Valhalla vs Naca5

Ron the Mon the Marine

LOL

Nice!

Mike

Ron! I believe that Van den Hul has one of the best loudspeaker cables in the world: The Revelation Hybrid which is very flexible. It is very neutral, does not upset (I hope) a Naim amp, does scale in abundance and timing is on par with Naca5. The best part is that it's a lot cheaper than the Nordost. I'm not sure about the price but it's below half the cost. This way you can free up some cash, get new spekers for the truck, hit the road and enjoy the tranmissionlike bass of this cable.

Good luck

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Originally posted by Tony Coxhill:
<Getting back to the main topic of discussion>

IMHO, NACA5 is the best speaker cable in an ALL Naim system only when one values (above all else) what a Naim system does best (P.R.A.T), and when one doesn't want to dilute the effective portrayal of these particular characteristics.

On the other hand, if other manufacturers components are used in conjunction with Naim equipment, or one wishes to 'tailor' the sound to meet particular requirements, it is entirely feasible and possible to better NACA5 in those circumstances. In that scenario, Nordost Valhalla, or indeed ANY other cable, may prove to be a better option. Unfortunately, some of you here are allowing those big green illuminated 'Naim' logos to cloud your impartiality.

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When we rate speaker cables we should always factor in their price. The formula should be performance/price. If we base on this, Naim cable is pretty good.

I'm not gonna quote anybody here, it would take too long. I would like to shed some light on the discussion here.

First, the question seems to have developed into "is $11000 worth of valhalla better than $5 worth of NACA5?"
Although the original question was actually "has anyone tried the two against each other?"

OK I havent tried the cables side by side, but then I don't really need to, since if the basic stuff sucked (to me) then the top stuff won't really be any better, regardless of what it costs. Now I know a few of you will have wet your pants at that statement so let me explain:

Manufactureres don't make things from the bottom up, they do it from the top down. For example, I don't like what Linn's doing (only an opinion) and I have listened to the lot, from Classik up to the big Komri/CD12 beastie, and it's great stuff, but doesn't play the way I like it. So by starting at the bottom (a Classik or Genki/Majik) and not liking that, I found I didn't enjoy it any better regardless of how much trade-in I got for the house and family.
Same with a Denon system. I've heard the big version (ok not really stratospheric stuff but I'm trying to illustrate a point here) and to me it simply sounded like a big version of a DCD485 and PMA255 amp.
Same with Dynaudio loudspeakers, et al.
My point is that the little ones are a cheaper version of the big ones, NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND.

Now what I think is happening is that Naim have decided what they want in a speaker cable and have tried to better it but can't retain the essentials (PRAT) and get an increase in detail hifi stuff etc.
Now you can have one or the other but not both in my opinion. Is that a perfect reality? No of course not but then I'm not interested in perfection, I wanna have fun.

I heard Naim spent something like two years trying to find a better cable than NACA5 and they would have shelled out the clams to do it I believe. They've got a lot more money than all of us.
So if you try and think like Naim: "now Johnny, pace and timing etc is most important to us so go off and find us a cable that's better and we'll use that. But if it doesn't time, bin it".

Now let's address the timing thing. It IS the most important thing in music. If you don't believ me I'll illustrate:

What's the difference between you talking and you singing? Not pitch or tonal changes, as simply raising your voice up an octave and changing the tone and varying the timbre doesn't make it sound like music. The FUNDAMENTAL difference between speech and singing is the application of TIMING. That's why (shock) rappers really are singing.

I teach guitar and have been playing (stumbling along) for ten or so years and taught for about 2. Now the biggest difference between an average guitarist and a good one is really their timing since technical ability is not consistent among great guitarist. Hell BB King can't even play chords and my 12 year old student can play about 50 different ones. (btw BB admits he cant play chotrds to Bono on U2's Rattle and Hum documentary for those who care to check my assertion). Still I don't see my 12 year old getting the gig with BB's band too soon...

I also have a friend who is a stunning pianist and won pianist of the year for his age three times in a row in his city and he asserts that the real difference in good pianists is timing, not technique.

