Live Music - should a hifi aspire to it?

I hate to use the C-word, TC, but I think what the phrase recreating the live experience refers to is classical music, and acoustic, perhaps.

You're probably right that live rock (etc) sounds worse than recorded, due to bad equipment, bad set-up and, last but not least, the fairly crappy skills of a lot of rock musicians.

With classical you have to go to a really bad hall if the live performance doesn't transcend the recorded sound, because there's so much subtle aural stuff going on. As a way of compensation recording engineers invented 'sound stage'.

Herman

...but I don't really listen to any classical, and even live 'acoustic' music typically goes through a small Bose or Peavey PA which sounds worse than most decent systems.

CLassical I will concede, but I think most small-scale performance involves the use of some kind of PA - which seems to be the weak link in these cases.

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

I usually put ear plugs when I attend such loud concerts....

Jean-Marc

Alan said

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I mean that a drum-kit for example should sound like a real drumkit in your room.. not a drumkit that has been mic-ed up and the sound reproduced through speakers. That is what a PA does.

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I doubt that many people these days have ever heard real instruments unamplified - or heard real instruments at all except through TV radio CD etc. We are a minority.

cheers

Nigel

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I have heard a hi-fi that sounded like a PA. I had white noise ringing in my ears for the whole 30 minute drive home afterwards

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Only since the last couple of live gigs I use those yellow, squashy earplugs. They hardly cost anything and make listening to a live concerts so much more comfortable!

Normally, most of the time when I go to a live concert, and don't use these plugs, I can hardly listen (and enjoy) music at home for two days!. The high frequencies are cut off, so everything sounds quite dark.
There's one concerthall in Groningen,Holland where live concerts sound wonderful in 95% of all cases, and withou earplugs in.

Greetings,
Alco

Still, think about some of the implications.

For that live "Rock" sound, buy a big Nad amp, stuff earplugs in, play the most compressed unlistenable CD you have at volumes loud enough to annoy the neighbours, and you'll probably easily recreate that "live" sound experience.

I've always assumed that it was the emotional impact, scale and prescence of live music that a good hifi system conveyed. It shouldn't matter whether the music is classical, rock, folk, jazz or blues etc. or whether or not it was acoustic or amplified. If you feel moved by a peice of music on one system and not on another sytem then the first system is doing it's job right irrespective of other HI FI considerations ie. tonal accuracy, soundstaging etc.

yours in music

Syd

Pretty much agree w/Syd on this. A hi-fi should communicate. Aspirations should be aimed there. Part of the rub is what does the listner feel are the important components of the message in order to make the connection. I love dynamics, which is related to scale. Some value leading edge transients, blah blah blah. There's such polarity because of the diverse priorities. More than one kind of music, more than one hi fi maker, and what it takes to push your buttons changes w/mood. BUT if the system is able to communicate your sonic priorities, it's good. Hell with anyone's opinion but your own.
Heard lots of live music that made me want to go home. Never had the system drive me out of my house

While there's something to be gained from the sense of occasion (or visual aspects of a performance) when listening to amplified live music, my limited experience of it makes me think I'd rather be at home listening to records...

JD

speaking of "own goals" - TC ISTM you are judging live performance on HiFi terms (in which case overlooking so much of the "other stuff"), so of course it fails.

Listen to the music.

Oh, come to think of it, perhaps I do get your point... I actually prefer watching motor-racing on TV, rather than getting in amongst it via some hot laps on the track.

not.

Immediacy, interplay, interaction.

Rico - SM/Mullet Audio

Yes, it's a rather tricky affair with amplified live music. Many sound guys seem to be deaf (quite literally), but it all becomes clear when you're on stage as opposed to in front of it.

I used to play live a lot (I still wonder why they let me) and now sometimes do on-stage filming for friends who play venues ranging from 300 to 3000, small clubs to open air concerts. Although I'm not a regular concert-goer, I've really started to enjoy being *right* in the middle of a gig without being distracted by having to play myself. Tonally, a decent hifi will always be better, but when you're on stage with a pop/rock band, the energy -- in terms of immediacy and sheer volume without any detrimental distortion -- is quite enthralling. For all the tonal accuracy of a decent hifi, I've never heard one that came close to the experience I'm speaking of.

Thomas

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Originally posted by Paul D:
"We are a minority" Nigel

The sound of real instruments can be quite an eye opener if you aren't familiar with them and have preconceptions. For instance a violin sound is nothing like the smooth pleasant thing that some Hi Fi people seem to crave. .....

If you never take the time to aquaint yourself with these instruments I think you lose out when judging a Hi Fi.......

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I am in complete agreement.
Terry

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I used to play live a lot (I still wonder why they let me) and now sometimes do on-stage filming for friends who play venues ranging from 300 to 3000, small clubs to open air concerts. Although I'm not a regular concert-goer, I've really started to enjoy being *right* in the middle of a gig without being distracted by having to play myself.

