Valhalla vs Naca5

Posted by: Chris Bell on 20 May 2003

Since us Yanks just got our Hi-Fi+ issue (yellow watt/puppy on cover), I wonder if anyone had any experience using Nordost Valhalla.

Its hard for me to accept the writers contention that the Nordost was better, because I am unclear how his system was set up. But his glowing review of the NAP300/Nordost Valhalla speaker cable cannot be ignored. Out of curiousity, I looked at what a 4 meter pair would cost me, and its $11,000! Can't say i'll be running out for a pair, but has anyone else?

Don't get me wrong, I drank the cool aid long ago and accept that Naca5 is the best...but sometimes the poison wears off long enough to wonder. Wink

Chris Bell
Posted on: 20 May 2003 by tre2fly
I've wondered a lot, and have spoken at length with Nordost about Naim's ominous amp/speaker cable warnings. They of course contend Valhalla is far better, and safe, but... Our "own" Bob Neill puts the performance of Valhalla interconnects in a most esoteric league of its own. Cost aside, it would sure be nice to have some REAL, unbiased, objective evaluations.
Posted on: 20 May 2003 by tre2fly
Ross, what a senseless question. Have you never experienced an upgrade nor pondered the next level of performance? Why even Naim is offering a brand new CDP burndy cable at more than twice the price of the original. Ask them "how bad" their original sounds... Tom.
Posted on: 21 May 2003 by mrm
paolo

The opinion of the dealers that you talked to is incorrect INMHO, there is a lack of deep bass with some Nordost cables, not all. Red Dawn for example, used to suffer from this, Red Dawn 2 does not. Blue Heaven, which I use, has tremendous base, SPM is better still, dont know about Valhalla though...its just too expensive.

Chris,

Cant help with the Valhalla question, but can tell you that I prefer Blue heaven, or SPM (if I could afford it)to NACA5. (not keen on Red Dawn though).
Dont get me wrong NACA5 is good, and fantastic value, but my ears prefer Nordost.
Posted on: 21 May 2003 by Top Cat
Have tried SPM with my little Nait-2 (I know, I know - it's a ridiculous partnership) and it's a significant improvement over the NAC-A5 that that system normally uses. The interesting thing, though, is that I think A5 is a more forgiving cable - in a kind of 'soft focus photography hiding the wrinkles' sort of way - whilst the SPM is the 'brutally sharp Zeiss showing all the wrinkles'. It depends on the nature of what you like.

Bass-wise - SPM is in a different league to NAC-A5 - it's at once tighter, less bloated, more extended and reveals more timbre and texture. It can sound light when compared to A5 on lean recordings, which I think is more to do with the relative rolled-off nature of A5 being tilted towards the bass.

I stick with A5 with my Nait-2 - the SPM is in the main system. Each has its place, and the A5 is much less likely to be 'bunnied'.

John

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."
Posted on: 21 May 2003 by Mike Hanson
Ultimately, it's impossible to get a system to sound "right", because there's no way to determine how it sounded in the first place. After it goes through all of the various recording processes, all you can expect to hear is a mere semblance of what went in. That doesn't stop us from believing that we're hearing it "the way it originally sounded", but that perception will always be a self-delusion.

We must accept that it's all about tuning our systems to sound like we want them to sound. Some people demand brutal clarity, while others want an overblown mid-bass hump, etc. Once we get used to a certain sound, we may come to believe that it's "normal". Depending on the individual, "normal" may mean "right" (resulting in satisfaction), or "normal" may mean "barely acceptable" (leading to upgraditis).

There's a related anecdote that always makes me chuckle: I was chatting with a stereo salesman, and he described a certain type customer who comes in to purchase a better stereo. After various listening tests, he walks out with a new stereo that sounds just like his old one, because he's used to the sound and automatically gravitates towards his own version of "normal".

