Want glorious music..try "Balancing" like Marc did
Posted by: Geoff P on 22 October 2005
1)
Background ramblings (if bored by this jump to 2) below).There has been a lot of talk here recently using the term "Noise Floor". As I have moved from a 112 -282 - 252 -552 over a period of time I have a pretty good idea of how the quality of Naim sound progresses thru'the levels. Apart from all the outstanding improvements in resolution, clarity, dynamics and instrumental separation that occur, the other important thing that happens is that the quality operating range of the volume control increases significantly. You could say the "quieter" it gets (lowering of noise floor), the "louder" it gets (listener can't resist upping the volume because it all sounds so great) which is never more true than with the CDS3 /552 combination which presents music out of such a deep dark background that it begs to show off dynamic capability.
Trouble is there is always something to spoil this perfect improvement, the dreaded "noise" in our crappy mains supplies, and we get more sensitive to it with the more sophisticated kit. Ah the hum of a sadly disturbed torodial transformer or two is familiar to all, and though we bury it under the music when playing, it's route cause, noise from the mains, IS degrading what we hear.
Some have struggled valiantly with those terrible things called Mains Filter's and uniformly pronnounced they destroy rather than improve the Naim PRaT (not necessarily true for other make systems).I know a few folks here in the midst of further investigations who have experienced variable results with some different designs of conditioner. So it seems the Naim PS's are our best so far, though imperfect, protection against the dreaded "mains".
Well maybe not.
2)
A weekend music test (what you should defenitely read)I have just paid a very enjoyable return visit to Marc Newman's house to give his rather spectacular example of a Naim system a good thrashing with some of my favorite music. Many thanks to Marc. I won't go into detail (Marc can supply those if he wishes) about all the things he has done in the past to optimize his system but just to say that Marc has searched for "silence" as much as anybody here and got quite a way there by using 2 off 500's and running only one channel in each, which he finds reduces the noise floor significantly because of the light duty cycle of the two associated PS's.
So in context, the first time I heard Marc's system which also includes CDS3, 552 and DBL's it sounded pretty damn good in spite of the crappy mains. This time around one new ingredient was added in the shape of bleeding great grey box containing 300lbs of specially configured isolation transformer which fortunately goes in the garage. This produces balanced power which is "CLEAN" in a way that basically removes the crappy mains effect from the equation (see later on in Polar Bear's infamous "speaker change, maybe" thread if you dare, for more discussion on this and 2x500's etc.) . So this was what this visit was about musically.
Now we are relying on memory for the before sound of Marc's system but it did'nt take long to realise a radical change had occurred.
Hang on a minute now let's get this right. The system did some great things before. Those DBL's, which look like they are going to eat you whole, dissappeared beautifully and the music driven by 2 off 500's was marvellously dynamic and clearly defined. Christ a system like that bloody ought to sound good. So now what is different is that the musical presentation is just completely immersive in a way that was'nt there before. Whatever is played be it hard driving rythum, big band, female vocal, piano trio or rock and rap it gets in your bones, so to speak, and and takes your total attention without even trying hard. I mean I was listening to well used CD's so I knew the music and that normally means the mind drifts off on other thoughts occasionally. That just did not happen here. The system is very dynamic but can be listened to hour on hour.
So what is going on here. Well Marc believes that the Equitech Balanced power box not only does an excellent job of removing dirty mains noise (he has really crappy mains, made worse by all the A/C units that are needed to cool the hot Sacremento days), but because it effectively isolates the system from "ground" (see
HERE for details) it lowers the noise floor to virtually nothing, which shines through in what you hear. Sounds right to me. The proof is that what you hear is glorious.
Other folks are finding the same as Marc. Ron Toolsie for one. I believe Emil F is fitting an Equitech as I write and will be able to report a european experience so watch for further ramblings on this topic.
3)
Back home again (a reality check if you are not already bored to tears)Understand I am perhaps lucky with my mains supply. I live in a country village and suffer virtually no transformer hum(except when I turn on the washing machine etc). I have an overkill dedicated Mains cable feeding oversize equipment leads hydra connected.
