Haydn's 12 London symphonies

Posted by: Tam on 29 July 2006

For some reason, for many years, I never thought of Haydn as a great symphonist - a rather absurd thing to say given that he wrote so many of the things.

My first Haydn symphonies were largely incidentaly purchases: I got 82 and 83 (the bear and the hen) in a box set of Bernstein conducting various things. However, they did impress me and I went on to pick up the DG box of Bernstein's Haydn. However, the symphonies on that 88, 92 (Oxford) and 94 (Surprise) lack the excellence of the set's highlights such as a wonderful Creation.

However, last summer, a five disc set (the actual pressing I have does not appear on Amazon) of Bernstein conducting the London symphonies (the last twelve Haydn wrote, comissioned for performance in London, hence the name, all of which I'm sure people reading this will already know). I'm not sure (more fool me) I would have bought a set had it not been for Bernstein. I think he brings a remarkable sense of joyfulness that makes his Haydn very special, and actually, rather unBernsteinian. I was also glad to get the set as I'd been at a wonderful reading of 101 (military) from the Cleveland orchestra. By and large, Bernstein is quick, full of energy and, of course, joy. But, unlike with a lot of other works, I felt no immediate desire to investigate what other conductors had to offer (more fool me once more).

However, prompted by the several excellent recordings of his I had (and a penguin guide rosette), I ordered Jochum's 5 disc survey on DG. Four discs make up his cycle with the LPO (an orchestra with which he had a close working relationship and also made sucessful recordings of the Brahms symphonies and a combination that could easily make my 'greater than the sum of their parts' thread), the fifth being some earlier recordings with the BPO and the BRSO of 88, 91 and 98.

And what a contrast they made to Bernstein. Slower, more beautiful and with a certain grandeur. The notes to that set describe how integral the minuet form was to Haydn the symphonist but I had never really felt that from Bernstein and had never really been fully won over by his readings of those movements. With Jochum, however, the minuet is king and the works absolutely revolve around these superbly played movements. Indeed, what strikes about the set is how well, in general, he makes the less showy movements shine. But he can bring fire when needed and the reading of the 100th is as fine as they can come. BBC legends have just release a Proms performance from around that time.

However, prompted by Fredrik (and, to a much lesser extent, another penguin guide rosette) I decided to investigate Colin Davis and the Concertgebouw (available very cheaply in two two disc sets. Again I found another wonderful and distinct approach to these works. In terms of tempi he finds something of a middle ground between Jochum and Bernstein. He brings the same sort of orchestral colour (no doubt helped by having such a fine orchestra) that he brought to the Beethoven set I have been raving about recently.

Anyway, all this leaves me feeling very sill for not having realised how great these works were a good deal sooner. Still better late than never (next up, you knew I couldn't go any longer without a mention, I shall be investigating the two or three Mackerras/Orchestra of St Luke's discs avialable on Telarc).

regards, Tam
Posted on: 29 July 2006 by u5227470736789439
Dear Tam,

I have even been found to ramble on that I prefer Haydn to Mozart! This is because I adore the Symphony as a form over the Concerto, and the String Quartet to the Piano Sonata for example, and Haydn was the Master of both forms. What has struck me since is that he was also the first Master of the Piano Sonata! John McCabe's set of these on Decca, is entirely recomendable in every possible respect.

What Haydn never succeeded in was writing operas of the quality of Mozart, or more than a tiny handful of Concerti that match his estemed younger collegue.

The London Symphonies have everything, and are merely a honing of the qualities that Haydn had spent a lifetime drawing together. The Six Paris Symphonies -82 to 87 - are every bit as winning as the London set, and I am particularly fond of the Oxford symphony! the best set of the Paris symphonies on records was done for Nimbus under Adam fischer. there are sadly a few duff sets out there, from even revered musical names...

I think 88 in G is quite possible my favourite classical symphony, and Furtwangler set down a recording which is still not eclipsed. It is wonderfully energetic and very classical as well, but the very heart of the slow movement is tremendously sad. Its basic tempo is very slow, which might come as a surprise. It foxes Adam fischer for example! There is no parallel in any Mozart Symphony, or any other till the Choral of Beethoven. The Piano music is just as advanced and would surprise anyone expecting Mozartean charm. This is profoundly different, rather personal music, which, in the mature examples, lives in a world as rarified as that occupied (but at much greater length) by Beethoven in his late Piano works.