In the end, our systems must please ourselves, and no one else. Sadly, too many of us also yearn for validation from our peers. This often causes us to climb that upgrade ladder, even though we could be happy with the status quo.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-
Posted on: 21 May 2003 by jimlevitt
The price of Valhalla frightens me, and I wouldn't dream of paying that much for a run of cables - unless is was encased in a steel body complete with an engine, transmission, and four wheels. With a stereo system thrown in for good measure!

But that is not to say that NACA5 is the be all and and end all when it comes to speaker cabling. Roy Gregory makes the point in his HiFi+ review that he didn't like the sound of the 500 when he reviewed it; and he didn't like the 300 when he heard that one either. Until he swapped speaker cables, that is. His opinion is that the new Naim amps are more advanced and capable than the previous generation, and are held back by the cabling that has been used for many years now. This is not an unreasonable proposition. For someone who has just spent $10,000 on a 300 or $20,000 on a 500, it wouldn't necessarily be a waste of money to spend a bit more than $5 a foot on speaker cables if the cables let the amplifiers really shine.

I've mucked about with interconnects far more than with speaker cables (since I'm running active ATC speakers, there are no speaker cables in my system.) I've read plenty of statements from people who say that all interconnects (or "all properly made interconnects) sound the same. My ears tell me differently. I can only imagine that speaker cables are the same way. They'll sound different. Different is not necessarily better. Sometimes, however, different is definitely better - so it's worth looking around to see if there are better sounding cables available.

Bob Neill now prefers Audience cables to the Nordost Valhalla. They're still absurdly expensive, even if half the price of Nordost. The trick is to come up with cables that outperform NACA5 at a real-world price - and then convince Naim to supply them!

We know that Naim has changed the interconnects in the past few years. The SNAICs and Burndy cables have changed too, sometimes more than once. Is there someone in the deep recesses of Salisbury charged with the brain-numbing task of listening to alternative speaker cables?
Posted on: 22 May 2003 by JeremyB
I also only recently got HiFi+.
Like Chris I was intrigued by the comment, especially as the writer was careful to point out that he checked the specs of Valhalla vs NACA5 before swapping them. Out of curiosity I also just had to check the specs, both against the Naim "safe" spec and the NACA5 spec.

The Valhalla is within the safe limits. However, the resistance is much higher than NACA5, even though each strand of copper is plated with silver, according to the Nordhost description on their web site.
One suggestion could be that the cable is not much more than an expensive filter. If you don't like how Naim have designed their amps, this would be one way to make a change. Didn't someone say that the silver plating was a trick to advance the phase of high frequencies to make the soundstage appear deeper?
Posted on: 22 May 2003 by Mike Hanson
quote:
Originally posted by J. A. Toon:
This is acheived by comparing its reproduction of an instrument to the real thing.

Now, I appreciate that issues such as room acoustics, recording idiosyncracies, and other factors complicate this;

Although I know you're convinced of your beliefs, that doesn't change the fact that you're incorrect. Using the word "idiosyncrasies" belittles the significant impact of the recording chain. The characteristics of the microphone, recording desk, equalization choices, various compression methods, additional effects, etc. all will have an extreme impact on the sound (even with recordings that attempt to keep the process as simple as possible).

As to comparing your result to the real thing, do you have the same musician with the same instrument in the same hall, within a few minutes of your stereo listening room? If not, then you can't possibly think you're comparing the reproduced signal to the "real thing". Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but this is reality.

All you can do is listen to two stereo systems, and decide which you prefer. Not all people will make the same decision, although I would be willing to admit that those devoted to the Naim sound might gravitate towards a similar system, and the same would likely apply to other camps.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-
Posted on: 22 May 2003 by Mike Hanson
John, I am somewhat of a cultural relativist. Wink As to Beethoven's "3rd" versus Cher's "I Believe", I would agree that Beethoven's work is more sophisticated. However, I would not attempt to argue which is "better".

Now back to stereos. Yes my top-flight Naim system is "better" than the Panasonic boom box in my bedroom. However, trying to suggest that my Naim system sounds "right" or "accurate" is unacceptable. I would be willing to allow the statement that my system has loads of detail, etc., and sounds good to me, but it's only "accurate" within a certain precision factor (and I've no idea what that might be, or even how to measure it).