Also I have a friend who makes a living as a viloinist, for a very good orchestra (and she's only third violin and could still kill just about anyone on the planet with her playing, as most of them can) and she agrees, that without timing the whole things a waste of time. Why do you think they have a conductor? He aint there helping them to actually play, they can already do that, he or she is there to tie the whole thing together and it's their application of the swing that makes the performances so variable (yes I know different soloists do and all that but the conductor IS the head of an orchestra)

NOW, I absolutely agree with those who think that all that hifi structure stuff is important, really important. It's the reason why we don't listen to MP3s seriously and why we own Naim kit.

My assertion is that it is still secondary to timing and if that is not present in an acceptable fashion then the product up for trial is a failure, regardless of how much bass blah blah blah.

I mean listen to yourself when you start talking about that! You've stopped listening to music and are picking up your hifi crutches.

Spend the $11000 on show tickets and go and see some really good bands. Count the technical inaccuracies (there will be many) in the playing but watch the drummer very closely. If he or she's having a good'un you'll come out with a smile. If he's smashed on stuff the whole performance with flounder.

So is NACA5 perfect? No. But is IS perfect for a Naim stereo.

I look forward to your replies. No existentail crap or the meaning of life bollocks. Keep it to the topic please or I'll sulk.

Joe90

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Originally posted by joe90:
The FUNDAMENTAL difference between speech and singing is the application of TIMING. That's why (shock) rappers really are singing.

Joe90

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It's a pity they only know one bloody tune though. Is a poetry reading singing then as the best readers have a real rhythm to their voice.?

Yours in Music

Syd

Tis a pity about the rappers only knowing one tune, although NWA were hilarious.
I suppose the poetry readers are singing. Is it beat poetry?

Joe90

Ross, I agree/disagree with you at the same time.

Agree with you on the harmonic informations being one of the essentials. The musicians spend a lot of time and effort to perfect the tone (among other thing), and I believe that it is not just for pretty sound effect. Great musicians have the ability to use subtle change of tone to express the emotion of the music, and I would definitely want to reproduce that information to my satisfaction. Also, most of the times I can't really connect to the emotion of music if heard through a system that sounds tonally wrong, and this happens more often on a so-called high end $$$ system than on a boombox.

On the timing issue, you seem to imply that the listener can determine what is the accurate reproduction of the recording purely from the sonic point of view. I do not think it is possible, and that the only criterion we have for judging the quality of timing is the musical one. If the orchestra sounds like they have practiced the piece many times and there's no sign of struggle at all, then the system is reproducing the timing element well. On a system with good timing ability, a band should sound tight and together, and the musical line from each instrument should be easier to digest. In this point of view, the timing of music and hi-fi are one and the same issue - your description of bloated bass and accentuated high sounds more like a tone/harmonic issue, which has some relation to the timing (especially on the note decay, as you pointed out), but a different topic nontheless.

FWIW, I am getting less critical on the harmonic info and more on the timing. The bloated bass or accentuated highs aggravate me, but there seems to be a certain range of harmonic presentation within which most of my music sounds good, and as long as I am inside that range it doesn't bother me. On the other hand the timing thing is a bit like drugs, and once I got the taste of it I want more!

[This message was edited by joongul on MONDAY 26 May 2003 at 05:51.]

Ross

Again, timing is a critical element and a hi fi system must be able to reproduce it to be satisfying. However, as with music, it is not the only element and a hi fi system that cannot reproduce tonal nuances will not, ultimately, be satisfying no matter how good its timing.

A Nait 1 would never be regarded has having the best resolution of tonal nuances. I don't recall it having any to speak off, but by god did it play music. There are an awful lot of owners here who get an awful lot of satisfaction from them. I'm putting together a second sysyem for the bedroom and that's what I'm thinking of getting. I'd far rather tap my feet than listen to whether tonal nuances sre there or not.

Yours in Music

Syd

Ross

Certainly trying to explain what exactly 'timing' is, is very hard.
Some of the things you have said appear unfinished:

Quote:

"However, timing for a musician is a different concept from timing in a hi fi system."

Why is it different? The very word 'fidelity' means 'faithfulness' and if there was timing of some sort underpinning the music at the time of recording, surely you would want it replayed by your system.

You say:

"Timing is of course critical, because without it music doesn't work, but so are other factors."

We agree timing is critical, I think that the other factors (what are they?) you point to are there to make it interesting, allowing us to judge the secondary aspects of the performance.
To me the first thing your brain does is decide what it is listening to, then it begins to make value judgements about whether it's any good or not. But the first thing it has to decide is whether it is actually MUSIC as opposed to something else, and to me it's only timing that tells the difference between say, for example, speech versus singing.

