Single vs. bi-wiring and that copper bar-- revelation

David, Your experience doesn't surprise me at all. It's exactly what happened when I biwired speakers I used to have (Acarian Alon IIs) with double runs of NAC 5. They simply exploded into a whole new musical life. I think the message is that most speakers designed to be biwired should be, although with some it may not matter so much.
Don

You know-- what shocked me wasnt so much that there was some improvement without those copper bar things.

It was the MAGNITUDE of that improvement. Those stupid little bars screwed up like 20,000 bucks worth of equipment.

I wouldn't have bought this if someone told me that they could do this. I would have taken it for another annoying "tweak" that wont work but a little.

But it really was like getting my old speakers back. Now I am wondering about using naca-5 for the jumpers. Would this be better than an F set-up or the same?

Also, if you do that f thing, what bananas go on the lower part?

OK, OK, I shall replace my little copper things forthwith.

Thanks, David.

PS can you email me wrt to 140vs.250 or even post your feelings here?

I wonder how much better Mystiques are using 140 vs. 250 amps.

To be honest Mike, I am loathe to post my thoughts until I listen to the sistem a bit in its current state.

I believe the cause was these copper jumpers, but the sistem sonded HORRIBLE on turn on-- thin and bright with NO bass etc. This caused me to question whether it was broken in transit or what. It settled in a few hours but still sucked.

I made sure my amp was now connected correctly (to the Hi and then the hi to the 72).

But then I took out those copper bars and things became MUCH improved. I had not used those bars with the 140 sistem and just put them back briefly cause I thought they'd be more convenient and neat).

However-- it concerns me that you have been using these bars and feel things are dandy. Now again, i am questioning what the deal is.

My current sistem should BLOW YOU AWAY with its goodness-- not leave you asking if your girlfriends NAD/wharfdale 300 dollar system wouldnt be a better option!

As it stands-- it seems like all is well again, but I only got to listen to it in this state for a half hour or so late last night... I am working today, so i will let you know shortly if all is alright.

I refuse to review anything without getting things correct here. Bear with me another couple days to make sure I have things sorted.

Like I say-- it's not that this new stuff wasnt as good as the old by a BIT or something-- things sounded like absolute sheee-ite! (now even if you dont feel a 250 is much of an improvement over a 140-- it should't SUCK right?? Especially with a newly re-capped 72).

CDS2 is now running into my 72-- 72 into my Hi-- 250 plugged to the high. That's right now Mike... right???

I'll let you know. You know-- come to think of it- when i had my sistem connected wrong i.e 140 and Hi running into the 72 together, things sounded fantastic.

Then I reconnected things "correctly" and that's when it started to suck. But I believe it was at that time that I also re-inserted the copper bars because I was concerned my bi-wire connections were too frayed. I sent my Hi for a check up with the 72 (which they re-capped) cause I thought it might be damaged and that might be the reason.

But-- it came back with a clean bill of health. So maybe it was the stupid copper bars all along! Also-- how long does it take a pre to break-in again after re-cap??

Khoi--

Red is to pos. on both terminals at the amp and red is to red at the speaker interface last I looked.

did you mean anything beyond this?

Sorry Dave, I didn't realise your sistem was up for barely a day.

I'm sure it's not the copper bars that's the problem. I've just replaced mine with some Ecosse wire that Steve @ Hififofum provided for this purpose (I was able to mess up his showroom last summer when I was in Toronto).

Anyways, there was a little improvement, but nothing near "major".
Not even sure it was worth going through the trouble of stripping that dastardly cable

Don't sweat it, your newly recapped gear needs time to break in again. How long it will take, I'm not sure; I'd guess you should treat the recapped stuff as new and allow for a few weeks for break in.

Mike-- Dadgumit--I'm tellin' ya I heard a MAJOR difference after removing those bars.

Maybe I had one misconnected or something, but I heard it.

Could the sistem really suck THAT bad though just from need for break-in???

Right- it must have been mains or the CDs, but with more listening, I've found that removing the bars in fact does make a nice difference. Bravo!

Perhaps your CDS2 is doing stuff that's choked off by those bars that my CDX doesn't even attempt?

Mind you, the bars that Neat uses (on the Mystique at least) are pretty reasonable compared to the jynormous glod plated links other companies use. I've never heard Mystiques bi-amped, but I surely single wire posts would benefit more users.

Warm up/break in is the most likely suspect I can think of. When I plugged in my 72/140 for the first time, I felt like I'd been had and wanted my old Rega Mira back! After a few weeks it the change was major. It's a catapillar to butterfly type of metamorphosis, as far as I'm concerned. Same goes for my CDX.

Oh, are your soundbases perfectly set up? Badly set up Mana screws the sistem up to no end...

say, things are starting to sound even better. Perhaps I can put the other part of my problem down to the break-in of the 72 after re-capping.

how long does this generally take and do you need to play music or will leaving it on suffice?

Good to hear, Dave. Leaving it on will suffice.

Break-in for a recapped 72 (same for 12 to 62): 48 hours playing radio at 1 o'clock, no mute (unplug you amp or speakers). Then 1 week left on. The 48 hours of various music/voices make a diference in mids, they come faster.

Recapped Hicap must power a preamp (no need to play): 3-4 days to break-in.

Power amps: playing loud music (12 o'clock) with very fast transients and high dynamics, no speakers attached for 2 days; 2 days playing music at normal level (9 o'clock) with speakers; a few loud sessions in the following days will finish the process. Regulated amps (250,135) are longer to break-in (multiply days by 2).

This figures, if they have just been recapped, no active parts have been changed.
If you leave them on, not playing, 2 to 3 weeks.

Emmanuel

All opinions are my own, and reflect those of the organisation i work for, even if not stipulated.

Manu, I don't know how good is the idea of running in an amp without load. No current go trough the gear that way I believe.

That's the idea, the amp is not working hard. The small caps (tantalum) are working normaly as DC stoppers with a strong signal passing though them. It would be too hard for the amp to run with speakers at this volume level (too hard for speakers and ears to). I have noticed tantalums like beeing broken-in with high signal level.

Emmanuel

All opinions are my own, and reflect those of the organisation i work for, even if not stipulated.

interesting.

Eric, what do you use to F the Naca? What kind of connectors??

Also, I do like to play with other speakers from time to time. This wont ruin anything for that, will it??

Use the standard Naim bananas, without the black box, of course.
I think there are no other choices, they are the only one i know to be soldered at a 90 degree angle with the cable.

Emmanuel

All opinions are my own, and reflect those of the organisation i work for, even if not stipulated.