Even though my system sounds amazing to me, I've had individuals listen to it and then tell me it's bass-shy. When I query them further, I discover that they want club-bass, and "good stereos" don't do that (because most of us consider it to be a gross exaggeration of that frequency region). As far as those club lovers are concerned, my system doesn't sound "right", and who am I to say they're "wrong".

Now to the other end of the spectrum: When we start picking one speaker cable over another, we're fine-tuning the system to sound right to our own ears. We're well past the point of "right" versus "wrong", and solidly into the realm of personal preference. If you want to convince yourself that your choice is closer to "reality", then be my guest. You wouldn't be the first to delude yourself into believing that your perception is a valid representation of reality.

Here's a final, telling example: there are many Naim lovers who would prefer a simple CD3/Nait system over a super expensive round earth one, because (as far as they are concerned) the PRaT offered by Naim gear gets you "closer to the music", even though the entry-level Naim system is nowhere near as "accurate" as the other setup. It all comes down to our personal desires and preferences.

"Better" is far too ambiguous a term to be bandied about on a stereo forum. Wink

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

[This message was edited by Mike Hanson on THURSDAY 22 May 2003 at 12:04.]
Posted on: 22 May 2003 by Rico
quote:
But his glowing review of the NAP300/Nordost Valhalla speaker cable cannot be ignored.


Jeez Chris, I thought it was a review of Nordost Cables with a few words about the NAP300 they were tested on! Perhaps it had a little do with the proportion of column inches devoted to Nordost? Big Grin

Rico - SM/Mullet Audio
Posted on: 22 May 2003 by Rico
quote:
The Naim cables are very musical, and obviously highly synergistic with the Naim components. Most other (sometimes very expensive) cables are detrimental or just "different" in the context of a Naim system, because Naim amps, in particular, are extraordinarily fussy about the cabling and its electrical properties.


Err John - could it be that the other amps are not seen as "fussy" because the manufacturer doesn't tell you to use only one cable - but that the sonics vary hugely anyway? Hence "oh, my MF amp simply sounds dreadful with anything other than Xybloof BFG9000 speaker cable".

And besides - surely a cable that is very synergistic and particularly musical fulfils its criteria - connecting amp to speaker without LOSS OF INFORMATION? And then we can all get back to listening to music.

You know, Rega pull off a neat trick. They'll sell you a Rega system. Start to finish, including cabling. Sounds pretty good, plays music. People buy this, accepting happily that this is how it all works, and how the system is meant to work. Naim Audio also pull off the neat trick of making systems start to finish, play great music, even greater success than the Rega. Different territory here though, folks sit around stroking their chins and arguing on the internet or in record shops and bars about why Naim should have done it different, or whats wrong with it. Funny world eh?

Ross is right - getting off the stereofool upgrade path is an especially welcome place to be. Especially if you're happy when you're there. Smile

PS - good to see you back here, Mike!

Rico - SM/Mullet Audio
Posted on: 22 May 2003 by Mike Hanson
quote:
Originally posted by Rico:
PS - good to see you back here, Mike!

I was never actually gone. I just didn't feel like posting all that much. Roll Eyes

-=> Mike Hanson <=-
Posted on: 23 May 2003 by Top Cat
quote:
Jeez Chris, I thought it was a review of Nordost Cables with a few words about the NAP300 they were tested on! Perhaps it had a little do with the proportion of column inches devoted to Nordost?


Interesting. I really enjoy Hifi+ but recently it's kinda turned into Naim+, so I find the above to be a a case of the pot calling the kettle black...

Wink

John

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."
Posted on: 23 May 2003 by Chris Bell
I am glad I was able to spark such a lively discussion about the reality of your hi-fi. One thing I love about the Naim forum are the discussions which evolve from geeky tech stuff to the meaning of life. Nice.

