Flat Earth / Round Earth Bunkum, and the CDS3

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The Flat/Round Earth polarizing of hifi is silly and dated.

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Or your definition of 'Flat/Round' is misguided.

Paul

Tom,
You said

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By the way, the earth IS round.

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I don't think you get the joke.

What flat-earth means to me is auditioning before purchasing and evaluating components with music. You've spent nearly 3-figures on your hi-fi and didn't even audition a turntable? That is clearly insane as well as Round-Earth.

You are trying to get a CD-player to sound like a turntable. Do you understand that? You want a CD-deck that sounds more "analog", "less distorted", "more natural", "realistic", "more tonally accurate", "more weight and scale" "and more musically engaging"(all your words).

When do you ever read about someone wanting a turntable that is more clinical, harsh, digital, unnatural, thin, artificial, and un-engaging? You don't.

Digital fans are always looking for a more analog sound; analog fans are always looking for a more analog sound. Analog is the goal by everyone!

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After only two weeks listening to my CDS3,..I would guess that many, ..die-hard [analog] fans will finally make peace with this digital presentation of music.

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I can spend $20,000 on a CD player and another $20,000 on CDs and I'll be at peace? YIPPEE?!? $40,000 to be at peace?

For that kind of cash, I could hire Lynyrd Skynyrd to play at my birthday party next month. Then I'd really be at peace.

Ron The Mon,
Needle-Freak

I feel a bit like Ron. The cost of the best cdplayers are plain silly IMO. For a fraction of that cost you get a really good turntable. My God, why do they need to be so bl...y expensive?

Ron The Mon, certainly you’d admit that the digital/CD/DVD etc. format has distinct sonic and convenience advantages over vinyl. As the remaining disadvantages are engineered out, does it ever become preferable to you?

Just think, you and Charles won’t have to balance the earth anymore, and you’ll be able to settle into your chair and still replay your favorite piece...

Tom.

By the way, the CDS3 is not 20K.

Bjorne,
The real rip-off is not the players but the software. I should have said above that it would cost $40,000 for new CDs to replace my records. Why do CDs cost twice the price of a record? Because they can get it!

I buy brand-new records for literally half the cost of new CDs. Used records are about one-third the price of used CDs.

Considering the software+hardware, is a CDS3 $30,000 better than an LP-12? The only way anyone can rationalise the cost difference between an LP-12 and CDS3 is to have a small record collection.

Ron The Mon,
Needle-Freak

Tom,
What "distinct sonic advantages" are you on about? And what convenience? You can only put one disc in a CDS3 at a time unless the CDS3 is a changer and I missed something? As it turns out, I drink a beer every 20 minutes or so and have to get up anyway, so changing the side of a record's no big deal. Or are you talking of the convenience of needing a microscope to read the liner notes of a CD jacket? Or the convenience of knocking a CD case on the floor and it cracking and needing to be replaced?
You can play a CD in a car but a tape recording off an LP-12 sounds better than any car CD player. Is that a convenience or distinct sonic advantage?

As far as the CDS3's cost, I was estimating. The real cost for me to buy a CDS3/CDX2 and additional Fraims are $16,589. (I don't know sales tax in Arizona, so your cost may vary.) That's to play zero CDs. 2800 CDs to replace my 2800 records is $38,555. That's a total of $55,000.

Right now I don't have to buy anything. So the real question is for $55,000 will I be at peace?

I also priced out a brand new LP-12 with ARO, Armageddon, Arkiva, Prefix, Supercap2, and Fraims, and it is $16,560. Naim's top-of-the-line analog is identical in cost to its digital. But records are half the cost! Why didn't you ever compare a full-tilt Sondek to a Naim CD-player? The last time I compared was an LP-12/ARO/Armageddon/Troika to a CDS2. The LP-12, to all in attendance, was much better. Now is the difference between a CDS2 and CDS3 greater than adding a Prefix/Supercap to the record deck? I haven't done the demo but I doubt it. And with the new Prefix, I sincerely doubt it.

Do the demo and get back to me.

