Want glorious music..try "Balancing" like Marc did

Posted by: Geoff P on 22 October 2005

1) Background ramblings (if bored by this jump to 2) below).

There has been a lot of talk here recently using the term "Noise Floor". As I have moved from a 112 -282 - 252 -552 over a period of time I have a pretty good idea of how the quality of Naim sound progresses thru'the levels. Apart from all the outstanding improvements in resolution, clarity, dynamics and instrumental separation that occur, the other important thing that happens is that the quality operating range of the volume control increases significantly. You could say the "quieter" it gets (lowering of noise floor), the "louder" it gets (listener can't resist upping the volume because it all sounds so great) which is never more true than with the CDS3 /552 combination which presents music out of such a deep dark background that it begs to show off dynamic capability.

Trouble is there is always something to spoil this perfect improvement, the dreaded "noise" in our crappy mains supplies, and we get more sensitive to it with the more sophisticated kit. Ah the hum of a sadly disturbed torodial transformer or two is familiar to all, and though we bury it under the music when playing, it's route cause, noise from the mains, IS degrading what we hear.

Some have struggled valiantly with those terrible things called Mains Filter's and uniformly pronnounced they destroy rather than improve the Naim PRaT (not necessarily true for other make systems).I know a few folks here in the midst of further investigations who have experienced variable results with some different designs of conditioner. So it seems the Naim PS's are our best so far, though imperfect, protection against the dreaded "mains".

Well maybe not.

2) A weekend music test (what you should defenitely read)

I have just paid a very enjoyable return visit to Marc Newman's house to give his rather spectacular example of a Naim system a good thrashing with some of my favorite music. Many thanks to Marc. I won't go into detail (Marc can supply those if he wishes) about all the things he has done in the past to optimize his system but just to say that Marc has searched for "silence" as much as anybody here and got quite a way there by using 2 off 500's and running only one channel in each, which he finds reduces the noise floor significantly because of the light duty cycle of the two associated PS's.

So in context, the first time I heard Marc's system which also includes CDS3, 552 and DBL's it sounded pretty damn good in spite of the crappy mains. This time around one new ingredient was added in the shape of bleeding great grey box containing 300lbs of specially configured isolation transformer which fortunately goes in the garage. This produces balanced power which is "CLEAN" in a way that basically removes the crappy mains effect from the equation (see later on in Polar Bear's infamous "speaker change, maybe" thread if you dare, for more discussion on this and 2x500's etc.) . So this was what this visit was about musically.

Now we are relying on memory for the before sound of Marc's system but it did'nt take long to realise a radical change had occurred.

Hang on a minute now let's get this right. The system did some great things before. Those DBL's, which look like they are going to eat you whole, dissappeared beautifully and the music driven by 2 off 500's was marvellously dynamic and clearly defined. Christ a system like that bloody ought to sound good. So now what is different is that the musical presentation is just completely immersive in a way that was'nt there before. Whatever is played be it hard driving rythum, big band, female vocal, piano trio or rock and rap it gets in your bones, so to speak, and and takes your total attention without even trying hard. I mean I was listening to well used CD's so I knew the music and that normally means the mind drifts off on other thoughts occasionally. That just did not happen here. The system is very dynamic but can be listened to hour on hour.

So what is going on here. Well Marc believes that the Equitech Balanced power box not only does an excellent job of removing dirty mains noise (he has really crappy mains, made worse by all the A/C units that are needed to cool the hot Sacremento days), but because it effectively isolates the system from "ground" (see HERE for details) it lowers the noise floor to virtually nothing, which shines through in what you hear. Sounds right to me. The proof is that what you hear is glorious.

Other folks are finding the same as Marc. Ron Toolsie for one. I believe Emil F is fitting an Equitech as I write and will be able to report a european experience so watch for further ramblings on this topic.

3) Back home again (a reality check if you are not already bored to tears)

Understand I am perhaps lucky with my mains supply. I live in a country village and suffer virtually no transformer hum(except when I turn on the washing machine etc). I have an overkill dedicated Mains cable feeding oversize equipment leads hydra connected.