From my view, every hi fi box presents music in a different way. No two are the same. I attended CES last year and was agast at how some fancy speakers turned a simple note into a hyper detailed, out-of-tune trip down the highway of soundstage. We're talking really bad here. Only Quad got it right that day, and only because there system was in-tune! And perhaps that is the fundimental everyone should stick with. Yes, each box, and each room will sound different, but are the fundimentals there?

I am still wondering if anyone has tried the Valhalla speaker cable. Surly out of the 2500 or so members of this forum, 10 or so have invested thousands of dollars on Valhalla. Don't be ashamed, speak out. The Naca 5 police will be gentle.

Are only hi-fi reviewers using fancy cable with their Naim?

Chris Bell
Posted on: 23 May 2003 by Tarquin Maynard - Portly
quote:
Originally posted by J. A. Toon:
[Although I haven't heard Valhalla, based on my experience with the Naim cables, I think your absolutely right.


Here we go again. Pontifex Minimus, spouting on about something he has not heard and making it look like an opinion. Too big a leap, John; "I have never seen red, but because I have seen yellow I agree"


quote:
I would also be curious to hear how LAT International's cables would work, if they are electrically compatible, given their exceptional resolution and neutrality (in my system, anyway).


Amazing. You want to hear what the cables IN YOUR SYSTEM sound like Roll Eyes

quote:
As you say, the Naim cables, in my view, are rather forgiving and tend to "roll off" the sound somewhat, which works well with Naim equipment since their amplifiers tend to have a slightly forward presentation.


Based on what, bearing in mind you do not have Naim amps?

John, its for your own good. Like I said, type less, say more.
Posted on: 23 May 2003 by Tarquin Maynard - Portly
quote:
Originally posted by J. A. Toon:
We often talk about the ridiculous price of Nordost Valhalla.

_


We do??
Posted on: 23 May 2003 by Tarquin Maynard - Portly
quote:
Originally posted by J. A. Toon:
quote:
As to comparing your result to the real thing, do you have the same musician with the same instrument in the same hall, within a few minutes of your stereo listening room? If not, then you can't possibly think you're comparing the reproduced signal to the "real thing". Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but this is reality.


Mike, your position is too strong, to the point of being untenable.


Pontifex minimus; its either too strong, OR it is untenable. It cannot be both. Type less, say more



quote:
If we take what you say to its logical conclusion, you are claiming that you have no basis for saying that your Naim system is any more "accurate" at reproducing music than a cheap low-fi mass market boombox.

Ludricous!


Err, John....simply, wrong. Reads good at first, though.....

quote:
I simply do not accept that all upgrades are nothing more than "tailoring" the sound to ones own particular taste.


why else upgrade, if not to get a sound closer to ones taste????

If you upgrade a component, and suddenly hear a whole load more detail than you previously had never heard, then unquestionably it is more "accurate" at least in some limited sense.

quote:

Despite what you may claim, I _know_ that my Technics CD player creates a considerably less realistic/accurate sound than my Naim player.


Wow! Obviously you have heard the master tapes!

John, type less, say more.....
Posted on: 23 May 2003 by Tarquin Maynard - Portly
quote:
Originally posted by mike lacey:
quote:
Originally posted by J. A. Toon:
quote:
As to comparing your result to the real thing, do you have the same musician with the same instrument in the same hall, within a few minutes of your stereo listening room? If not, then you can't possibly think you're comparing the reproduced signal to the "real thing". Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but this is reality.


Mike, your position is too strong, to the point of being untenable.


Pontifex minimus; its either too strong, OR it is untenable. It cannot be both. Type less, say more



quote:
If we take what you say to its logical conclusion, you are claiming that you have no basis for saying that your Naim system is any more "accurate" at reproducing music than a cheap low-fi mass market boombox.

Ludricous!


Err, John....simply, wrong. Reads good at first, though.....

quote:
I simply do not accept that all upgrades are nothing more than "tailoring" the sound to ones own particular taste.


why else upgrade, if not to get a sound closer to ones taste???? Please explain to us.


quote:

Despite what you may claim, I _know_ that my Technics CD player creates a considerably less realistic/accurate sound than my Naim player.