Altogether, I have no trouble saying that Haydn is one of two composers I could never be parted from willingly. The other is Bach. the trouble is that everyone takes him at face value asa Pap Haydn, and then prejudges... They miss a big treat asa a result.

All the best to all you old and potentially new Haydn lovers, from Fredrik
Posted on: 29 July 2006 by Tam
Dear Fredrik,

The Fischer set is on my list (indeed, in the form of the now on Brilliant Classics - I think - complete box which is shockingly cheap).

You mention 88 - again reason enough to pick up the Jochum set which contains a wonderful reading with BPO.


While I don't know the early symphonies (or really anything before the few Paris ones I have), I must agree that the late works demonstrate Haydn's mastry of the symphonic form. Interestingly, I think that Mozart, particularly early Mozart, needs to be played well or it can fall very flat (fortunately both the likes of Mackerras and Bohm bring what is required to these works - if what they bring is very different).

regards, Tam
Posted on: 30 July 2006 by Olly
Fredrik

A very knowledgeable post as ever. Although I could not express why as well as you do, I also feel a preference for Haydn over Mozart.

You mention the Symphonies and the String Quartets but not his Masses. I am drawn back to these more freqently than any other Haydn and the Nelson is one of the last pieces of music of any genre I would ever want to give up.

I would love to read one of your posts on the virtues of different recordings of these works.

Olly
Posted on: 30 July 2006 by Big Brother
Can I just say something ..may I ..oooooh PpPlllease...pretty please...I prefer Mozart to Haydn....YYYeeesss call me cccraazzyyy.......
Posted on: 30 July 2006 by u5227470736789439
Dear Big Brother,

You are welcome! [Smiley]! Fredrik
Posted on: 30 July 2006 by Tam
You certainly may and, to be honest, I think I agree (despite my recent discovery of Haydn's symphonic output).

I suspect this is in part down to Mozart's mastry of the concerto form, and in particular the piano concerto, but also his achievement with opera.

And, in spite of what I've learnt of Haydn, I would argue that the late symphonies of Mozart, from about the mid 30s onwards, are very special indeed (and nothing I've heard in Haydn's yet, for me, eclipses the Jupiter symphony).

Each to their own.

regards, Tam
Posted on: 30 July 2006 by u5227470736789439
Dear Tam, Big Brother, and Olly,

Mozart always wins the popularity stakes, and I grew to love the music of Haydn from a young age.

I take every opportunity to give the older Master a bit of advocacy, because he can be a bit difficult to get started on, not least because he wrote such a huge amount of music.

I tend to enjoy the maturer Haydn more than the younger efforts, but there is still more mature Haydn than all of Mozart! This is a real problem, for finding an entree. Exactly where to start...!

For example, though I adore the Masses, I only have one recording of each, under George Guest in most cases, and, like the String Quartets for me ten years ago, there is a lot of learning for me to do in this area!

Over the last two or three years I have been aquainting myself with the keyboard music of Bach, and even with him I know only a handful of the cantatas!

There is more great music than most of us have the time in a lifetime to get to know with intimacy. Tam knows that I know only four Mozart operas well, because I find that I have to learn the libretto by heart to really understand the subtlely of the music, and I don't have the time to do this for tens or even hundreds of operas! Therefore opera is likely to be more or less closed form for me. I know Freischutz, Fidelio and the three Daponte Operas of Mozart and the Magic Flute. In those I believe I have probably captured the ones I would love best, especially as I have completlely lost interest in Wagner, for example, which I do know in large part quite well...

So I can definately say that if anyone wants some starting points with Haydn, I can send anyone to several places that really will get the Haydn bug inside you if it is within you to enjoy the music in the first place!

All the best from Fredrik
Posted on: 30 July 2006 by Tam
Dear Fredrik,

I for one am very glad you advocate people who are not the most popular (often unjustly) - I owe my booming Walcha collection to it.

However, I think it's fair to say I love both Mozart and Haydn and am always loath to make the sort of 'which could I be parted with' statements because, really, I don't have a single composer in my library I'd want to be without..