So I am back listening to my relatively humble system at home. No DBL's, No 2 off 500's, rather the same front end on a 300. How does it sound? Not half bad! In fact it has quite a lot of the ease of delivery and immersive sound I experienced at Marc's. I am of course "at home" with a familiar sound but I am pretty damn happy with what I hear. In particular the "late night low demand" time is IMO really noise free and comes close to duplicating what Marc's system does.
Conclusion. It's an individual decision what to do. I expect adding an Equitech would bring an improvement but in my lucky situation I am not sure how much bang I would get for my buck, I am happy with what I have FOR NOW!
For folks that have crap noisy Mains and I know of a few who struggle with that problem, the balanced power solution can be a major improvement. For those that aim high and plan to reach the 555 which will for sure need the very best of pure noise free power at any point in the chain it maybe a balanced power solution is manadatory.
For sure NAIM should have a look at what the equitech approach does to all it's black boxes. I think they would be surprised.
regards
GEOFF
Posted on: 22 October 2005 by Colin Lorenson
To get the same result as described on a "mixed" system with a Naim CDP I have fited the Shunyata Hydra and mains cables to excellent effect.
A slightly more portable solution for those of us that move their systems round a bit.
Expensive but v. good. Clarity, speed and blackness, but with music intact and no current limiting.
Colin Lorenson
Posted on: 22 October 2005 by NaimThatTune
Hi Geoff,
Good post and thanks!
I was thinking about the balanced power concept a short while ago, and have a question about your recent experience...
Both you and I and many others have experienced the late-night-low-demand sweetness of our Naim systems as compared to the daytime-hi-demand-buzzy-transformer sound (which still ain't half bad). But at Marc's house did you listen late into the night, into the low-demand period and did it still show an improvement compared to the day? I.e. how 'complete' is the effect of the Equitech?
The more I hear about these devices the more I think I want one...
Cheers!
Rich.
Posted on: 22 October 2005 by Geoff P
quote:
...at Marc's house did you listen late into the night, into the low-demand period and did it still show an improvement compared to the day? I.e. how 'complete' is the effect of the Equitech?
Rich interesting you should bring that up. We listened into the late evening and I found myself reaching to turn DOWN the volume control more than once. Marc confirmed this happens consistently to him. The perceived increasing loudness ( due to further reduction in noise?)would appear to be the same low-demand effect added on top of the balanced power. The system sound improves in subtle ways aswell but the major part of the improvement in sound is there all the time.
regards
Geoff
Posted on: 22 October 2005 by NaimThatTune
Hi Geoff,
Thanks for your prompt reply. I had a feeling you'd probably have stayed up late listening somehow!
quote:
the major part of the improvement in sound is there all the time.
...that's the bit I was interested to hear! My system sounds so totally bloody fantastic at night that if I could have most of that improvement during the day too, I think I'd never leave the house!
Cheers!
Rich.
Posted on: 22 October 2005 by Ron Toolsie
In my experience the Equitech takes the performance several steps above the late night experiences-during the day time- while still allowing additional improvements in the wee hours.It now sounds better at its worst times than previously at its best.
quote:
My system sounds so totally bloody fantastic at night that if I could have most of that improvement during the day too, I think I'd never leave the house!
Posted on: 22 October 2005 by Edouard
Geoff,
What a great post! It's a rainy boring day in Paris and your refreshing and interesting post woke me up! I hope my English improves by reading your posts and I can post myself such good ones!
All the Best,
Edouard
Posted on: 22 October 2005 by mtuttleb
Geoff,
nice post and I'm sure you know what I'm thinking now.
In the next few months I will look at getting myself a dedicated consumer unit and better earthing arrangements for the HiFi. I have ordered a 5 head Grahams hydra (the power igel is good but far too expensive and doesn't have 5 lead solution) and that will be it. This mains and mains conditioning nerdery is doing my head in and is nothing but a waste of time and money
Although if Naim could take a lead on this and evaluate one (instead of all us poor punters biting the bullet
), I might be tempted to revisit this whole business again. Until then.......