Ron The Mon,
Needle-Freak

The CDS3 is indeed a fine machine and Naim can be justly proud of there achievment. Just a shame that CD's will soon be obsolete!!

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You can play a CD in a car but a tape recording off an LP-12 sounds better than any car CD player.

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Anything is better than any car cd player ;-)

regards,

dave


Forget records and ceedees....Go FM

Well, I don't think it's an either/or situation. I like my TT but have only about 70 LPs in a new collection. They are about 1/3 the cost of a CD tho. However, new material probably does not come out on vinyl so I am happy owning my Rega P3 and CD5. Can't afford the luxury line of equipment yet. But happy with the tunes I do get. Gee, think I should turn on the system and start listening while I make dinner.

for nick, lynyrd skynyrd my all time favorite band had some members killed in a plane crash,their was a few spin off's and some of the exsisting member's have now re-formed. not a patch on the original though. check out first and last and live one more from the road. awsome!twice as good as zep .imho.

Ron,
First, my post is a statement on the Naim sound direction, not digital vs analog. Second, if you get up every 20 minutes for a beer, then you've really wasted money on your system, because in 2 or 3 hours you could be singing and dancing to a boom box... Tom.

[This message was edited by tre2fly on SUNDAY 22 June 2003 at 03:42.]

I agree with Alex's original contention. When the CDS1 came out it did some music better than a fully stacked LP12, some as good, some not as good. The CDS2 does the same thing but even more comfortably. No doubt the CDS3, as Alex say's "blurs the line between the two" even further.

I also agree with Ron that it seems nuts (on paper) spending so much money trying to achieve parity with another format for with the running costs are also substantially lower. If someone offered you a car that went as well or better than your current one for half the initial cost and used half as much gas, you would have to be an idiot not to take it.

Ron though attempts to sweep aside the inconvenience factor of LP's vs CD's by suggesting that the analogue domain dovetails nicely into a lifestyle of alcoholism. That's fine for him but I don't drink a beer every 30 minutes. It also doesn't get round the fact that LP's scratch and warp, need cleaning, and deteriorate with age and that cartridges are expensive and wear out quite quickly and it ignores the ease with which you can skip and locate tracks with a CD player, and the benefits of the remote control.

If you live in NZ you can add to the mix the fact that LP's are often more expensive than CD's and are usually not available until long after the CD release (if at all) and, for me at least, the argument for having a CD player that can compete with my turntable becomes very compelling.

I am not putting analogue down. That would be stupid. I am just saying that in my world CD is by far the path of least resistance, so what is so wrong with wanting to get it working as well as possible ?

Hi,

Ron the Mon should have come by to Windsor to hear the legendary 552/500/ACT 2 demo with a cds 2 before he cracked too many beers and made sweeping jusdgements about the CD format.

Who the hell is ron anyway? I think he is Bob the Singing Bass Player, a heroin adict from Detroit who performs regularly in downtown Windsor clubs. He is an environmentalist and does acceptable Stooges covers. There is also a car parked at the university of windsor with a license plate that says "The Mon" on it. Maybe the same guy (but this is not the car of Bob).

All I know is that a CDS 2 sounds great and a CDS 3 is no doubt much greater. Ron should try WDET live broadcats on an 01 to get a true feel for "analogue". Perhaps he would not be so much of a needle freak anymore.

dave

This entire discussion about the cost of great digital playback versus the cost of a great vinyl setup would only be of interest if all the same music was available on both formats. But it's NOT!

Over the past few years I have gravitated towards listening to jazz most of the time. I don't think anything I've played on my CDS2 in the last month or two is even available on vinyl. And some of what is on vinyl - some particularly choice ECM recordings come to mind - were digital recordings to begin with. There is no point to arguing about it anymore.

Ron The Mon hijacked this thread. It started out as a discussion of "round earth" versus "flat earth," not vinyl versus cd. If Ron wants to beat the dead vinyl/cd horse, he should start another thread.

Oh, yeah: I still own many hundreds of records, and a Naimed-out LP12. There's just not much current music coming out on vinyl of interest to me, so 99.9% of my music purchases are on cd.

