Bibilcal Swine?
Posted by: u5227470736789439 on 19 March 2006
Dear friends
A question that has perplexed me for over thirty years is why when Jesus cast a devil or of a man this devil entered a herd of swine (pigs) who then killed themselves by running in the lake.
Given that Jews don't eat pork, what were the pigs doing there?
I asked a friend, who works in the Cathedral here, and who is, I think, a Christian, even if I am hardly am, this question, and he was stumped, having never noted the strange juxtaposition of pigs in Jewish lands.
All the best from Fredrik
A question that has perplexed me for over thirty years is why when Jesus cast a devil or of a man this devil entered a herd of swine (pigs) who then killed themselves by running in the lake.
Given that Jews don't eat pork, what were the pigs doing there?
I asked a friend, who works in the Cathedral here, and who is, I think, a Christian, even if I am hardly am, this question, and he was stumped, having never noted the strange juxtaposition of pigs in Jewish lands.
All the best from Fredrik
Posted on: 06 April 2006 by erik scothron
Gospel of Judas" gives new view of betrayer
Reuters Thursday April 6, 09:54 PM
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Judas Iscariot, vilified as Christ's betrayer, acted at Jesus' request in turning him over to the authorities who crucified him, according to a 1,700-year-old copy of the "Gospel of Judas" unveiled on Thursday.
In an alternative view to traditional Christian teaching, the Judas gospel shows the reviled disciple as the only one in Jesus' inner circle who understood his desire to shed his earthly body.
"He's the good guy in this portrayal," said Bart Ehrman, a religion professor at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. "He's the only apostle who understands Jesus."
The Judas gospel's introduction says it is "the secret account of the revelation that Jesus spoke in conversation with Judas Iscariot." Later, it quotes Jesus as saying to Judas, "You will exceed all of them (the other disciples) for you will sacrifice the man who clothes me."
"The idea in this gospel is that Jesus, like all of us, is a trapped spirit, who is trapped in a material body," Ehrman said. "And salvation comes when we escape the materiality of our existence, and Judas is the one who makes it possible for him to escape by allowing for his body to be killed." (interesting from a Buddhist perspective)
Rev. Donald Senior, president of Catholic Theological Union in Chicago, said the document revealed the diversity and vitality in early Christianity.
"The question becomes ... does this tradition, this alternative story, if you like, in the gospel of Judas have a claim that in some sense is equal to the rival claim of the gospel tradition?" Senior said.
It is not known who wrote the Judas gospel. The copy unveiled on Thursday is of a document mentioned critically in the year 180 in a treatise called "Against Heresies," written by Irenaeus, bishop of Lyon in what was then Roman Gaul. It spoke out against those whose views about Jesus differed from those of the mainstream Christian Church.
In the Bible's New Testament, Judas is portrayed as the quintessential traitor, accepting 30 pieces of silver to betray Jesus by identifying him to Roman soldiers. The biblical Gospel of St. Matthew says Judas quickly regretted his treachery, returned the silver and hanged himself.
The New Testament contains four Gospels -- of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John -- but many more so-called apocryphal gospels were written in the first centuries after Christ's death, attributed to such disciples as Thomas and Philip and to his female follower Mary Magdalene.
HIDDEN IN EGYPTIAN DESERT
Ehrman, Senior and other experts on Christianity spoke at a briefing at the National Geographic Society, which unveiled a translation of the Judas gospel and which helped authenticate, preserve and translate the document.
The leather-bound copy of the gospel was written in Coptic script on both sides of 13 sheets of papyrus, and spent most of the past 1,700 years hidden in a cavern in the Egyptian desert, said Terry Garcia of the National Geographic Society.
This document was probably copied from the original Greek manuscript around the year 300, Garcia said. Discovered in the 1970s near Minya, Egypt, the volume -- including the gospel and other documents -- was sold to an Egyptian antiquities dealer in 1978.
The dealer offered it for sale without success, and eventually locked it in a bank safe deposit box in Hicksville, New York, for 16 years, which hastened its decay. In images displayed at the briefing, the papyrus looked like brown, dry autumn leaves.
Garcia said it had crumbled into more than 1,000 pieces.
In 2001, the Maecenas Foundation for Ancient Art in Switzerland began an effort to transcribe and translate the volume from the Coptic. In the next years, scientific tests -- including radiocarbon dating, ink analysis and multispectral imaging -- showed the document was copied down around 300.
The Judas gospel is being published in book form by National Geographic and pages from the papyrus manuscript will be on display at the society's museum in Washington starting on Friday. The manuscript will ultimately be housed at the Coptic Museum in Cairo.
Reuters Thursday April 6, 09:54 PM
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Judas Iscariot, vilified as Christ's betrayer, acted at Jesus' request in turning him over to the authorities who crucified him, according to a 1,700-year-old copy of the "Gospel of Judas" unveiled on Thursday.
In an alternative view to traditional Christian teaching, the Judas gospel shows the reviled disciple as the only one in Jesus' inner circle who understood his desire to shed his earthly body.
"He's the good guy in this portrayal," said Bart Ehrman, a religion professor at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. "He's the only apostle who understands Jesus."
The Judas gospel's introduction says it is "the secret account of the revelation that Jesus spoke in conversation with Judas Iscariot." Later, it quotes Jesus as saying to Judas, "You will exceed all of them (the other disciples) for you will sacrifice the man who clothes me."
"The idea in this gospel is that Jesus, like all of us, is a trapped spirit, who is trapped in a material body," Ehrman said. "And salvation comes when we escape the materiality of our existence, and Judas is the one who makes it possible for him to escape by allowing for his body to be killed." (interesting from a Buddhist perspective)
Rev. Donald Senior, president of Catholic Theological Union in Chicago, said the document revealed the diversity and vitality in early Christianity.