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My favourite perspective for listening to bands is actually in the rehearsal room, unamplified drums, combo amps for the guitar and bass, and just a rudimentary PA for the vocal. There is a directness to rock music in this environment that is IMHO lost in any other situation. Obviously this is seldom possible unless you are in a band or know a few, but if you get the opportunity to listen from this perspective take it.

There are many venues where if you stand at the front right in the middle you don’t get much of the front of house PA, just the backline combo amps and monitors. It is the FOH PA that mangles many a live band experience; certain venues are intolerable in this respect, the ICA in London being the one that sticks in my mind as being the worst.

The closest I have heard to live sound off record is some of the early Can albums (off vinyl, the CDs are no where near as good), early SST label stuff (Minutemen / Firehose), some Steve Albini productions, and Mogwai’s utterly amazing sounding Come On Die Young.

Tony.

When I was the Best Man at a mate's wedding in January of last year in Tashkent, there was a band playing at the reception whose CD I had heard through a portable at the home of my hosts.

The band played in time, they were not without musical talent, and for that reason I considered that the performance was of a reasonable standard despite being amplified through a dodgy Russian PA system.

I was given the CD by my host, and I played it on my system when I returned home. It sounded much better than the live version even if the recording was a little bright. There was more detail, more refinement, and it was more tuneful too.

Studio recordings are usually better than the live versions in most cases, imho, with the possible exception of classical music.

Regards,

Steve.

Let your ears do the talking, let your remote control do the walking...

Rico,

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speaking of "own goals" - TC ISTM you are judging live performance on HiFi terms (in which case overlooking so much of the "other stuff"), so of course it fails.

Listen to the music.

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That's just it - the sound is so awful in most every larger-scale gig I've been to in living memory that you simply can't listen to the music - I enjoy the gig despite the sound, which is painful, distorted and overblown.

If you re-read, you'll see that I said:

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saved only by the presence of the performer and their performance of their music

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...in other words, I am agreeing that there is more to a performance than just the sound, but the very fact that the sound is so bad is similar to watching a very ropy pirate copy of a good film - it's difficult to get the most out of it when the sonics are conspiring against your enjoyment.

I've played in many bands in my time, as a semi-professional drummer and as an ad-hoc bass player, and am familiar with what real instruments sound like. I'm also well aware of the energy those instruments can exude, but what I hear on stage versus what I hear out front is a chalk and cheese scenario, and one that makes me think that larger amplified gigs rely too heavily on the volume and not enough on the clarity and quality of what's being portrayed.

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

I was getting ready to spew forth on this, but Tony beat me to the punch. I have seen a number of gigs and punk shows where the drums were live, the guitar sound came off the amp, and only the vocals went through a PA. That is the standard for rock sound. Unfortunately, few ever get to hear such a thing.

Not surprisingly, some lo-fi recordings of basically a band in a big room live to two or four track capture some of this sound despite lack of polish.

There are a few venues which on a good night can amplify this basic rock sound without screwing it up. And in a small club, stand right up front and you can often get a good balance with minimal instrusion from the PA (though the vocals will be too low, but who cares). The Knitting Factory often sounds fine, maybe a bit too hard. Basically, rock fans usually don't get good sound and often get bad.

But then the same can be said for concert-goers at New York's Avery Fischer Hall in Lincoln Center.

--Eric

I listen to music what I can take from it - what it gives.

Down here in NZ we do not get an endless number of class musicians touring. I have seen Natalie Merchant, Bob Dylan, Tim Finn, The Proclaimers, Emmy-Lou Harris ( with Buddy Miller ) in the last two years.

In every event I'd say the live event was better than anything I'd heard on disk, ever. I listen to Elvis Costello on CD because I can't see him live whenever I want ......

When I think that listening to someone I admire on CD is better than live - it's time to stop listening.

There is the odd exception where the performer has based their output on a manufactured, studio sound - which can only be delivered in a refined
environment. But I don't have any of that kind of music anyway.

Well, I agree completely with the posts by Thomas K, Tony L and Eric B about the sound of a rock band being "in the middle of it". This is my reference for how reproduced rock music should sound. And it never does!

For you rock fans who never had that experience, you should try it out. Un-PA:ed rock music is awsome! Powerful AND delicate. The sheer physical experience of a guitar amp on full song into a 4x12...

I will try some of the records you recomended, Tony. Will probably not work very well with my current LS3/5A setup!

JohanR

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When I think that listening to someone I admire on CD is better than live - it's time to stop listening.

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I can only conclude that either everyone else is experiencing much better gig conditions than I have been, or that people are confusing 'experiencing a live gig' with 'listening to the music' - the former is greater than the latter, as there's visual and atmospheric influences to consider as well. If you shut your eyes at a typical gig (such as the sort I've been talking about) and actually listen you'll find that whilst the music is there, it's there despite everything else.

In other words, when we're at home, we shouldn't be aiming to recreate this 'music despite the crap sound', but the 'music without the crap sound' - and if you can't get your system to sound more musical than a typical gig PA then you should be changing your system, methinks...