So I am back listening to my relatively humble system at home. No DBL's, No 2 off 500's, rather the same front end on a 300. How does it sound? Not half bad! In fact it has quite a lot of the ease of delivery and immersive sound I experienced at Marc's. I am of course "at home" with a familiar sound but I am pretty damn happy with what I hear. In particular the "late night low demand" time is IMO really noise free and comes close to duplicating what Marc's system does.

Conclusion. It's an individual decision what to do. I expect adding an Equitech would bring an improvement but in my lucky situation I am not sure how much bang I would get for my buck, I am happy with what I have FOR NOW!

For folks that have crap noisy Mains and I know of a few who struggle with that problem, the balanced power solution can be a major improvement. For those that aim high and plan to reach the 555 which will for sure need the very best of pure noise free power at any point in the chain it maybe a balanced power solution is manadatory.

For sure NAIM should have a look at what the equitech approach does to all it's black boxes. I think they would be surprised.

regards
GEOFF
Posted on: 25 October 2005 by Onthlam
NTT-
Being that this thing has a heft of 325 pounds, I know what Emil paid for shipping.YIKES!!
My guess to the UK it would be 500/600 bucks..
Closer to an XPS2...

Regards,
Marc
Posted on: 25 October 2005 by NaimThatTune
Hi Marc,

Yes, 5 or 6 hundred is what I was thinking. Seems a lot for what appears to be 'dead' money, but then again, a discount of 1100 USD for being a Naim customer just about covers that, so its not all bad.

But in the meantime, back to the kitchen - then I'll be able to feed the swarms of potential UK customers who want to pop over for a listen... Yikes indeed!! Big Grin

Cheers!

Rich.
Posted on: 25 October 2005 by Geoff P
quote:
Will you contact Dave D.?
Marc..In my case I think Naim UK is best being 220-240volt. I have made a first estimate based on the power supply ratings. With the CDS3 / 552 /300 it adds up to 800VA so a 1.5KVA unit should be a possibility.

regards
Geoff
Posted on: 25 October 2005 by avhed
Anyone have any advice for all my Equitech options for a Naim 5 system?
Equitech has a Q type transformer in a box for $399 US.(1.5kVA (15 amps) Will this be suitable?
Posted on: 25 October 2005 by Onthlam
Geoff-
I'm sure I have this wrong but...
Add up the fuse ratings of your kit and multiply by 3.....

I would not come home with less than a 5 Kva Geoff.But, that's me....

Best,
Marc
Posted on: 26 October 2005 by Emil F
quote:
Originally posted by Geoff P:
quote:
Will you contact Dave D.?
Marc..In my case I think Naim UK is best being 220-240volt. I have made a first estimate based on the power supply ratings. With the CDS3 / 552 /300 it adds up to 800VA so a 1.5KVA unit should be a possibility.

regards
Geoff

The input power of a 500 is 1000VA. No more upgrades? Winker

Regards

Emil
Posted on: 26 October 2005 by Geoff P
quote:
The input power of a 500 is 1000VA. No more upgrades?
Regards Emil
Emil.. it is not clear yet how much overkill on power rating is really needed. For example take the following infromation that can be found on the Equitech web site.

1.0KVA is rated for *Max. 300 Watts Audio into 8 ohms
1.5KVA is rated for *Max. 800 Watts Audio into 8 ohms

*It is assumed that either a plasma display, television or projection television is present in the system,
When no plasma display or projection system is used, the amplifier wattage may be increased 20%


So a 1.5KVA system with no other requirements than to drive a Naim system which has a approxm rating for over 900 Watts Audio into 8 ohms looks to have the necessary headroom for a 500 even allowing for the Naim PS requirement.

Equitech also state:

"Though modestly rated at 1000 Watts, the transformer rivals any competitor's 20-amp system. Its heart is massive. With a low impedance design, it can handle fast current transients as efficiently as systems that are twice its size. Let's face it, many components do not require a lot of continuous current to run efficiently and at high volume levels."