I agree that all those secondary things like bass etc (I simply call them the "hi-fi" bits) are very important, but I agree with joongul, once you're on the timing drug, every other system sounds broken. Take away the rhythm and you're left with no foundations.

Joe90

Hi Ross

I think were probably getting our understandings of the meaning of tonal nuances mixed up. I take it to mean the sonic signature that would allow you to differentiate between say a strad and another violin or an original 50s strat and a later squire version. To me the nait doesn't do this but I can tell the difference between a violin and viola and a strat and a tele. Perhaps you take it to mean something different.

Yours in Music

Syd

Pontifex Minimus

The jump from "You are incorrect" to "personal insult" is far beyond my comprehension.

Rather than continue in such an unparalleled display of thin-skinnedmanship, I would suggest you avoid explaining that link.

I have completely lost track of what it was you were arguing for, such as it is, buried amongst your posts. I agree with Mike - less is more. Take that as an insult if you must - I am sure most other adults here would find it more appropriately explained as constructive criticism.

yours sincerely, etc

Rico - SM/Mullet Audio

some great points, Joe90. I too am a timing fanatic. I agree with Ross though, that without some of the tunefulness it still ain't music. It could be possible to have a system that "times like the proverbial bastard" yet produces severly "one-note bass" with metronome-like precision.... even in and around the swing.

For me the rythmn section have to be having a good night for me to finish the fig with smile on dial - if the bass player and drummer weren't locked-in or communicating, the best drummer in the world (yeah yeah Dave Grohl as reported consistently by Q) won't hold it all together. IMHO, of course!

PS - I saw BB King in an old theatre in Mexico City, fine gig. Can't remember any chords, probably wouldn't have noticed.

Rico - SM/Mullet Audio

I have to confess that regardless of how much I read or hear, my understanding of just what timing (or pace, rhythm, and musicality for that matter) is, remains unclear. I just know that I prefer the sound of the Naim gear in my system. These discussions remind me of drinking wine with certain afficionados. I seem to naturally pick and enjoy better wines, but have never been adept at their analyzing and defining why.

Recently, I’ve made some tremendous tweaks in my system with isolation devices and disk treatments. The quality and detail of the music has improved in quantum leaps. I remain curious about other speaker cable, but am sure pleased with what the NACA5 seems to be revealing.

Bob Neill, who to me is very grounded in his thoughts on audio, has apparently switched his speaker cable preference (and expense) from Valhalla to Au24. So curiously, I spoke to the folks at Audience about their cable and Naim amps. It turns out, theirs is low inductance, hence incompatible with Naim, unless an inductor were added to the output. Presumably, Naim leaves the inductors out for sonic purity, yet effectively use the cable for the same. Perhaps many of us would prefer the inductance built in, allowing us a wide range of speaker cable options.

My recent tweaks have allowed hearing for the first time, many new individual, harmonizing notes from different instruments, not to mention voices. Now I’m not sure what the technical term for what I’m hearing is, but to me, it’s simply more detail. It is not some audiophile or “round earth” dogma, rather instrumental to ever new levels of musical listening realism and enjoyment.

Tom.

ps. Thanks to John for acting as a Forum moderator.

I know some of the Hi-Fi+ writers read this forum. Anyone from that magazine care to comment or add to the use of Nordost with Naim?

It seems only the hi fi reviewers have done this experiment.

Chris Bell

Boys

I'd just light to clearly point out that you are listening to cables again.

Rico - SM/Mullet Audio

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Originally posted by J. A. Toon:

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Here we go again. Pontifex Minimus, spouting on about something he has not heard and making it look like an opinion. Too big a leap, John; "I have never seen red, but because I have seen yellow I agree"

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Mike, I am starting to get pretty sick of this. Your insults and childish name-calling are starting to get pretty tiresome.

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Just the facts, John; just the facts.....

Anyway, I think Pontifex Mimimus is a rather clever name, myself..

And remember this??
quote:
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Would you accept the title of "Pontifex mimimus"?
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Sure.

Better to pontificate than procrastinate

John.

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E-mail: john.toon@btinternet.com

I think the name has stuck, with your agreement. How very annoying that must be.

Feel free to post another thesis length load of guff about how evil this is.