"The question becomes ... does this tradition, this alternative story, if you like, in the gospel of Judas have a claim that in some sense is equal to the rival claim of the gospel tradition?" Senior said.
It is not known who wrote the Judas gospel. The copy unveiled on Thursday is of a document mentioned critically in the year 180 in a treatise called "Against Heresies," written by Irenaeus, bishop of Lyon in what was then Roman Gaul. It spoke out against those whose views about Jesus differed from those of the mainstream Christian Church.
In the Bible's New Testament, Judas is portrayed as the quintessential traitor, accepting 30 pieces of silver to betray Jesus by identifying him to Roman soldiers. The biblical Gospel of St. Matthew says Judas quickly regretted his treachery, returned the silver and hanged himself.
The New Testament contains four Gospels -- of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John -- but many more so-called apocryphal gospels were written in the first centuries after Christ's death, attributed to such disciples as Thomas and Philip and to his female follower Mary Magdalene.
HIDDEN IN EGYPTIAN DESERT
Ehrman, Senior and other experts on Christianity spoke at a briefing at the National Geographic Society, which unveiled a translation of the Judas gospel and which helped authenticate, preserve and translate the document.
The leather-bound copy of the gospel was written in Coptic script on both sides of 13 sheets of papyrus, and spent most of the past 1,700 years hidden in a cavern in the Egyptian desert, said Terry Garcia of the National Geographic Society.
This document was probably copied from the original Greek manuscript around the year 300, Garcia said. Discovered in the 1970s near Minya, Egypt, the volume -- including the gospel and other documents -- was sold to an Egyptian antiquities dealer in 1978.
The dealer offered it for sale without success, and eventually locked it in a bank safe deposit box in Hicksville, New York, for 16 years, which hastened its decay. In images displayed at the briefing, the papyrus looked like brown, dry autumn leaves.
Garcia said it had crumbled into more than 1,000 pieces.
In 2001, the Maecenas Foundation for Ancient Art in Switzerland began an effort to transcribe and translate the volume from the Coptic. In the next years, scientific tests -- including radiocarbon dating, ink analysis and multispectral imaging -- showed the document was copied down around 300.
The Judas gospel is being published in book form by National Geographic and pages from the papyrus manuscript will be on display at the society's museum in Washington starting on Friday. The manuscript will ultimately be housed at the Coptic Museum in Cairo.
Posted on: 06 April 2006 by Rube
Quote
I'v seen that website before. I have never subscribed to the Tibet as Shangr-la myth - life in Tibet was always hard. The arguments and evidense on that site is refuted elsewhere. Most people I know think it's Chinese propaganda.
Hi Erik I started looking up the references from the article on Tibet .
Melvyn C. Goldstein, The Snow Lion and the Dragon: China, Tibet, and the Dalai Lama (Berkeley: University of California Press, 1995), 6-16.
Mark Juergensmeyer, Terror in the Mind of God, (Berkeley: University of California Press, 2000), 113.
Kyong-Hwa Seok, "Korean Monk Gangs Battle for Temple Turf," San Francisco Examiner, December 3, 1998.
Dalai Lama quoted in Donald Lopez Jr., Prisoners of Shangri-La: Tibetan Buddhism and the West (Chicago and London: Chicago University Press, 1998), 205.
Stuart Gelder and Roma Gelder, The Timely Rain: Travels in New Tibet (New York: Monthly Review Press, 1964), 119, 123.
Pradyumna P. Karan, The Changing Face of Tibet: The Impact of Chinese Communist Ideology on the Landscape (Lexington, Kentucky: University Press of Kentucky, 1976), 64.
Gelder and Gelder, The Timely Rain, 62 and 174.
As skeptically noted by Lopez, Prisoners of Shangri-La, 9.
Melvyn Goldstein, William Siebenschuh, and Tashì-Tsering, The Struggle for Modern Tibet: The Autobiography of Tashì-Tsering (Armonk, N.Y.: M.E. Sharpe, 1997).
Gelder and Gelder, The Timely Rain, 110.
Anna Louise Strong, Tibetan Interviews (Peking: New World Press, 1929), 15, 19-21, 24.
Quoted in Strong, Tibetan Interviews, 25.
Strong, Tibetan Interviews, 31.
Melvyn C. Goldstein, A History of Modern Tibet 1913-1951 (Berkeley: University of California Press, 1989), 5.
Gelder and Gelder, The Timely Rain, 175-176; and Strong, Tibetan Interviews, 25-26.
Gelder and Gelder, The Timely Rain, 113.
A. Tom Grunfeld, The Making of Modern Tibet rev. ed. (Armonk, N.Y. and London: 1996), 9 and 7-33 for a general discussion of feudal Tibet; see also Felix Greene, A Curtain of Ignorance (Garden City, N.Y.: Doubleday, 1961), 241-249; Goldstein, A History of Modern Tibet 1913-1951, 3-5; and Lopez, Prisoners of Shangri-La, passim.
Strong, Tibetan Interviews, 91-92.
Strong, Tibetan Interviews, 92-96.
Waddell, Landon, and O'Connor are quoted in Gelder and Gelder, The Timely Rain, 123-125.
Goldstein, The Snow Lion and the Dragon, 52.
Heinrich Harrer, Return to Tibet (New York: Schocken, 1985), 29.