Wow! Obviously you have heard the master tapes!

John, type less, say more.....
Posted on: 23 May 2003 by bjorne
Mr. Mike Lacey. Absolutely excellent!!! This should be awarded! More please!! Big Grin
Posted on: 23 May 2003 by joe90
You guys have all lost the point.
If that Valhalla is $11000 a foot or whatever, that's great but I'll take $11k of CDs and vinyl any day and stick with my NACA5 thank you very much. And btw I did a Nordost Blue Heaven 5-5 pin DIN vs stock supplied Naim cable and it was shite (the Nordost). No timing. And if there's no timing it aint music! Detail and hifi structure is great but without timing it ain't music.
Linn say it's pitch accuracy but my mate the drummer (and he's very very good) plays a pitchless instrument so that argument is out the door.
I think the reason Naim don't use Nordost at any price is that it doesn't time, and therefore doesn't warrant any consideration at all, at any price.
Posted on: 23 May 2003 by hi fi fo fum
Once again if you want to get the best of NAC A5 put some Ecosse "Z " plugs on it.....
Posted on: 24 May 2003 by Rico
quote:
Now Rico, you know you're being deliberately disingenious here.[QUOTE]

Pontifex minimus, I think the word you were grasping for (rather unsuccessfully, I observe) and missed, was disingenuous.

And of course, you are incorrect.

[QUOTE]Pretty much no other amp does this, or at least not to the same extent that Naim amps do! I can use pretty much whatever speaker cable I want with my Bryston amps, it doesn't really care, electrically speaking.


Indeed, you argued my point. Thanks! I feel its a case of simple psychology - tell the child something is not allowed - they'll want it even more! The key word in your post is want. I'm sure that's the reason so many are so opposed to the concept of a compulsory cable. There's no longer the oppotunity to indulge in this 'hobby thing' - when all we're really talking about here is stuff to enjoy Music on!

quote:
So Naim amps are "extraordinarily fussy" in a very specific way; one which is not just related to the sonic performance, but which is actually directly related to the electrical stability of the amplifier.


All pretty acceptable when no other cable times like it! Smile Of course, accepting that electrical performance is not important (use naim amps, use NACA5.... play your music.. - know all is stable, forget the specs, forget the engineering.... listen to the music) great music and a stable amp. Heaven. And no more hifi worries about which cable!

Oh - now what were you trying to explain again? Big Grin

quote:
I think the reason Naim don't use Nordost at any price is that it doesn't time, and therefore doesn't warrant any consideration at all, at any price.


Joe90 raises an excellent point! Welcome!

Rico - SM/Mullet Audio
Posted on: 24 May 2003 by smike42
I think Joe90 is about right. At $11,000 for a 4 metre run I'd rather have a 500 with Naim cable than a 300 with Valhalla.

Smike
Posted on: 24 May 2003 by Tarquin Maynard - Portly
Bjorne

Thank you. No doubt opportunities for further comment will arise in the very near future... Roll Eyes

Sorry about the double post

Mike
Posted on: 24 May 2003 by Ron The Mon
John Toon said:
quote:
Even a car stereo system has the potential to be "musical",..


This got me thinking. The stock Toyota radio in my Tacoma pickup sounded horrible. So I took a peek at the speaker wire. I couldn't believe how thin it was!!! It was in a big plastic tube and upon inspection it was smaller than phone wire; about 24-gauge, if that.

My truck is two channel stereo with the speakers in the door. I had some spare NACA5 just long enough to do the job. I installed it yesterday afternoon and it sounds superb.

However, this morning it is cold, and I went to go out and couldn't open the truck's doors! NACA5 in cold weather just doesn't flex! I had to use a hair dryer on the outside of the door just to get in. When I got to my destination, I had to climb out the window.

Does anyone know if this Valhalla cable is less stiff and more applicable to car audio use? Even though music quality is important, accessibility to my ride is more so.

Ron The Mon,
Needle-Freak