FRAIM vs MANA

Posted by: Erik on 22 October 2001

I have been waiting a while too write this just too make sure my impressions are the same after a while.

I have heard Fraim in three different systems compared to MANA and all of them gave the same inpression.

I used to have CDS2 and 52 on mana phase 7 and amplifiers and PS's on phase 4. After changing to two FRAIM racks EVERYTHING have been improved!!!
It feels like much more information are coming out and I also feel that MANA acts like a filter and the cleaning up of such a setup make the music just a bit artificial. From the beginning I felt the dynamics to be more lean but thats not thrue, it's just more information.
There is also easier to here the tune in complex music.
Instruments and voices sounds more natural and reveling.
All of above is useless if the PRaT gets worse but with FRAIM even those things improves.

A Linn KAN sounds very fast but a DBL is as fast but with much more information and more accurate. Thats the best way to describe the difference.

I still think MANA is by margin the second best, the FRAIM is just so much better.

Also posted on MANA forum.

/Erik

PS. If there was no Champagne, I would drink malt. DS

[This message was edited by Erik on TUESDAY 23 October 2001 at 07:32.]

Posted on: 22 October 2001 by Top Cat

I am reading all sorts of things about Fraim, mostly very positive. Does anyone in my area have Fraim, and (more importantly) are dealers set up to do home demos or is it a case of 'suck it and see'...

I ask because if a Fraim >= Phase 7 of Mana then I'd be prepared to consider a defection. Maybe. But only if you lot aren't exaggerating (as you've done in the past )

John

Posted on: 22 October 2001 by Mick P

John

You and you alone are the only person who can decide what rack is best for you.

Either scrounge a home visit with some nice Fraim owner or get a dem.

Fraim does sound more natural and you may be a victim of listening to years of pro Mana stuff, that you now believe its the all and be all of racking.

I think you are in for a pleasant surprise.

Regards

Mick

Posted on: 22 October 2001 by dave simpson

TC,

You owe it to yourself to try the Fraim. It out Mana's Mana.

FWIW, Mana p1 thru p5 vs. standard Fraim... no contest, easily the Fraim. I don't think the inherent values (good or bad) are going to change with more levels, at most they simply shift around to different parts of the spectrum.

...just my opinion,

dave

Posted on: 22 October 2001 by Top Cat

...but would like to at least hear it. I'm fully aware of how disappointed I've been with a lot of otherwise highly regarded kit (Naim and non-Naim) in the past, so I take everything people say on this forum with a BIG pinch of salt

IF Fraim lives up to what you are claiming then it represents a bit of a bargain, but I will have to hear it for myself to say for sure. However, even if it is better than Mana it doesn't represent as good value in the sense that it's way more expensive, even if it does (in my opinion) look rather nice.

Luckily for me another branch of my dealer has both Mana and the Fraim and so I will settle this once and for all! I did the QS Ref demo and found it uninspiring, but it deserves another chance also...

John

Posted on: 23 October 2001 by dave simpson

I'm interested in the set-up tweaks you've learned regarding the Fraim. Could you post them here or privately e-mail me.

thanks,

dave

Posted on: 23 October 2001 by Erik

TC, You say Fraim is more expensive than MANA? My MANA setup costed 20% more than my FRAIM and for me thats a bargin. I still think MANA gives You a lot for the money as well.

/Erik

Posted on: 26 October 2001 by Simon Matthews

Erik

Nice to see your posting getting a slightly less dissmissive response over here than over at mana HQ.

I loved the way the mana forum administrator has a go at someone for reaching conclusions via a shop dem, he then goes on to have a poke at the fraim in every way possible based upon his own limited experiences via - guess what - a shop dem! People moan about the naim forum but you don't see administrators over here launching such a direct attack upon a competitors product. Maybe the growing ranks of ex mana users is getting them rattled.

Or maybe 'naim' people are buying it like 'sheep' as these people LOVE to intimate - a tiring and arrogant assumption.

Still we all are 'sheep' over hear after al

Posted on: 26 October 2001 by Greg Beatty

quote:

I loved the way the mana forum administrator has a go at someone for reaching conclusions via a shop dem, he then goes on to have a poke at the fraim in every way possible based upon his own limited experiences via - guess what - a shop dem!

...what I called him on and I got banned for it.

Sheesh.

Back on Topic: I just called my local Naim dealer (deja Vu audio in northern Virginia, USA) and they do not carry the FRAIM. Had not even heard of it. I was hoping to be able to do a home dem

Has anyone tried the FRAIM with lower-level kit such as standard DVD player (but its close to a CD3.5 in performance at least to my was-filled ears) and Sony ES-series (a good bit better than the Best Buy Sony stuff)? Is the FRAIM a good first move with such a setup? I also have an LP12 and ProAc Response 2 speakers. Currently I'm using DIY supports with very little dosh invested.

- Greg

Insert Witty Signature Line Here

Posted on: 26 October 2001 by David Dever

quote:
Has anyone tried the FRAIM with lower-level kit such as standard DVD player (but its close to a CD3.5 in performance at least to my was-filled ears) and Sony ES-series (a good bit better than the Best Buy Sony stuff)? Is the FRAIM a good first move with such a setup? I also have an LP12 and ProAc Response 2 speakers. Currently I'm using DIY supports with very little dosh invested.