See Kenneth Conboy and James Morrison, The CIA's Secret War in Tibet (Lawrence, Kansas: University of Kansas Press, 2002); and William Leary, "Secret Mission to Tibet," Air & Space, December 1997/January 1998.
On the CIA's links to the Dalai Lama and his family and entourage, see Loren Coleman, Tom Slick and the Search for the Yeti (London: Faber and Faber, 1989).
Leary, "Secret Mission to Tibet."
Hugh Deane, "The Cold War in Tibet," CovertAction Quarterly (Winter 1987).
George Ginsburg and Michael Mathos, Communist China and Tibet (1964), quoted in Deane, "The Cold War in Tibet." Deane notes that author Bina Roy reached a similar conclusion.
See Greene, A Curtain of Ignorance, 248 and passim; and Grunfeld, The Making of Modern Tibet, passim.
Harrer, Return to Tibet, 54.
Karan, The Changing Face of Tibet, 36-38, 41, 57-58; London Times, 4 July 1966.
Gelder and Gelder, The Timely Rain, 29 and 47-48.
Tendzin Choegyal, "The Truth about Tibet," Imprimis (publication of Hillsdale College, Michigan), April 1999.
Karan, The Changing Face of Tibet, 52-53.
Elaine Kurtenbach, Associate Press report, San Francisco Chronicle, 12 February 1998.
Goldstein, The Snow Lion and the Dragon, 47-48.
Report by the International Committee of Lawyers for Tibet, A Generation in Peril (Berkeley Calif.: 2001), passim.
International Committee of Lawyers for Tibet, A Generation in Peril, 66-68, 98.
Jim Mann, "CIA Gave Aid to Tibetan Exiles in '60s, Files Show," Los Angeles Times, 15 September 1998; and New York Times, 1 October, 1998; and Morrison, The CIA's Secret War in Tibet.
News & Observer, 6 September 1995, cited in Lopez, Prisoners of Shangri-La, 3.
Heather Cottin, "George Soros, Imperial Wizard," CovertAction Quarterly no. 74 (Fall 2002).
The Gelders draw this comparison, The Timely Rain, 64.
John Pomfret, "Tibet Caught in China's Web," Washington Post, 23 July 1999.
Kim Lewis, correspondence to me, 15 July 2004.
Kim Lewis, additional correspondence to me, 16 July 2004.
Goldstein, The Snow Lion and the Dragon, 51.
Tendzin Choegyal, "The Truth about Tibet."
The Dalai Lama in Marianne Dresser (ed.), Beyond Dogma: Dialogues and Discourses (Berkeley, Calif.: North Atlantic
Books, 1996).
Quoted in San Francisco Chronicle, 17 May 2001.
I think claiming it as Chinese prapaganda is a very week argument indeed and a bit of a cop-out demonize the critiscism and we don,t have to deal with it .To claim that all the refernces are of communist origin is stretching things to the point of breaking .
If you have refutations for the books quoted please could you post a link or something .
Poeople in power sometimes abuse that power no matter what religion
they are and to pretend it doesn,t happen is being nieve .I think people are better of not giving there power away to someone else ,i believe in freedom and co-operation .
Governments both religious and secular have a tendency to want to increase their power over the people .so my wish for the people of Tibet is that they be free to choose for themselves how they live free of both communism and lamaism if they so choose .
I'v seen that website before. I have never subscribed to the Tibet as Shangr-la myth - life in Tibet was always hard. The arguments and evidense on that site is refuted elsewhere. Most people I know think it's Chinese propaganda.
Hi Erik I started looking up the references from the article on Tibet .
Melvyn C. Goldstein, The Snow Lion and the Dragon: China, Tibet, and the Dalai Lama (Berkeley: University of California Press, 1995), 6-16.
Mark Juergensmeyer, Terror in the Mind of God, (Berkeley: University of California Press, 2000), 113.
Kyong-Hwa Seok, "Korean Monk Gangs Battle for Temple Turf," San Francisco Examiner, December 3, 1998.
Dalai Lama quoted in Donald Lopez Jr., Prisoners of Shangri-La: Tibetan Buddhism and the West (Chicago and London: Chicago University Press, 1998), 205.
Stuart Gelder and Roma Gelder, The Timely Rain: Travels in New Tibet (New York: Monthly Review Press, 1964), 119, 123.
Pradyumna P. Karan, The Changing Face of Tibet: The Impact of Chinese Communist Ideology on the Landscape (Lexington, Kentucky: University Press of Kentucky, 1976), 64.
Gelder and Gelder, The Timely Rain, 62 and 174.
As skeptically noted by Lopez, Prisoners of Shangri-La, 9.
Melvyn Goldstein, William Siebenschuh, and Tashì-Tsering, The Struggle for Modern Tibet: The Autobiography of Tashì-Tsering (Armonk, N.Y.: M.E. Sharpe, 1997).
Gelder and Gelder, The Timely Rain, 110.
Anna Louise Strong, Tibetan Interviews (Peking: New World Press, 1929), 15, 19-21, 24.
Quoted in Strong, Tibetan Interviews, 25.
Strong, Tibetan Interviews, 31.
Melvyn C. Goldstein, A History of Modern Tibet 1913-1951 (Berkeley: University of California Press, 1989), 5.
Gelder and Gelder, The Timely Rain, 175-176; and Strong, Tibetan Interviews, 25-26.
Gelder and Gelder, The Timely Rain, 113.
A. Tom Grunfeld, The Making of Modern Tibet rev. ed. (Armonk, N.Y. and London: 1996), 9 and 7-33 for a general discussion of feudal Tibet; see also Felix Greene, A Curtain of Ignorance (Garden City, N.Y.: Doubleday, 1961), 241-249; Goldstein, A History of Modern Tibet 1913-1951, 3-5; and Lopez, Prisoners of Shangri-La, passim.