1. I must learn to enjoy music playing through what I have and avoid mains nerdery
2. I must learn to enjoy music playing through what I have and avoid mains nerdery
3. I must learn to enjoy music playing through what I have and avoid mains nerdery
.
.
.
.
999. I must learn to enjoy music playing through what I have and avoid mains nerdery
Regards
Mark
Posted on: 22 October 2005 by Emil F
Geoff,
thank you for the review. I am still waiting for my transformer. In the meantime I did a cheap and easy mains upgrade. I followed the instructions from the naim manual (p.3.3) and upgraded the MCB of the dedicated circuit from 32 to 40Amp. I like the result.
I will report as soon as the Equitech arrives.
Regards
Emil
Posted on: 22 October 2005 by sjust
Geoff,
I understand your conclusion is:
- Great improvements easily heard in a system which is haunted by bad (mains) pre-conditions
- Avoidable in a system w/o those problems.
In fact, exactly my conclusion after I had the chance to include Mark's conditioner into my system for more than a week. I was intrigued by the conditioner's effect on "noise floor" and the famous Naim "buzzing problem", but happily switched back to my Power Igel which in turn gave back some of the "live feeling" - and higher noise floor and buzzing.
SO, there will be happy chaps with and w/o "clean" (i.e. balanced) power.
What a GREAT conclusion ! Everybody's happy !
cheers
Stefan
Posted on: 22 October 2005 by Onthlam
quote:
Originally posted by sjust:
Geoff,
I understand your conclusion is:
- Great improvements easily heard in a system which is haunted by bad (mains) pre-conditions
- Avoidable in a system w/o those problems.
In fact, exactly my conclusion after I had the chance to include Mark's conditioner into my system for more than a week. I was intrigued by the conditioner's effect on "noise floor" and the famous Naim "buzzing problem", but happily switched back to my Power Igel which in turn gave back some of the "live feeling" - and higher noise floor and buzzing.
SO, there will be happy chaps with and w/o "clean" (i.e. balanced) power.
cheers
Stefan
Stefan-
My conditioner??
"What a GREAT conclusion ! Everybody's happy !"
I would guarantee that the advantages or benefits goes well beyond what you are concluding.
Extention of the whole audio band is relevent. The ability of the system to express these bits of music was non musical the last time Geoff was here.(Some still buried)
It is my opinion,the system sounded like crap compared to(when Geoff was here last) what it sounds like today.
If you think by putting our heads in the sand and hope for the best,things will be fine?
No,but..To each his own-Of course...
As Ron stated,(In other words)and I will throw in my own variable,our worst day is the best day(you have not even had yet) using any tool you might care to use.(Understand I am talking about the transformers ability to transform any and all Naim kit.This is not a peeing contest)
I have said it before,the transformer puts any Naim system well beyond any thought you might have had for such an upgrade.
Apples to Apples:
If you put the same exact system in the same room,with one on a transformer and one without?
You would hear the difference between "sound" and "music".Extention,timbre,tune,organics,aire,space,real sounding dynamics are just to name a few....
Your Mains is not good. Why? Because it is.
Call your electric company and have them put a recorder on it for a week and report back...
By design,the Equitech is a more quiet device.All Naim gear should have them in the black boxes(IMHO)
Goeff wrote:
"Hang on a minute now let's get this right. The system did some great things before. Those DBL's, which look like they are going to eat you whole, dissappeared beautifully and the music driven by 2 off 500's was marvellously dynamic and clearly defined. Christ a system like that bloody ought to sound good. So now what is different is that the musical presentation is just completely immersive in a way that was'nt there before. Whatever is played be it hard driving rythum, big band, female vocal, piano trio or rock and rap it gets in your bones, so to speak, and and takes your total attention without even trying hard. I mean I was listening to well used CD's so I knew the music and that normally means the mind drifts off on other thoughts occasionally. That just did not happen here. The system is very dynamic but can be listened to hour on hour."
Everything else is mediocre by comparison.
P.S.