Again open to interpretation.

Main message is more info is needed, before assuming 1.5KVA is under powered.

regards
GEOFF
Posted on: 26 October 2005 by Emil F
Geoff,

I am not a specialist and I don't feel comfortable with calculations, when it comes to mains. You know that most of the power conditioners do not work well with naim. I think that one of reasons is the limited size of their transformers. I'd trust somebody who has the experience. That's why I did not want to buy a transformer smaller than 10 kVA, despite the fact that somebody from Equitech advised me to take 5 kVA. An audio manufacturer told me that my system needs at least 5 kVA. Have in mind that we don't have perfect conditions like power quality, cables, connections, weather and others.

Maybe you can have 30 days money back guarantee but then you have to pay over USD 1000 for transport. I would use the 1,5 kVA unit for TV and DVD, if it is not very expensive.

Regards

Emil
Posted on: 26 October 2005 by Onthlam
I'm sure Geoff could have 60 or 70 days to try it...

Emil-
Yours ships tomorrow??

Marc
Posted on: 26 October 2005 by Onthlam
quote:
Originally posted by avhed:
Anyone have any advice for all my Equitech options for a Naim 5 system?
Equitech has a Q type transformer in a box for $399 US.(1.5kVA (15 amps) Will this be suitable?


I would get 20 to 40% more than what you need. Whatever that may be.
I think this is one of those decisions where to much may be just enough..
Once again,that's just me.

Marc
Posted on: 26 October 2005 by Alex S.
Interesting stuff. Listening in the middle of an industrial estate, as I do, I'm alays looking for mains conditioning that really works. Must say that for those with less to spend, the latest version of the James Audio conditioner does a decent job of lowering the noise floor whilst not sitting on the music; its certainly the best conditioner I've tried to date, and I've tried a few.
Posted on: 26 October 2005 by Onthlam
Alex-
The thing is??
(I) do not want anything that conditions the mains...
In short,this is why this thing works so well...

All others are of the same flavor with a small twist..

Understand the ,"Less to spend" piece...
Posted on: 28 October 2005 by Goldstar
A very interesting post and I am sure that the technical arguments are sound.....and yet I wonder if your journey is really necessary?

As I 'improve' my Naim system, mainly ensuring that the chain consists of units of the same quality, then the 'sound' of the system seems to matter less and less. Roger Norrington said once that music is no more about sound than art is about paint. It is no accident that Naim qualities of Pace Rythmm and Timing enable the gestalt of the music to shine through , where most conventional systems emasculate the music.


Just a thought Robert
Posted on: 28 October 2005 by Emil F
quote:
Originally posted by Marc Newman:
I'm sure Geoff could have 60 or 70 days to try it...

Emil-
Yours ships tomorrow??

Marc

It will be shipped today. Yesterday we made some amendments in the airway bill.

Regards

Emil
Posted on: 28 October 2005 by NaimThatTune
Originally posted by Emil F.
quote:
Yesterday we made some amendments in the airway bill


It's coming by AIR? Eek

Was the amendment 'You're gonna need a bigger 'plane...' ?

Big Grin

Cheers!

Rich.
Posted on: 28 October 2005 by Onthlam
quote:
Originally posted by Goldstar:
A very interesting post and I am sure that the technical arguments are sound.....and yet I wonder if your journey is really necessary?

As I 'improve' my Naim system, mainly ensuring that the chain consists of units of the same quality, then the 'sound' of the system seems to matter less and less. Roger Norrington said once that music is no more about sound than art is about paint. It is no accident that Naim qualities of Pace Rythmm and Timing enable the gestalt of the music to shine through , where most conventional systems emasculate the music.


Just a thought Robert


Robert-
I agree that Naim gear is as perfect as one can get it.(As it leaves the factory)
However, it's is when I take it home and screw everything up by how I might set it up. This also includes the quality of the mains I use.