Strong, Tibetan Interviews, 91-92.
Strong, Tibetan Interviews, 92-96.
Waddell, Landon, and O'Connor are quoted in Gelder and Gelder, The Timely Rain, 123-125.
Goldstein, The Snow Lion and the Dragon, 52.
Heinrich Harrer, Return to Tibet (New York: Schocken, 1985), 29.
See Kenneth Conboy and James Morrison, The CIA's Secret War in Tibet (Lawrence, Kansas: University of Kansas Press, 2002); and William Leary, "Secret Mission to Tibet," Air & Space, December 1997/January 1998.
On the CIA's links to the Dalai Lama and his family and entourage, see Loren Coleman, Tom Slick and the Search for the Yeti (London: Faber and Faber, 1989).
Leary, "Secret Mission to Tibet."
Hugh Deane, "The Cold War in Tibet," CovertAction Quarterly (Winter 1987).
George Ginsburg and Michael Mathos, Communist China and Tibet (1964), quoted in Deane, "The Cold War in Tibet." Deane notes that author Bina Roy reached a similar conclusion.
See Greene, A Curtain of Ignorance, 248 and passim; and Grunfeld, The Making of Modern Tibet, passim.
Harrer, Return to Tibet, 54.
Karan, The Changing Face of Tibet, 36-38, 41, 57-58; London Times, 4 July 1966.
Gelder and Gelder, The Timely Rain, 29 and 47-48.
Tendzin Choegyal, "The Truth about Tibet," Imprimis (publication of Hillsdale College, Michigan), April 1999.
Karan, The Changing Face of Tibet, 52-53.
Elaine Kurtenbach, Associate Press report, San Francisco Chronicle, 12 February 1998.
Goldstein, The Snow Lion and the Dragon, 47-48.
Report by the International Committee of Lawyers for Tibet, A Generation in Peril (Berkeley Calif.: 2001), passim.
International Committee of Lawyers for Tibet, A Generation in Peril, 66-68, 98.
Jim Mann, "CIA Gave Aid to Tibetan Exiles in '60s, Files Show," Los Angeles Times, 15 September 1998; and New York Times, 1 October, 1998; and Morrison, The CIA's Secret War in Tibet.
News & Observer, 6 September 1995, cited in Lopez, Prisoners of Shangri-La, 3.
Heather Cottin, "George Soros, Imperial Wizard," CovertAction Quarterly no. 74 (Fall 2002).
The Gelders draw this comparison, The Timely Rain, 64.
John Pomfret, "Tibet Caught in China's Web," Washington Post, 23 July 1999.
Kim Lewis, correspondence to me, 15 July 2004.
Kim Lewis, additional correspondence to me, 16 July 2004.
Goldstein, The Snow Lion and the Dragon, 51.
Tendzin Choegyal, "The Truth about Tibet."
The Dalai Lama in Marianne Dresser (ed.), Beyond Dogma: Dialogues and Discourses (Berkeley, Calif.: North Atlantic
Books, 1996).
Quoted in San Francisco Chronicle, 17 May 2001.
I think claiming it as Chinese prapaganda is a very week argument indeed and a bit of a cop-out demonize the critiscism and we don,t have to deal with it .To claim that all the refernces are of communist origin is stretching things to the point of breaking .
If you have refutations for the books quoted please could you post a link or something .
Poeople in power sometimes abuse that power no matter what religion
they are and to pretend it doesn,t happen is being nieve .I think people are better of not giving there power away to someone else ,i believe in freedom and co-operation .
Governments both religious and secular have a tendency to want to increase their power over the people .so my wish for the people of Tibet is that they be free to choose for themselves how they live free of both communism and lamaism if they so choose .
Posted on: 06 April 2006 by erik scothron
quote:Originally posted by Rube:
Quote
Hi Erik I started looking up the references from the article on Tibet .
I think claiming it as Chinese prapaganda is a very week argument indeed and a bit of a cop-out demonize the critiscism and we don,t have to deal with it .To claim that all the refernces are of communist origin is stretching things to the point of breaking .
If you have refutations for the books quoted please could you post a link or something .
Poeople in power sometimes abuse that power no matter what religion
they are and to pretend it doesn,t happen is being nieve .I think people are better of not giving there power away to someone else ,i believe in freedom and co-operation .
Governments both religious and secular have a tendency to want to increase their power over the people .so my wish for the people of Tibet is that they be free to choose for themselves how they live free of both communism and lamaism if they so choose .
Hi Rube,
I did not say i agreed with those who say it's only Chinese propaganda. There are those firmly in the 'shangri-la/its all propaganda' camp but I am not one which i think I pointed out. I am in the camp that says, 'I dont know because I was not there and there seems to be evidence for both camps' - so I take the view that the truth is somewhere between the extremes.
People in power do abuse that power and Tibet was feudal and that is beyond bebate. Tibet was a theocracy with the dalai lama as head of religious and secular affairs (which I dont think ever works).
I have seen various refutations but not on one site and I am not saying I agree with the refutations. My understanding or faith in dharma comes from the teachings and not the abuse of teachings or the failures of others to put the teachings into practice. Many of the 'stories' or facts on that website are so totally different to anything I have experienced in the dharma community and so totally against the teachings of Buddha that I can't even begin to understand how things could have degenerated there to such a degree.