I have never had any buzzing from my boxes with or without the Equitech...The 2 days Geoff was here there was little noise coming from the mains.
Posted on: 22 October 2005 by Onthlam
quote:
Originally posted by Geoff P:
quote:
...at Marc's house did you listen late into the night, into the low-demand period and did it still show an improvement compared to the day? I.e. how 'complete' is the effect of the Equitech?
Rich interesting you should bring that up. We listened into the late evening and I found myself reaching to turn DOWN the volume control more than once. Marc confirmed this happens consistently to him. The perceived increasing loudness ( due to further reduction in noise?)would appear to be the same low-demand effect added on top of the balanced power. The system sound improves in subtle ways aswell but the major part of the improvement in sound is there all the time.
regards
Geoff
This is where the Equitech does not have the ability(Nor would I want it to)...
As it does not regenerate the sine wave, it just passes through the garbage.
What we hear at night is the demand lowering and the sine wave becoming more rounded....
It's more than noise floor.The kit sees the the Equitech as the load,not the box or anything behind it.It changes everything...
Posted on: 22 October 2005 by sjust
Sorry for the confusion, Marc
(too many Mark/Marc 's around, here...)
Mark T was so kind to borrow me his conditioner for a reasonable time span, and my conclusion was (in a nutshell)
- Great for removing noise (if you're bothered)
- Rounding up trebles and mids in a very polite way
- Extending both low and high freqs
Scaringly good at the beginning, itching doubts coming up as you listen more and more. I have NO final "verdict" (as I think MarK hasn't), but decided NOT to want one ATM.
Really, a matter of a two edged sword for me...
cheers
Stefan
Posted on: 22 October 2005 by Geoff P
Marc N.
As Stefan points out he is referring to a different power conditioner, details of which can be read
HERE Marc out of interest if you read this you will see there are some commonalities in the thinking behind it's design and your Equitech. There is however at least one major difference in it's use of filters which are not present in the Equitech. I do feel that there the Equitech has a great advantage and that the musical rounding effects that Stefan reports may be mainly due to the filtering which IMO is a "no no" for NAIM systems in particular.
I value both Stefan & Mark's judgement and know some of the details of their evaluation of this device from which Stefan drew the conclusions he reports in his system.
Whilst I was very impressed with the benefits of the Equitech I heard in YOUR system, as we briefly discussed during my visit and as I commented at the start of this thread it really does boil down to how bad the quality of the mains supply is as to the value gained from the significant investment required to purchase either of the boxes in discussion here.
I am clear in my mind that I hear a lot of what you have in your system in my existing setup so I do not view the Equitech as a panacea for all. I am pretty sure it will bring an improvement at some level to any system but this is a matter of degree and ROI if you like, and must therefore be a personal decision for each individual.
In the end we must go where our ears (and pockets) point us.
regards
Geoff
regards
Geoff
Posted on: 23 October 2005 by NaimThatTune
Ron, Marc (N)
Thanks for further adding to Geoff's response to my question! I was aware that the Equitech is not a regeneration device and does not incorporate any filters, but if what Ron says is really true (that day with the device is *better* than night without) then I'm mightily impressed!
Of course to a degree it depends how bad your mains is but I would postulate that anybody who can hear even a tiny difference between day and late night listening probably has enough junk sitting on the mains to warrant one of these devices.
But, as ever, living in a small house in England, where the blazes am I gonna put the thing???
Best,
Rich.
Posted on: 23 October 2005 by Onthlam
quote:
that day with the device is *better* than night without) then I'm mightily impressed!
This IS the point....
There is more of everything even if you have no issues with mains...
Posted on: 23 October 2005 by Onthlam
quote:
where the blazes am I gonna put the thing???
If you have the desire and the will?
We will find a place!!
It is worth it.
Posted on: 23 October 2005 by Onthlam
"anybody who can hear even a tiny difference between day and late night listening probably has enough junk sitting on the mains to warrant one of these devices"
WORD!!