None of this is plug and play........
You no more would want to have color tones off as you would never want your kit to sound out of tune.
To your point,it is the emotional aspect of the arts that reaches into our soul..

Emil-
Big Grin
Posted on: 28 October 2005 by Emil F
quote:
Originally posted by NaimThatTune:
Originally posted by Emil F.
quote:
Yesterday we made some amendments in the airway bill


It's coming by AIR? Eek

Was the amendment 'You're gonna need a bigger 'plane...' ?

Big Grin

Cheers!

Rich.

I was trying to arrange the new Airbus 380, which came to Frankfurt yesterday for a first test. Cool The size of the transformer is OK but the weight makes me feel nervous.

Regards

Emil
Posted on: 30 October 2005 by mtuttleb
quote:
Alex S.

Interesting stuff. Listening in the middle of an industrial estate, as I do, I'm alays looking for mains conditioning that really works. Must say that for those with less to spend, the latest version of the James Audio conditioner does a decent job of lowering the noise floor whilst not sitting on the music; its certainly the best conditioner I've tried to date, and I've tried a few.


So Alex, you have had the benefit of trying the Mk5 and Mk6 James conditioners. I have the Mk5 unit. Care to share with us any experiences between the 2 models.
Posted on: 07 November 2005 by Goldstar
Mark,

Where are you?


Bob
Posted on: 10 November 2005 by Goldstar
Hi Mark,

I do agree that the installation should be carried out in an informed way so that nothing
detracts from the Naim characteristics of Pace , Rythmm and Timimg.
It has been my experience that filters of whatever type remove some of the essential life from the music.

The removal of noise and interference is a worthy goal, how to do it without harming the music......that is the question.

Cheers Bob
Posted on: 10 November 2005 by Goldstar
Mark Newman!
Posted on: 10 November 2005 by Onthlam
Bob-
I am in California..

Email me at closedmail@comcast.net

Regards,
Marc
Posted on: 10 November 2005 by Emil F
Marc,

mine must arrive on Monday. Also I will have a Powerigel today or Monday.

Regards

Emil
Posted on: 11 November 2005 by mtuttleb
quote:
Hi Mark,

I do agree that the installation should be carried out in an informed way so that nothing
detracts from the Naim characteristics of Pace , Rythmm and Timimg.
It has been my experience that filters of whatever type remove some of the essential life from the music.

The removal of noise and interference is a worthy goal, how to do it without harming the music......that is the question.

Cheers Bob


Bob

I really believe that there is a solution to reduce the sensitivity of Naim equipment to in coming rubbish on the mains without affecting the music. Some units are quite close to achieving this and I'm sure with some additional effort they will be even better. Also, we are not all fortunate enough to have our entire building rewired together with a new isolation transformer being fitted, which was the case in your appartment block I think. Todays mains is not the same as it was back in the days where Julian Vereker started out. I think we can all agree at least on that.

Sorry Marc but I am not convinced that a 10kVA toroidal transformer is the complete solution. After all you say that you still have minor effects detrimental to your system performance during the summer months with all those air conditioners and swimming pools.

regards
Mark
Posted on: 11 November 2005 by Onthlam
Mark-
I believe I have always agreed with your belief.
"complete solution"
I am,"Stoked",because it does what it does so well without interupting the music.

When I made my decision,I had to consider what was available to me and what device would have the greatest effect on the music.In my own exec. summery I swore I would not purchase anything that would compromise the,"Naim signature".

In my opinion,there is no device that would solve everything.Any device with regeneration will to some degree degrade the sound.This would could be a changed sound,not better music...
Any device with switches or surge protection will have a negative effect on the music.

At the end of the day it will come down to what you are able to live with and to what degree your system is able to communicate to your ears.

In some areas,it makes sense to get an,"all in one".If you have terrible problems including huge surges that take out your kit-Hell,I'm selling the Naim and buying cheap if that were me.

Here is the real kicker-
With the Equitech the noise floor is so low you can hear even the slightest change in mains.
This is reality and as much as I would like to change some things about the world,I can not.

Regards,
Marc