In fact, the tradition I am loosely connected with has taken all the 'Tibetan stuff' out, does not recognise the Dalai Lama as its spiritual head and never concerns itself with Tibetan politics or the Free Tibet campaign. Insofar as the 20 or so books published by the head of my tradition are commentaries of earlier traditional and undisputed texts (at least in the mayahana)with nothing added and nothing taken away, tracing back a lineage to Buddha himself (allegedly)I think the tradition is as pure as it is possible to get and what goes on or went on elsewhere is not my concern. I would say however, that I am sure some of those articles have been written by people with religious and/or political motives. When one sees a Tibetan monk going on record to highlight 'the horrors' of pre-chinese Tibet you will quickly see the Tibetan community point out that some of the monk's family are jailed by the chinese and is only making statements in order to secure the release of his loved ones. How can we know the truth? I don't think we can know the whole story and this brings me back to recurring theme I have raised - people believe what they want to believe by and large. I am not the type to think like that, I'm too independent, too pig headed, arrogant and cynical. I check, check, check the check again, and what I check is both the practical benefits and the theory and if something does not add up I say so. Loudly. I'm known to be difficult in this respect. However, having checked way more than most I find little about the actual teachings that give me cause for concern and I find I have undeniably benefitted from my experiences. I am not saying that Buddhism is for everyone, however, if someone wont take the medicine then the medicine can't work. Some other forms of medicine suit other types.
I completely agree with 'I think people are better of not giving there power away to someone else ,i believe in freedom and co-operation ' - There are people out there who seem hell bent on setting one religion against another and quoting the bible as justification and it is this, more than anything, that has prompted me to bang on about Buddhism because it is different in this respect and I think the difference is wholly demonstrable if one makes the effort.
Sorry if I've banged on too much.
All the best Rube,
Erik
Posted on: 07 April 2006 by Jagdeep
My personal guiding principle
--
Holiness is not in religion
It is in compassion and right action
in mind and heart.
Jag
--
Holiness is not in religion
It is in compassion and right action
in mind and heart.
Jag
Posted on: 07 April 2006 by erik scothron
quote:Originally posted by Jagdeep:
My personal guiding principle
--
Holiness is not in religion
It is in compassion and right action
in mind and heart.
Jag
Jag,
Holiness is not unique to religion I would say, but I am sure there must be some holiness somewhere in religion. Compassion and right action are right up there on my list. You have a good guiding principle IMO.
Regards,
Erik
Posted on: 08 April 2006 by Rube
I agree its unessecery to have religion to be a humane and loving person all people have an inherent ability to know what is just and fair and to live lives with compasion towards their fellow man .
There are universal principals which if adhered to would help us all to get along reasonably well .
Erik what branch of Buddhism are you involed in ?
I was raised a Baptist then went penticostal at 18 went to church for years but things started not adding up but still attended I believed Christianity was the truth and they just weren,t practising it properly the Ameicanized religious influence got to bad for me to stay any longer with a good conscience so i left .
About five years ago I took up meditation uing holosync sound tracks they slow your brain rythims down from Beta to alpha to theta and even delta and have seen many changes to the way i percieve the world ,Ive also tryed some traditional style meditation from diverse goups and I dont know that i believe in any of their doctrines but had some quite powerful and moving experiences so i thought it might be something beyond or above any particular religion .
We are part of something much bigger than our percieved selves a sense of oneness and connectedness fills the awareness wow.
There are universal principals which if adhered to would help us all to get along reasonably well .
Erik what branch of Buddhism are you involed in ?
I was raised a Baptist then went penticostal at 18 went to church for years but things started not adding up but still attended I believed Christianity was the truth and they just weren,t practising it properly the Ameicanized religious influence got to bad for me to stay any longer with a good conscience so i left .
About five years ago I took up meditation uing holosync sound tracks they slow your brain rythims down from Beta to alpha to theta and even delta and have seen many changes to the way i percieve the world ,Ive also tryed some traditional style meditation from diverse goups and I dont know that i believe in any of their doctrines but had some quite powerful and moving experiences so i thought it might be something beyond or above any particular religion .
We are part of something much bigger than our percieved selves a sense of oneness and connectedness fills the awareness wow.
Posted on: 09 April 2006 by erik scothron
Hi Rube,
True. I am sure you are right. Compassion, respect, tolerance and the realisation there are different paths to the same goal maybe, and certainly not entrenched dogma of the 'we are completely right and you are completely wrong' type which I find so repulsive.
I was very involved with the New Kadampa Tradition which is a Mahayana tradition. I nearly became a monk and I certainly lived in Buddhsit centre for while. These days I don't have much to do with them for personal reasons but I still consider the main spiritual guide to be my spiritual guide, I still follow the teachings and I do my practice but I do it largely outside of the organisation.
I am not suprised you left. I think any intelligent and thoughtful person has to doubt it all. I think alot of the happy clappy charismatic stuff relies on whipping up hysteria to elevate endorphin levels which the followers get addicted to, they think the elevated enorphin levels are God's blessing but their is little difference in experiencing this than a football suppoter celebrating his team's third goal. There is some scientific evidense to support this. The faith healing that goes on operates on the same level as the placebo effect and shows how our bodies do have the capacity to heal themselves and again there is some scientific evidense to support this, it certainly is not God doing it. The manipulations and profiteering in all of this is scandalous. As soon as the level of hysteria is elevated the collection plate goes round (although the collection plate is in fact several buckets!)
Yes, I know about this and have some experience using a MindLab2000 to entrain brain waves but I am not sure it is real meditation as such as you are relient on a machine but certainly the end result must be similar to a degree. I used my gizmo to go to sleep if I was over-tired and it seemed to work. I still have it in a drawer somewhere. I think it is good with certain hypnotic re-programming packages that one can buy for say wanting to give up smoking etc.