On the subject of Mozart operas, when I get round to paying you a visit, I shall bring the recent Mackerras Clemeza which I think might prompt you to bring the total up to 5. (I must start making a list of all these things!)

regards, Tam
Posted on: 30 July 2006 by u5227470736789439
Dear Tam,

To some extent when making an advocacy, it just happens that one sometimes presents the case in overly stark terms, for emphasis! Of course I would be just as upset to be banned from the Mozart A Major Piano Concerto (my favourite - no. 23) and say the Clock Symphony (no 101) of Haydn, in the last movement of which you will find counterpoint to match the Jupiter in quality! It is a bit more joyful too, which I like!!! [Smiley]!

Perhaps a better way to put it it would be that even now I listen to about twice as much Haydn as Mozart over any three month period!

I think I will assemble a few thread links later, such a Milo's Quartet thread and some others, where these are relevant to old Papa Haydn!

ATB from Fredrik
Posted on: 30 July 2006 by Big Brother
Dear Folks ....Well, no one is going to compare Haydn's vocal output with Mozart's but does anyone know a really good performance of the 'Creation' that could make an impact on a non musician knuckelhead like myself (prefer non-nazi conductors soloists ect..)or didn't he write something else in the oratorio form ?? No operas of note I assume...regards..the new(ish) guy..
Posted on: 30 July 2006 by u5227470736789439
Dear Big Brother,

Over the years I have owned several performances of the Creation, and it was the very last piece for for which I got a professional fee for playing the bass for the BFCS. I love it all. A great and life enhancing piece whose Choruses match any after Handel for sheer briliance, power and emotional impact.

I had a set under Colin Davis on Philips, a set under Karajan on DG, which I got second hand and parted with a week later. [Nuff said]!...

And finally the one that still pleases me. Hogwood on 'L'oiseau Lyre' [Decc] which seems to get everything right in my book!

As for comparisons, do you know the Seasons? I have Davis' set on Philips which is rather beautiful. The music is more beautiful, and less dramatic than the Creation, but it has a wonder and life enhancing quality I would never want to have to be without. Haydn himself helps explain why this is not so compelling - at first aquaintance - as the Creation with his comment that he had no idea how to cope with the French Pastoral style of the libretto, except of course that he did, the result is anything but superficial, though the words might seem to indicate that might have been the outcome in the hands of a lesser Master than he was!

Hogewood in the Creation, my recomendation, and find out the Seasons, as a similar but different work.

Have fun with it from Fredrik
Posted on: 30 July 2006 by u5227470736789439
Dear Friends,

After my last post above, I decided to put on the Creation! I had forgotten the dynamism of Hogwood's classical orchestra. Look out for;

'And God said, "Let... there... be... LIGHT!"'

If does not cause you to jump right out of your seat I would be surprised! After the muted, soto voce playing and extra-ordinary tonally ambiguous music of the Representation Of Chaos - The Prelude - this shaft of C Major sunlight on the whole Chorus and Orchestra, as the word light is presented, is as blinding as openning your eyes in the brightest sunlight. A shocking stroke that can still shake me after all this time.

Yes this work is one the real pinnacles of Western Art Music.

Now I must start again as I spoiled the train, but this is too amazing to miss! I could not let the moment pass, unobserved given this Thread...

ATB from Fredrik
Posted on: 30 July 2006 by Tam
Dear Big Brother,

I only have on Creation, but it's extremely good - Bernstein (avialable on the DG box I mentioned in my first post, and separtely). It is with the Baverian Radio Symphony Orchestra and the great Lucia Popp is one of the singers. One of my favourite Bernstein (or indeed anyone) Haydn discs.

As for the seasons, I only have a Solti reading, but it doesn't quite do it for me so I wouldn't recommend it.

regards, Tam
Posted on: 30 July 2006 by Big Brother
Dear Tam, Fredrk, thanks loads..I'll keep an eye out for the Bernstein and Hogwood on Lp's. We are kinda limited for choices in New Mexico so I get most of my stuff second hand or on E-bay..my cd3 served me well for ten years but was sold a few years ago..no Naim dealers here so it's replacement will have too wait...regards..Big Brother