Mike

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Originally posted by J. A. Toon:

I have absolutely no issue with you disagreeing or challenging every point I make, but I do think I deserve at least a modicum of curtesy.


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_E-mail: john.toon@btinternet.com_

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Well, yes indeed.

Courtesy can come in many forms. I feel, and from what I have read here lately many others also feel, that it is oafish to post on and on and on and on and on and on and on (rec) as if there is some prize for keystrokes. There is not. It is just plain rude; to pontificate endlessly with little relevent content is particularly tiresome.

You do make some valid points, but come on, there is a lot of....padding ( I am being polite ) in most of your posts. Make it easier on us mere mortals to see the pearls.

Like I said, type less, say more.

Mike

quote:

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Originally posted by J. A. Toon:


What a waste of time.

John.

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_E-mail: john.toon@btinternet.com_

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Have you suddenly re-read your posts?

To answer Chris Bell's question as to whether anyone has actually compared Nordost to NACA5:

I have compared Red Dawn and Blue Heaven speaker cable to NACA5 in an all-Naim system (CDX2/202/Hicap/PSU/200/Allaes) and found that IMO the soundstage simpy fell apart, and timing went out the door. I thought that it did delineate the sounds and increased aspects of the structure of the sound but because the timing was so poor, and the music fell apart, I didn't like the result. To me I'll trade detail and sharpness for timing. One of my points was that if you can't keep the timing when adding more 'hi-fi', then it isn't worth listening to. NACA5 isn't perfect, but I agree with the chap who asserted that if you like what a Naim system does, you'll stick with the plan from go to whoa.

I've also done a 5-5 pin DIN Blue Heaven vs standard CD connector and it didn't work either IMO.
Also tried the RCA things on the back of the CDX2 and I think that Naim's arguments for 5-pin DINs are correct.

I do think that Nordost cables sre very good, and the sense of detail and transparency I get out of my little Planet/Mira3?Royd Edens is awesome. But not for me in a Naim system.

Also tried Kimber 4TC and Chord and Audioquest Gibraltar too.

So there we have it, an opinion based on actual trials.

BTW
We clearly need a forum room for those who cannot separate their need to crap on and on at each other like a bunch of 13 year old girls, from answering the original question or topic. Maybe we could call it the Torture Chamber...

Ooooo I feel so ashamed.

But then, I am a 13 year old girl ( can I please express an opinion Sir? )



Mike

Have tried SPM against NAC-A5 on the end of a Nait-2 with a maxed out source and Neat Petite III speakers.

Interesting experiment. The A5 was stripped back so that one wire could connect to both terminals of the biwirable Neats. The SPM came biwired. The big impression that I got was that the Nordost was significantly 'clearer' in all ways to the A5, but that this extra clarity revealed the Nait to be a little tonally confused. The system with either cable was very musical, and there were no obvious deficiencies in either setup but for what the A5 left out.

In balance, I prefered the Nait2:A5 to the Nait2:SPM because I felt that, like the soft focus lens versus the brutally sharp camera lens, the A5 was more flattering to the Nait2 and therefore to the music. I felt that more music sounded 'good' and 'homogenous' with the A5 than with the Nordost - which allowed more of the character of the recordings - good or bad - to be heard.

As a kind of other test I also tried DNM Reson, single wire, with a length of unknown jumper cable to make up to biwire - and this kinda sat in the middle of the A5:SPM field. The music with the Reson was tighter in the bass, but also leaner. With the SPM, the bass notes had more shape and timbre, and they went deeper than with either of the other cables.

However: a couple of metres' pair of SPM is dearer (even s/h) than it would cost to buy a Nait-2, a CD3.5 and 5m of A5. I can't believe that anyone would serious contemplate using such a pricy bit of wire with a Nait-2; the only reason I tried it is because I had some in my possession.

The telling fact is that I use A5 in this system, though the demonstration revealed the SPM to time better, go deeper, show more timbre and transparency and scale the dynamic peaks. All kind of round-earth stuff. However, the SPM also shone too revealing a light onto the Nait-2 and its shortcomings.

A case of using an appropriate tool for the job, I suppose - you wouldn't use racing slicks on a VW Golf GTi, fine though it is. However, you wouldn't use remoulds on a track car!

Just get on and accept that A5 is a bargain; it's certainly not in the same league as the pricier Nordost - but let's face it, it's cheap and it does a sterling job with a Nait.

John

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."