You can entrain the mind to experience different brain states using these gizmos(again there is scientific and experiential evidense for this)and this can have a beneficial effect but it is what you do with those altered mind states that counts not just the trip and this is where I part with the gizmos or rather this is where I part with the relience on the gizmo as personally I believe it is better to rely on a qualified spiritual guide. Interestingly, as I'm sure you know, the mind through meditation can actually re-wire the brain. So, yes you can calm the mind using a gizmo but in Buddhist meditation calming the mind is just the start as then one directs the focussed, calm mind to hold an object of virtue or one can direct the mind to examine the mind itself but spacing out is not part of it.
I never did try using the mindlab and then doing some of my usual practice and maybe it would be interesting to try but in my experience it is the motivation with which I do my practice that is the most important element and time after time this gets prooved to me.
I think it is good to shop around and find the group or tradition that resonates with you the strongest and make your connection. Many people choose to go it alone but I'm not it can be done. Following someone who has gone before you may be the best way. I agree there is something above and beyond religion. All religions (including Buddhism) use what are in fact metaphors to explain what is beyond words, thoughts and expression but the problem is the metaphors then get reified as absolute truth when in fact a metaphor can't be absolute truth at all. Only Buddhism IMO recognises this and goes beyond it and even deconstructs itself. God IMO is just a metaphor or concept to help uneducated people thousands of years ago understand the need for moral discipline (personifying good and bad as god and devil so people can relate to the concepts)that has been hi-jacked by those who would control the people for their own ends.
Yes, true. However even that state is not the final state and has to be deconstructed too and final deconstructed state is where we can get with a little know-how and application.
This has been a most intersting chat Rube and Im keen to learn more about your experiences.
All the best,
Erik
quote:There are universal principals which if adhered to would help us all to get along reasonably well
True. I am sure you are right. Compassion, respect, tolerance and the realisation there are different paths to the same goal maybe, and certainly not entrenched dogma of the 'we are completely right and you are completely wrong' type which I find so repulsive.
quote:Erik what branch of Buddhism are you involed in ?
I was very involved with the New Kadampa Tradition which is a Mahayana tradition. I nearly became a monk and I certainly lived in Buddhsit centre for while. These days I don't have much to do with them for personal reasons but I still consider the main spiritual guide to be my spiritual guide, I still follow the teachings and I do my practice but I do it largely outside of the organisation.
quote:I was raised a Baptist then went penticostal at 18 went to church for years but things started not adding up but still attended I believed Christianity was the truth and they just weren,t practising it properly the Ameicanized religious influence got to bad for me to stay any longer with a good conscience so i left .
I am not suprised you left. I think any intelligent and thoughtful person has to doubt it all. I think alot of the happy clappy charismatic stuff relies on whipping up hysteria to elevate endorphin levels which the followers get addicted to, they think the elevated enorphin levels are God's blessing but their is little difference in experiencing this than a football suppoter celebrating his team's third goal. There is some scientific evidense to support this. The faith healing that goes on operates on the same level as the placebo effect and shows how our bodies do have the capacity to heal themselves and again there is some scientific evidense to support this, it certainly is not God doing it. The manipulations and profiteering in all of this is scandalous. As soon as the level of hysteria is elevated the collection plate goes round (although the collection plate is in fact several buckets!)
quote:
About five years ago I took up meditation uing holosync sound tracks they slow your brain rythims down from Beta to alpha to theta and even delta and have seen many changes to the way i percieve the world ,
Yes, I know about this and have some experience using a MindLab2000 to entrain brain waves but I am not sure it is real meditation as such as you are relient on a machine but certainly the end result must be similar to a degree. I used my gizmo to go to sleep if I was over-tired and it seemed to work. I still have it in a drawer somewhere. I think it is good with certain hypnotic re-programming packages that one can buy for say wanting to give up smoking etc.
You can entrain the mind to experience different brain states using these gizmos(again there is scientific and experiential evidense for this)and this can have a beneficial effect but it is what you do with those altered mind states that counts not just the trip and this is where I part with the gizmos or rather this is where I part with the relience on the gizmo as personally I believe it is better to rely on a qualified spiritual guide. Interestingly, as I'm sure you know, the mind through meditation can actually re-wire the brain. So, yes you can calm the mind using a gizmo but in Buddhist meditation calming the mind is just the start as then one directs the focussed, calm mind to hold an object of virtue or one can direct the mind to examine the mind itself but spacing out is not part of it.
I never did try using the mindlab and then doing some of my usual practice and maybe it would be interesting to try but in my experience it is the motivation with which I do my practice that is the most important element and time after time this gets prooved to me.
quote:Ive also tryed some traditional style meditation from diverse goups and I dont know that i believe in any of their doctrines but had some quite powerful and moving experiences so i thought it might be something beyond or above any particular religion .
I think it is good to shop around and find the group or tradition that resonates with you the strongest and make your connection. Many people choose to go it alone but I'm not it can be done. Following someone who has gone before you may be the best way. I agree there is something above and beyond religion. All religions (including Buddhism) use what are in fact metaphors to explain what is beyond words, thoughts and expression but the problem is the metaphors then get reified as absolute truth when in fact a metaphor can't be absolute truth at all. Only Buddhism IMO recognises this and goes beyond it and even deconstructs itself. God IMO is just a metaphor or concept to help uneducated people thousands of years ago understand the need for moral discipline (personifying good and bad as god and devil so people can relate to the concepts)that has been hi-jacked by those who would control the people for their own ends.
quote:We are part of something much bigger than our percieved selves a sense of oneness and connectedness fills the awareness wow.