"Just the facts, ma'am."

Hell if you can afford a CDS3 you damn well better have a decent turntable too IMHO.
I feel CD is more pitch stable than vinyl and certainly ballsier, but vinyl is so lovely, the bass so sweet and the treble so gorgeous vs most CD discs and a Rega P3 eats super-duper CD players (not a CDX2 though) for breakfast and costs peanuts, and vinyl is so cheap and easily available 2nd hand. Get Both! The more the merrier!

Also check out some of the websites for new vinyl. diversevinyl.co.uk and vivante.com

Joe90

Nick,
Skynyrd is currently more popular and selling more records than ever. The reason I made the comment is that they are available for weddings, parties, and fairs. What I just found out yesterday is that the Stooges have reunited and are touring! I have a mutual aquaintance with Ron Ashton and am now seriously thinking of hiring them for my birthday or an end of summer barbeque.


Minky said:

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the fact that LP's scratch and warp, need cleaning, and deteriorate with age and that cartridges are expensive and wear out quite quickly and it ignores the ease with which you can skip and locate tracks with a CD player, and the benefits of the remote control

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I have close to 3000 LPs (and have owned far more that I've traded) and not one has been scratched or needed cleaning. And what deterioration? I have records in my collection I've owned for well over 30 years; when do they start deteriorating? I spend, depending on trade allowance, about $600 every 3 years for a new cartridge. That's about $2000 every ten years. However, you're dreaming if you don't think a CDS3 will cost in excess of that with updates, recaps, and laser replacement over the next ten-years!!

And you cannot locate and skip tracks faster on a CD player than picking up a tonearm from one groove to another. CD only gives the illusion of convenience. I get the impression some of you guys spend more time twiddling buttons than listening to music. Am I the only person here who puts on a record and just sits back, closes my eyes, and listens to it front to back, with no messing around?


Dave Antonelli said:

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Ron should try WDET live broadcats on an 01 to get a true feel for "analogue". Perhaps he would not be so much of a needle freak anymore.

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Been there, done that Dave! Just because you're a newbie to the NAT-01 doesn't mean I am! I first listened to WDET on an "01" back in 1986. In fact, back then WJZZ (when they played real jazz) was the best sounding station around. WDET only since last year sound as good as they now do because of their new tower and equipment. In fact if you want to hear what your 01 is really capable of, the brand-new WCSX tower and facilities sound fantastic. Try "Litte Steven's Underground Garage" at 7PM-ish on Sundays. Motor City Blues (on after Little Steven) has some great live jams too. And the live broadcasts on "Over-Easy" (Saturday and Sunday mornings) are killer; the best I've ever heard on FM. I actually listen mostly to FM, so I am an Analog-Freak, not just a Needle-Freak.

When you finally get your 552, give me a shout; I'd really like to bring my LP-12 over and let you hear it compared to your CDS2 and hear it into the 552/500.

BTW, I played out with a band called Head Cheese in the mid-80s at California's Roadhouse. That's the extent of my Windsor playing though. If you like jazz, I do still play occasionally at Baker's on Tuesdays. For a photo, check my profile or website.



Jim,
I didn't hijack this thread; it specifically was about the CDS3 finally equaling vinyl. I simply made the assertion that you actually need to listen to a CDS3 side-by-side against the best record player to make that claim. Until then it is nothing but hyperbole and patting yourself on the back about how successful you are and able to afford such a nice toy. No matter how hard anyone tries to justify it, if CD is your primary source and you don't own any vinyl, you are not flat-earth!

BTW, What jazz can't you find? I used to buy everything jazz on new vinyl but now can't keep up as there's so much available. Certainly there are CD-only releases but I'm actually finding some jazz records that are re-releases only on vinyl. I'm probably more fortunate than most in that I have a dozen great record shops nearby. But, then again, I (and others) support them, so they have a reason to carry vinyl.

Ron The Mon,
Needle-Freak

I have only one scratched record. It dates from the days of my old Thorens, which at the time I ran with a perspex platter mat with a sharp unfinished edge. Tight spindle hole fit, removed record with platter revolving, record caught and then sprung free, landing at an angle on the edge of the mat - gouge.

