familiar with that bit of John (4 isnt it?) anyway I never could fathom by what mechanism his dying could possibly save us from OUR sins - I have never found anyone who could explain it to me. They just repeat that he did (cos the bible said so etc)

Im whacked and have a headache - I will write more re. this later cos I think it is interesting.

All the best Mike,

Erik

Indeed we have an example from the HiFi Corner...
NANA has introduced a new AC power cord for $25US, they claim it is an improvement.
There is much skepticism, how can something that cheap (essentially no sacrifice) have any value?
OK, that was a bit lame.
Perhaps it is an example for the rest of us to sacrifice for others.
I don't know.
David

quote:

Originally posted by erik scothron:
Actually there is precious little evidence but I admit their is some evidence for their having been a jesus the man. However, I meant there is NO evidence for Jesus being the son of god or being divine. None. No god - ergo no son of god.
Erik

Dear Erik

The evidence for this lies in the lack of a body.

The usual explanation is that the body was taken and hidden by either the Jewish Sanhedren, the Roman authorities or the disciples. However, none of these stands up to scrutiny.

The early Christians, following their claim that Christ had risen, were destablising and threatening both Roman and Jewish authority. Both had powerful reason to crush this uprising. The production of the body would have destroyed claims of a resurrection instantly. The fact that they didn't evidences that they couldn't; they didn't have the body.

So did the Christians hide the body? Firstly, there is no evidence that they were expecting a resurrection. On the contrary, following the death of their leader, they split up in dejection. Secondly, 11 of the 12 disciples were themselves killed as a direct consequence of proclaiming that Christ had risen. It is not very likely that they would have held on to their claim to the point of death if they had made it all up.

The conclusion is that no one had the body and that the resurrection claim, however incredible, was true. If you accept that, you pretty quickly conclude that Jesus must have been who he said he was.

I hope that helps.

I hope that helps.[/QUOTE]

So shergar was also resurrected then?

quote:

Originally posted by Tarquin Maynard-Portly:
The disconnect fo me came when I started to wonder why somebody had to die in such an horrific manner, when a loving God could just forgive us individually. The process of accepting God / Christ into ones life should suffice, without the need for such suffering.

There seems to be a lot of emphasis and totality placed on "this life", and it's easy to look for justice and be disappointed when it isn't apparent. Personally I think this life is just one tiny little part of a much bigger picture where balance can be found. The only reason I think this is because I cannot see reason otherwise, and I can't accept that there isn't a reason. I don't see death in this life as a conclusion. I don't really think death is a big deal; I was "dead" in say, 1926, and I'm here now! I can't explain it because I have no idea really, and ultimately what I feel isn't going to make any difference to the outcome, so I might as well go with my instinct and leave it at that. I don't need a religion in my life and I'm quite happy to accept that there are no answers here.
Jesus was just a bloke. He was obviously a very good soul and an inspiration to us, but we don't need to make him a God. He was just a bloke like any of us. If he wasn't, the relevance is completely lost. Why is there an obsession to look for something out there when all we need is within us? It's simple; just be the person to others that you would like others to be to you. The bible said "and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make"....oh hang on....Nah, that was The Beatles.

]

There seems to be a lot of emphasis and totality placed on "this life", and it's easy to look for justice and be disappointed when it isn't apparent. Personally I think this life is just one tiny little part of a much bigger picture where balance can be found. The only reason I think this is because I cannot see reason otherwise, and I can't accept that there isn't a reason. I don't see death in this life as a conclusion. I don't really think death is a big deal; I was "dead" in say, 1926, and I'm here now! I can't explain it because I have no idea really, and ultimately what I feel isn't going to make any difference to the outcome, so I might as well go with my instinct and leave it at that. I don't need a religion in my life and I'm quite happy to accept that there are no answers here.
Jesus was just a bloke. He was obviously a very good soul and an inspiration to us, but we don't need to make him a God. He was just a bloke like any of us. If he wasn't, the relevance is completely lost. Why is there an obsession to look for something out there when all we need is within us? It's simple; just be the person to others that you would like others to be to you. The bible said "and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make"....oh hang on....Nah, that was The Beatles.[/QUOTE]

Rasher,

All very reasonable in my view

Erik