Yes, true. However even that state is not the final state and has to be deconstructed too and final deconstructed state is where we can get with a little know-how and application.
This has been a most intersting chat Rube and Im keen to learn more about your experiences.
All the best,
Erik
Posted on: 09 April 2006 by u5227470736789439
Dear Rube and Erik,
Most interesting to follow as well. More than that infact, but not a discourse I can add to, or really join in with. I can only be led here. And led I shall be over time, for I think much of this is far more helpful than any number of doctors or medications. The pure soul can heal itself with the right guidance, and not much help is to be found in the idea that the soul is damned just for being human.
Life is about facing in the right direction and trying to move forward. Success is not necessarily the point, so much as the attempt, and the attitude of mind that humbly tries to be honourable, and kind.
All the best from Fredrik
Most interesting to follow as well. More than that infact, but not a discourse I can add to, or really join in with. I can only be led here. And led I shall be over time, for I think much of this is far more helpful than any number of doctors or medications. The pure soul can heal itself with the right guidance, and not much help is to be found in the idea that the soul is damned just for being human.
Life is about facing in the right direction and trying to move forward. Success is not necessarily the point, so much as the attempt, and the attitude of mind that humbly tries to be honourable, and kind.
All the best from Fredrik
Posted on: 16 April 2006 by Rube
Hello consiously being a loving person is one thing i aim for I suppose its something you give youself over to a kind of surrender .
Acceptance of yourself and others, apreciation ,encouragement being truthful ,letting go of conditioning open-ness sincerity firmness of purpose its all ok as i watch on .
Acceptance of yourself and others, apreciation ,encouragement being truthful ,letting go of conditioning open-ness sincerity firmness of purpose its all ok as i watch on .
Posted on: 16 April 2006 by Rube
HI Erik
Ive been reading a bit about Buddhism do Buddhists litterally believe that Buddha was concieved by a white elephant and was born out his mothers side or is this somehow symbolic .
Also why did he go off leaving his wife and child isnt that irresponsible ? I know someone who is a Buddhist and they neglect their child which i find disturbing . Love Rube
Ive been reading a bit about Buddhism do Buddhists litterally believe that Buddha was concieved by a white elephant and was born out his mothers side or is this somehow symbolic .
Also why did he go off leaving his wife and child isnt that irresponsible ? I know someone who is a Buddhist and they neglect their child which i find disturbing . Love Rube
Posted on: 17 April 2006 by joe90
quote:I know someone who is a Buddhist and they neglect their child which i find disturbing
Elephants make excellent parents. Apparently they cry at funerals too...
Posted on: 17 April 2006 by Rube
Sorry about the fopar there that should have been begotten by a white elephant not concieved I had to laugh when i saw my mistake .
Joe I hope ypu said a comforting word to the greiving elephants .
Joe I hope ypu said a comforting word to the greiving elephants .
Posted on: 17 April 2006 by erik scothron
quote:Originally posted by Rube:
HI Erik
Ive been reading a bit about Buddhism do Buddhists litterally believe that Buddha was concieved by a white elephant and was born out his mothers side or is this somehow symbolic .
Also why did he go off leaving his wife and child isnt that irresponsible ? I know someone who is a Buddhist and they neglect their child which i find disturbing . Love Rube
Rube,
I'm sure it is symbolic. There is no requirement to believe it. As for leaving his wife and child this is also symbolic of renunciation of attachment IMO. His wife (or tantric consort) is thought to have been enlightened too and would have felt no heartache on his leaving. This was discussed earlier in this thread.
Neglecting one's child is dreadful. I suspect she has some emotional problems. Becoming a Buddhist is not an immediate cure for all ills. I've known a few loony Buddhists (there are a percentage of loonies in any large group of people). She is not applying the teachings properly. If she cant even look after her own child she has 0 chance of progressing IMO. Sad.
All the best,
Erik
Posted on: 17 April 2006 by John K R
quote:Sorry about the fopar there that should have been begotten by a white elephant not concieved I had to laugh when i saw my mistake .
Oh yes, begotten is much more rational.
John.
Posted on: 17 April 2006 by 7V
quote:Originally posted by Rube:
About five years ago I took up meditation uing holosync sound tracks they slow your brain rythims down from Beta to alpha to theta and even delta and have seen many changes to the way i percieve the world.
The subject of brain waves and levels of consciousness is fascinating but is more complex than it is generally portrayed. For example, Beta, Alpha, Theta or Delta waves are sometimes seen on their own but are more generally part of a pattern in which they are present in combinations. The symmetry between the brainwaves on the left and right hemispheres of the cerebral cortex is also important.
Important work in the field of the relationship between brainwaves and levels of consciousness was done by the late C. Maxwell Cade, who co-invented a specialized EEG machine called the 'Mind-Mirror' and who wrote a book called The Awakened Mind. His work has been continued by one of his students called Anna Wise who is the author of Awakening the Mind: A Guide of Mastering the Power of Your Brain Waves. Both books are well worh reading if this subject interests you. One of Maxwell Cade's main contributions was to develop a range of biofeedback machines that act as 'sign-posts' to states of mind and that can be used alongside conventional meditation methods, rather than replacing them. He also pioneered the use of a strobe light which was, I believe, the forerunner to machines such as the MindLab2000.
I agree with Eric's views regarding machine-driven meditation and the value of a genuine spiritual teacher - one who has experienced these states of consciousness personally. Maxwell Cade was one such teacher.