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

I like to listen to a lot of vocalist stuff. For example, I can't remember the name of the singer, but on the Naim Sampler CD2, track 1, there is a female vocalist who in my opinion has an amazing voice.

When I listen to HiFi, it is a relacement for not having the singer, singing live in my listening room.

That is what I am trying to recreate with HiFi and as HiFi is reproduced I can not see how it can possibly better than that.

I accept of course as soon as you introduce p.a. systems then my rule goes out the window, but then again most live performances I listen to are opera and other classical performances..

Regards

Belsizepark

Richard B wrote:

"I present as my evidence the first track from Jeff Beck's "Guitar Shop", the sound right from the off is devestatingly dynamic, aggressive, "live" and "natural" sounding, yet would be completely unachievable without the use of close microphones and effects..."

The defence then claims exhibit B: Nazareths song "Sweetheart Tree" from the album "The Catch". It's (as stated in some HiFi mag at that time) recorded with the microphones at least 20 feet away. It's one of very few Rock recordings that at least gives a faximile of the "being there among the band" experience.

By the way, in the text on the back of Nazareths album "Sound Elixir" it says: "Linn and Naim audio equipment delivered by..." !

JohanR

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when we're at home, we shouldn't be aiming to recreate this 'music despite the crap sound', but the 'music without the crap sound'

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cheers

Nigel

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I will try some of the records you recomended, Tony. Will probably not work very well with my current LS3/5A setup!

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I like LS3/5As!

Tony.

[Ducks, runs for cover...]

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Originally posted by Richard Bowles:

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree strongly with you there, the last thing I want to hear is a "natural" drum kit for Rock music _(jazz, accoustic, and so on are a different kettle of fish)_, as apart from some very rare top-notice set-ups and players [1], they require extensive use of multiple microphones, noise gates, compressors, and so on, because they are incredibly squashy and uneven. This also allows a balanced sound across the entire kit - delicate high-hat work and even gut-renching kick-drum has trouble competing with the damn snare at more than a few feet distance!

Likewise, guitar cabs are frequently incredibly unbalanced with each other, as they are very much configured to the taste (how close do they like to stand, how deaf is the player) and wallet (how many cabs do they have) of the individual players - so if you have say Lead, Rhythm, and Bass, they each have wildly different effective volume levels.

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Wow, I really disagree. It is not impossible to get a good live balance so long as someone is willing to stand in the audience and tell the band who should turn up or down.

What's more, if a band has any clue about dynamics and sonic space, they will realize that if they all rock out at the same time, clarity will be lost (and if they do so it will be an active choice). That is reality. If you don't want the snare to drown out everything else, just don't hit it so hard. Not rocket science. I have heard unbalanced or unnatural drum kits at most every show I attend, but at non-commercial venues without amplification it is not so hard to do a good job. Drum kits are really loud and do not need much help is the audience is small.

--Eric

TC said:

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If you shut your eyes at a typical gig (such as the sort I've been talking about) and actually listen you'll find that whilst the music is there, it's there despite everything else.

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Wow, really? You mean, above all the "distortion", lack of soundstage, etc etc? Phew, that's a relief! I was worried I'd been "listening" for the wrong stuff all these years.

Funnily enough, in the same way the there are good and bad recordings, there are good and bad gigs sound-wise. Bad accoustics, crappy PA, professionally challenged sound reinforcement engineer - can all contribute to bad sound. However, the gig is only partially about the sound - its really about the music. And a little, (as people have alluded) about the performance too.

There seems to be a body of opinion here that professional sound reinforcement kit is "poor quality" because it doesn't do hifi stuff. Reality check: it's built to reliably deliver amplification to a variety of sources under all conditions. Reliability is paramount - musicians will not settle for kit that breaks, and strangely enough nor will the punters. Additionally, they're generally either tight or penniless, or both, and will not pay hifi prices for kit. Given time, and care, a PA can sound pretty bloody good. Almost as good as the practice room conditions that Tony mentioned earlier (and I agree, this is the reference really, for rock music). Its another garbage in garbage out system - despite a rather good PA and venue, Catatonia playing Brixton Academy (1999 IIRC) were dismal. No amount of great PA, HIFI qualities, or careful tweaking of the desk could enhance what was going on on the stage.

Try this experient. Rather than turning off your eyes to listen, why not turn off the hi-fi part of your brain? 'Might allow you to connect more with the music, perhaps? Children natrually enjoy music, and are probably not listening for the desk settings or successful micing of the guitar amp when they're jumping around responding to the emmotions that music draws from them.

Like I said before, if you're choosing to judge a performance/gig on hifi terms, you'll (95 out of 100) be disappointed. Much as I love my hifi and enjoy the music it makes, I wouldn't trade a corner seat in Ronnie Scott's for even a "great" recording, thanks very much - dead artists excepted, of course.

Rico - SM/Mullet Audio

PS - I mentioned the start of this thread to a friend (rather listen to a CD at home after the disappointment of the Elvis Costello gig). His response? "must have been a crap gig". Simple.