A partial list of Equitech clients:
A/V POST/FILM ARTISTS RECORDING STUDIOS
TODD A/O RAY CHARLES THE PLANT
WARNER FOLEY STUDIOS NORAH JONES GLENWOOD PLACE
WARNER SOUND DEPT. ELTON JOHN OCEAN WAY RECORDING
SKYWALKER SOUND NEIL YOUNG AVATAR STUDIOS
MIKE POST STUDIOS STEVIE WONDER WONDERLAND STUDIO
SONY POST PRODUCTIONS BRITNEY SPEARS SONY RECORDING STUDIO (NYC)
SOUND SERVICES INC. EMINEM GENTLEMAN'S CLUB
HERBIE HANCOCK NRG STUDIOS
PRODUCERS/ENGINEERS CHRISTINA AGUILERA HACIENDA STUDIOS
ROGER NICHOLS BOB DYLAN HOLLYWOOD RECORDS
PHIL RAMON AEROSMITH A&M RECORDS
BRUCE SWEDIEN SHERYL CROW OZ AUDIO AND POST
FRANK SERAFINE BB KING LAWSON PRODUCTIONS
RICKY SKAGGS WINDHAM HILL RECORDS
LIVE SOUND-THEATER HARRY CONNICK JR. MUTATO MUSIKA
UNIVERSAL AMPHITHEATER RICKY MARTIN
PRO MIX STEELY DAN STUDIO DESIGN/ARCHITECTS
CIRQUE DU SOLIEL OZZY OSBOURNE JOHN STORYK
THE MIRAGE LENNY KRAVITZ CHRIS PELONIS
AUDIO ANALYSTS HOOTIE AND THE BLOWFISH CHRISTOPHER HUSTON
BENAROYA THEATER N'SYNC WESTLAKE AUDIO
WHITNEY HOUSTON
RELIGIOUS BROADCAST JOE COCKER MANUFACTURERS
GOOD NEWS BROADCASTING STYX DIGIDESIGN
IN TOUCH MINISTRIES EMMYLOU HARRIS EUPHONIX
CRYSTAL CATHEDRAL DIAMOND RIO MACKIE
HEARTS OF SPACE BACKSTREET BOYS MANLEY LABS
THE HANSONS MESA BOOGIE AMPLIFIERS
TV / RADIO PEARL JAM SONY CD MANUFACTURING
USA S.O.C. SCORPIONS SOLID STATE LOGIC
PBS S.O.C. KIDROCK SPECK ELECTRONICS
NATIONAL PUBLIC RADIO LUIS MIGUEL SLS LOUDSPEAKERS
REGIONAL MALELEAF COM. MICHAEL JACKSON ROYER LABS
KITV (FOX HONOLULU) APPOGEE
KHON (ABC HONOLULU) UNIVERSITIES AUDIO TECHNICA
HUGHES SATELLITE COMM. U.C.L.A. CROWN
FOX BROADCASTING S.U.N.Y.
ARGYLE BROADCASTING UNIVERSITY OF COLORADO OTHER INDUSTRIES
ABC SPORTS UNIVERSITY OF TEXAS FAA (AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL)
BALL STATE UNIVERSITY NASA / JPL LABORATORY
REMOTE UNIVERSITY OF ARIZONA NATIONAL SCIENCE FOUNDATION
ENCORE RECORDING OREGON STATE UNIVERSITY GEMINI OBSERVATORY (HAWAII)
EXTREME NEW MEDIA OHIO STATE UNIVERSITY LAWRENCE LIVERMORE NL
ENACTRON STUDIOS UNIVERSITY OF ALABAMA UPJOHN LABORATORIES
CSP MOBILE PRODUCTIONS AUBURN UNIVERSITY ATT
Posted on: 24 October 2005 by PS
....which one do you buy?, how much is it? & how big is it? (i'm not technical you see)....can someone provide a general specification that will suit all situations....
Posted on: 24 October 2005 by Onthlam
PS-
The 10Kva(QB) is the one that Ron and I have.