Some of my records need cleaning after many years in storage - I think thats largely due to poor quality paper sleeves on the mostly NZ pressings.

The longevity argument for records was put down by the vet years ago. Longevity? What about CD rot???

Vinyl rocks. I spent this afternoon with some Mozart on DG and even enjoyed that - must get me some pointers on where to start my classical education. Guess it'll be a lot more economical with access to used vinyl.

I may yet get a cdsIII. Sure as hell won't be without my LP12 though.

Rico - SM/Mullet Audio

PS - re Vinyl more expensive in NZ than CD's - European cars are more expensive and less accessible in NZ than Japanese cars - it's no arguement for driving the cheaper option though!

Hey Rico, I wasn't putting Vinyl down, just pointing out that Ron's argument was less than balanced. His argument, that CD is more expensive and worse sounding than vinyl full stop. Therefore anyone who invests a lot of money in CD playback is mental, turned the gray areas that were the point of this thread back into black and white at the stroke of a pen and completely ignored the downside of vinyl and the benefits of CD.

Your Euro/Jap car analogy is just as bad because with it you are saying that Vinyl beats CD full stop. This is not actually the case. I have friends that buy the CD when it first comes out and then order the LP. After often months of waiting they are sometimes disappointed that the LP sounds worse than the CD. Again, it just isn't black and white any more.

Again, not a rail against vinyl, just a plea for people to be more understanding of other peoples choices.

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Finally, can someone tell me where I can get all this 1/2 or 1/3 price vinyl from? Where?? Wherever I look, if we are talking about brand new vinyl, usually the LPs are pretty much the same price as the CDs.

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John,

I don't know what you listen to, but a lot of indie rock titles (i.e., the good stuff ) are available for significantly less than the price of CDs; maybe not 1/3 the price, but still cheap ($8-12). Buying direct from the labels in the US is very cheap. I realize that you're in the UK and that VAT and shipping may reduce your savings, but for example (and there are many places like these), check out prices at:
www.sstsuperstore.com
www.subpop.com
www.matadorrecords.com
www.dischord.com
www.taang.com
Note that stateside shipping at these places is very cheap or free; I'd bet that some of this cheap shipping would extend to international shipping.
LP prices at these places are usually less, and often much less, than CD prices. Even if you go through a retailer like www.insound.com, LP prices are generally $2-4 less than CD prices. There are exceptions, I know, but they are fairly few, and often involve high quality reissues. I think I've been averaging about $10 for new indie rock LPs over the last year.

Actually, the best discounts on brand new vinyl that I've found have been on Ebay. A lot of places seem to unload back stock at prices that must be at or below cost ($6-7, e.g.). I recently bought 11 brand new, "audiophile" quality Get Back reissues for $72 delivered.

When you factor-in the ability to buy cheap used vinyl, you can cut your software costs significantly with LPs.

Cheers,
Eric

Well in my experience buying vinyl is a bit hit and miss. New releases are about £15 if you can get them. CDs are £9-10 if you shop around.

Quality control on vinyl hasnt really improved as I have had to return several new lps recently due to warping etc.

Even the vinyl specialists ie. simply vinyl can be pretty poor, good packaging though.

It will be cd for me now as it is sound for pound better value.

Alex,

Since I just posted several links to sites which, as anyone who browses them can see, collectively have thousands of LPs at prices that are the same or (in most cases), less than CD prices, could it be that the 15 quid you pay for LPs is way too high?

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It will be cd for me now as it is sound for pound better value.

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If this is true, then the CD/LP price differential between the US and the UK is really substantial. And maybe it is, but for pop genres in the US your generalization simply doesn't hold true.
Cheers, Eric

Well in the Uk it is between simplyvinyl for reissues and diversevinyl, vivante for new releases and they range between £13 -£30[Zep on Classic, Norah Jones].

Yes there are 2nd hand shops which I like to browse but quality is variable.

Thing is new vinyl is a luxury product these days and not that affordable compared to cd.

I would love to buy on vinyl but its just not that practible.