No silk purse from a sow's ear, but I have A-B'ed my JVC (progressive-scan, DV-S65 maybe?) DVD player on both Mana (Sound Table) and Fraim--my roommate commented immediately on how much better the Fraim sounded (stuffed onto the spare shelf under the CDS II, turned off when not in use)--better sense of space, deeper bass--and the dialogue was significantly better (stereo PCM).

Your mileage may vary.

Dave Dever, NANA

P.S. E-mail us--I'll be down in the Washington, D.C. area next month--perhaps something can be arranged re Fraim?

Posted on: 26 October 2001 by Frank Abela

It's difficult to see how a home dem can work for several reasons. Let me explain:

1. If you leave your kit on the Mana and just move one item to the Fraim, you're effectively hearing a combined effect.

2. If you hear everything on Mana and then move everything to Fraim, you've had to switch it all off which isn't fair on the Fraim.

3. If you start on the Fraim and swap to the Mana without switching off, the cables won't be dressed properly on the Mana - not fair on the Mana...

4. If you start with everything on a Quadraspire (say) and then move just one item to the Mana followed by the Fraim, you're still hearing the combination of QS and Mana/Fraim and you're subject to synergy issues. Also, the Mana is decidedly ferrous and this has a significant effect on the sound in an almost-non-ferrous Fraim (I've tried this myself - just have a system on the Fraim and listen, then move a Mana stand near it, then move it away again - the sound's worse when the Mana's close.)

So - the only way to dem this correctly is to keep the Mana far from the Fraim when testing the system, and do long-term listening tests. Not easy y'see...

Regards,
Frank.
All opinions are my own and do not reflect the opinion of any organisations I work for, except where this is stated explicitly.

Posted on: 26 October 2001 by Erik

"So - the only way to dem this correctly is to keep the Mana far from the Fraim when testing the system, and do long-term listening tests. Not easy y'see..."

I had MANA for a couple of years and have had the fraim for a couple of weeks now so I'm quite sure about my findings.

Another finding is that I had to re-tight the Fraim after a week. Maby due to our dry and cold Swedish air? I also cleaned the metal-balls with ethanol and it helped a bit.

/Erik

Posted on: 26 October 2001 by Greg Beatty

...my devilishly simple plan was as follows.

Have the FRAIM installed and live with it for a few days or as long as they will let me keep it (a week maybe?).

Having lived with the system for a good while and heard it on differing supports in the past, I'm hoping that the FRAIM - if superior - would clearly increase my enjoyment of music in my home.

If it does, I buy it.

Is this a sound plan?

- GregB

Insert Witty Signature Line Here

Posted on: 26 October 2001 by Don Atkinson

Frank A,

So - the only way to dem this correctly is to keep the Mana far from the Fraim when testing the system, and do long-term listening tests. Not easy y'see...

Nicely explained Frank, fully understood and agreed. Not easy = Difficult

But YOU, Frank, probably HAVE done it????

Your findings would be of great interest to me, and possibly one or two others. Any chance?

Cheers

Don

Posted on: 27 October 2001 by Martin Payne

quote:
Originally posted by Frank Abela:
Also, the Mana is decidedly ferrous and this has a significant effect on the sound in an almost-non-ferrous Fraim (I've tried this myself - just have a system on the Fraim and listen, then move a Mana stand near it, then move it away again - the sound's worse when the Mana's close.)

Sometimes in the past I have been sure of the effect of ferrous items like tape deck near to my gear, even though I was using steel racks.

I've just recently moved over to Base & StarBase -thoroughly non-ferrous.

The adverse effect of having the LP12 on the Starbase near CDSII & power supplies was extraordinary.

I'm not sure how far the effect extends, though. There's a steel-framed sofa-bed close to the system, and moving it further away doesn't seem to make much difference.

How far away does the Mana have to be to avoid the effect? I've borrowed a Stageline so I can get more distance to the LP12, and I want to try it on Mana Ref again to see how my feelings re this have changed.

cheers, Martin "weenie" Payne

Posted on: 27 October 2001 by Not For Me

I am curious..

Has anybody put an LP12 on a Fraim ?

How many levels would be recommended for LP12 / Lingo / Groove ?

David

Posted on: 31 October 2001 by Simon Matthews

David

Me too. Any more fraim/lp12 experiences?

Posted on: 31 October 2001 by Bosh

Only from the home dem I had. With CDS1 and Fully Naimed LP12/XX1 on Audiotech, I marginally preferred the CDS1. The LP12 in comparison seemed slower/lifeless/bloated in the bass.

The CDS1 on Fraim was significantly improved in all respects, clearer, quicker, tighter, deeper soundstage,etc. The LP12 benefited most though (in similar areas to the CDS) and in fact sounded significantly better than the CDS.

My Fraim arrives on Friday (and CDS2) - great anticipation

Posted on: 31 October 2001 by Simon Matthews

very nice.