There is special pricing for all Naim folks who purchase this model.$3300 domestic and $3400 Europe
The size of the box is 24x24x8 inches
Hope this helps
Marc
Posted on: 24 October 2005 by Geoff P
Marc
If plugged into a dedicated heavy duty spur (eg 10mm2 or 12mm2 cores) how well would one of the Q series of plug in units as described
HERE work in comparison with your 10KVA unit which is hardwired at the consumer unit?
What about the so called QV1000 and Son of Q?
If the guys at Equitech think these would work well, can they supply them with a single country specific european output socket for a "hydra" or with from 4 to 6 individual sockets "hydra" wired internally?
Am I off beam in thinking some of these units are quite a bit smaller and less expensive?
regards
Geoff
Posted on: 24 October 2005 by NaimThatTune
Geoff,
I too wondered this, after checking the website intensively a short while ago. Maybe a good idea, certainly worth an email to the chaps at Equitech...
Marc,
After a quick measuring session I have determined that a 24 x 24 x 8 inch box will fit in the cupboard under the stairs. So today's word is... BWUHAHAHAHAHAAAA!
Today $3400 is 1900 GBP (ish). Don't know what shipping would cost but basically we're looking at probably a total of around about Supercap or XPS2 money to get one of these set up in the UK.
Unfortunately I already have such a long list of things I need to do to my house, my cars and so on that I'll have to use this as the summit of my self-concocted reward structure - no Equitech until the existing jobs are done!
Anybody wanna help me fit a new kitchen?
Cheers!
Rich.
Posted on: 24 October 2005 by Theo
Geoff,
For clean power, check the AHP products from de Groef audio in Groningen:
http://www.degroefaudio.nlThe effect of a 20 euro investment for me was equal to adding a flatcap to my CD5.
Theo
Posted on: 24 October 2005 by Onthlam
quote:
Originally posted by Geoff P:
Marc
If plugged into a dedicated heavy duty spur (eg 10mm2 or 12mm2 cores) how well would one of the Q series of plug in units as described
HERE work in comparison with your 10KVA unit which is hardwired at the consumer unit?
What about the so called QV1000 and Son of Q?
If the guys at Equitech think these would work well, can they supply them with a single country specific european output socket for a "hydra" or with from 4 to 6 individual sockets "hydra" wired internally?
Am I off beam in thinking some of these units are quite a bit smaller and less expensive?
regards
Geoff
Geoff-
The in house units are of the same quality "Q" version transformers.The "Q" being their best transformers.
The downside is that the inhouse units have surge protection,and gfci.. Not good for the sounds..
After many talks it was determined that the best vfm and performance would be the "QB" units..
In addition, there are to many switches and breakers on the thing.
The largest indouse unit would be the 5Q. Half the size of what Ron and I use.
The cost can suprise you. The inhouse unit at half the size would cost much more than the 10BQ..
Setting it up in your system would be easy. No need to get into now.Pretty straight forward...
Why don't you email Dave D. at Nana and let him know what kit you have. He can easily set you straight on minimum nums...Then I could speak to Equitech to get the best pricing on that unit. A 5Q in a box is 50 amps....7.5 is 75 amps...And so on....
Maybe we can look at what you have and talk about how far you intend to go with the kit. Then determine what would be best..I can only suggest we stay in the cat of BQ units...
NTT-
We could knock that kitchen out in a couple weeks... Then what?
Transformer!!!!
Marc
Posted on: 25 October 2005 by Geoff P
Marc
I was thinking of e-mailing with Equitech on the subject for their comments.
Is there somebody I should ask for by name? Can I use you as a reference?
regards
Geoff
Posted on: 25 October 2005 by Onthlam
quote:
Originally posted by Geoff P:
Marc
I was thinking of e-mailing with Equitech on the subject for their comments.
Is there somebody I should ask for by name? Can I use you as a reference?
regards
Geoff
Geoff-Sent you a reply email...
Will you contact Dave D.?
For everyone else:
Tom or Jasmine
Make sure you get the same discount compared to the 10BQ(E) unit.Retail $4300,your price $3400..
Do not get anything that has switches,gfci,or surge protection.
Regards to all,
Marc