Regards
Steve
Posted on: 17 April 2006 by erik scothron
quote:Originally posted by John K R:quote:Sorry about the fopar there that should have been begotten by a white elephant not concieved I had to laugh when i saw my mistake .
Oh yes, begotten is much more rational.
John.
Buddha never taught details of his birth. The story (symbolic IMO)came later, concocted IMO by devotees who wanted to turn the teachings into a religion. Where have we seen this before? However, unlike in Christianity, if it could be proven that Prince Siddartha's birth was not in the way detailed earlier it would not affect the validity of the teachings at all, whereas if it were proven that Jesus was not born of the virgin Mary as the son of God then the whole of Chritianity falls apart because the USP of Chritianity rests on Jesus as the son of God dying to save our sins. The USP of Buddhism is simply that if you meditate on applying the antidotes to delusion you will become happier which is irrefutable.
Many religions absorb bits of other religions when seeking to establish dominence e.g. many Christian festivals contain many Pagan elements and I think the story of Buddhas birth comes initially from Hinduism.
In the words of Professor Winston (a practising Jew)in his recent tv documentary on the history of God 'I think Buddhism has to be the most rational of all the major religions'.
Posted on: 17 April 2006 by erik scothron
quote:Originally posted by 7V:quote:Originally posted by Rube:
About five years ago I took up meditation uing holosync sound tracks they slow your brain rythims down from Beta to alpha to theta and even delta and have seen many changes to the way i percieve the world.
The subject of brain waves and levels of consciousness is fascinating but is more complex than it is generally portrayed. For example, Beta, Alpha, Theta or Delta waves are sometimes seen on their own but are more generally part of a pattern in which they are present in combinations. The symmetry between the brainwaves on the left and right hemispheres of the cerebral cortex is also important.
Important work in the field of the relationship between brainwaves and levels of consciousness was done by the late C. Maxwell Cade, who co-invented a specialized EEG machine called the 'Mind-Mirror' and who wrote a book called The Awakened Mind. His work has been continued by one of his students called Anna Wise who is the author of Awakening the Mind: A Guide of Mastering the Power of Your Brain Waves. Both books are well worh reading if this subject interests you. One of Maxwell Cade's main contributions was to develop a range of biofeedback machines that act as 'sign-posts' to states of mind and that can be used alongside conventional meditation methods, rather than replacing them. He also pioneered the use of a strobe light which was, I believe, the forerunner to machines such as the MindLab2000.
I agree with Eric's views regarding machine-driven meditation and the value of a genuine spiritual teacher - one who has experienced these states of consciousness personally. Maxwell Cade was one such teacher.
Regards
Steve
Thanks for this info Steve, I have not come across the work you refer to before and I will enjoy reading about it.
Regards,
Erik
Posted on: 17 April 2006 by 7V
You might also want to check out: The Life and Work of C. Maxwell Cade
Posted on: 18 April 2006 by Rube
quote:Buddha never taught details of his birth. The story (symbolic IMO)came later, concocted IMO by devotees who wanted to turn the teachings into a religion
How many times did this happen is it not possible that the story of his wifes acceptance of his jouneyings whilst raising their son alone are another example of this at work .Sometimes losing faith is where you find real faith .
Posted on: 18 April 2006 by erik scothron
quote:Originally posted by Rube:quote:Buddha never taught details of his birth. The story (symbolic IMO)came later, concocted IMO by devotees who wanted to turn the teachings into a religion
How many times did this happen is it not possible that the story of his wifes acceptance of his jouneyings whilst raising their son alone are another example of this at work .Sometimes losing faith is where you find real faith .
Hi Rube,
I'm sorry but I don't understand the question (if it is a question), could you re-write it?
Buddha was a prince, prince Siddharta of the Sakyas and is a well documented historical figure. His wife was a princess. She would not have had to bring up a son alone. Prince Siddharta had everything anyone could wish for materially, wealth, possesions, palaces and servants (as did his wife)but his renunciation was based on the understanding that he would age, get sick and die so riches were of no use to him. He vowed to find away of breaking out of this endless cycle of birth, aging, sickness and dying for the sake of all sentient beings so his motivation went way further than a duty to his wife and child. I am not sure if his leaving his wife happened in reality or it is just a meant as a teaching on renunciation.
I do know that anyone seeking ordination as a monk or nun in most Buddhist traditions will not be allowed to do so if it is known they are abadoning their families.
In fact, when meditating with a bodhicitta motivation - the motivation to attain enlightment for the benefit of all it is usual to imagine ones family sitting close to us, then our closest friends, then work colleagues and so forth and until we imagine ourselves surrounded by all sentient beings. We begine the process of cherishing all sentient beings by cherishing our family first, then friends etc. until we can cherish all beings, without exception.
According to the Mahayana, Buddha was already enlightened before chosing his rebirth as prince Siddharta and his renunciation of great wealth and concubines etc. was a teaching on impermanence, renunciation and refuge in dharma and not refuge in material wealth and attachment to wordly concerns.
All the best,
Erik
Posted on: 19 April 2006 by Rube
quote:beings so his motivation went way further than a duty to his wife and child
If the bloke can,t take responsibility for his misus and kid how can he help anyone else. I knew the family were rich but i believe if you have children they are much better of with a loving father around if he can,t manage that small thing he,s not so enlightened then .he,s a fake .I,ll have to award some points to Jesus because he didn,t get married then decide to leave later
The idea that women and children are incompatible with a spiritual life is a load of hogwash .
Celibacy might suit some but any religion that demands it of their clergy is really of the track
enforced celibacy has caused much suffering in the world .