Soundbase setting up advice needed

Time for an update.
Last night I took home my 40mm thick polished slate slabs. First thing was to move the SBL's off the soundbases. Things have been settling in quite nicely, but the treble remained a bit noisy and gritty - the bass however was light yet extended way down, and very separate and clear. The bass was fantastic. Musical enjoyment was also way up the scale, as I could listen to music and really get into the songs and emotion.
So..the SBL's come off. Now, one Soundbase was really planted onto the floor, not dug in, and the board was nicely tuned. The other was planted on the floor OK, but the board had a rattle. HHHmmm....I thought I had tuned this out!
Anyroadsup....
Using Tom's info (originally Vuk's I believe), I did the three screw thing, two at the front and one at the rear, 6mm ball bearings and the slate slab. Perfectly level of course. On with the SBL's.
First impression is that the mid to treble is fantastically clear, musical, sparkling (hadn't noticed before, but the glimmer had gone), but the bass had completely gone. The soundstage is much wider, really, hugely improved, and the performance is slightly further away, like I am a couple of rows further back than before, and this I think is a good thing as it's a much bigger musical picture (more "grown up" as Julien would say). I am a bit upset that the bass has gone - not just the massive extension I had with the Soundbases, but all of it - just isn't there at all!!
The power amps were off for an hour during all the fiddling, so I'll give it a chance to warm and settle in and will try again tonight. I wasn't really expecting this at all.
I am tempted to set up the Soundbases on the slate slabs, as this will be loads easier than before, what with a perfect suface, but I need to get used to what I have first. I know Mana don't recommend anything under a Soundbase, but I don't agree that there are any rules here.
So...not an unqualified success, but aside from the bass, a magical transformation.
It appears that great soundstage and treble will not live happily alongside extended or even good bass. I'm not sure which I would accept - I want it all!
I might take up the timber suspended floor and install a concrete slab if I can't get this to work.
I'll give it a week to settle.

Rasher,
i now have my soundbases (under SBL's) on a concrete floor, which helps no end in setting up. Following your thread I tried taking them out to see if I'd miss them. Result? Oh Yus, so they went straight back where they came from. I did have to re set them again, which is the only problem. Oh well...

Rodney - If you haven't yet read this thread, then you need to. It may help with an alternative to the Soundabases you can't get.

Andy - I fear the worst , but did you have the noisy treble with them in? Did it change the treble at all?

Gramaphon.

Suggesting that a stand needs a few days to settle in is utter crap.

this is 'getting used to the sound' crap that is bantered around taken to the limit.

Its a stand. If its square and on the floor what possibly could change over a few days?

The best I can think of is mabye temperature changes (Although I would argue that any human has the ability to hear these types of differences) or the weight of the equipment pushing spikes into the floor.

This is stretching things to the xtreme though. Anyone suggesting giving hifi stands a few days to settle in, needs to step back and consider if nerdery has gone a bit to far

Rasher,
I had the treble problem you describe before I put the 'bases in. I have moved house and changed floors since then. I found the soundbases to give more than they took away, especially in the bass. My mind was actually made up re this when I changed CD player.
I don't subscribe to 'running in' etc of such things, to me the improvement was immediate and obvious - as it was to my wife, and a mate who'd popped round.
My new house is quite modern, and the living room is quite well furnished but I still feel that the room has quite alot to do with the sound of my system (understatement deliberate!).
If it were me, i would set the 'bases up properly (take your time re this) and leave them a while. Then take them away. i feel you'll put them straight back again.
Also, have you thought about putting more than one under each SBL. I haven't done that yet but wonder at the potential benefits of doing so...
Also, would be interested in how you get on putting them on the slabs...

John,
Totally agree with you re the levels of mana and the setting up. But it's not easy on a wooden floor IMO. It's really easy to set them up on a concrete floor tho

What about the tightness of the nuts ? Is this as sensitive as it is with the racks ?

Allan

I know it sounds lame, but the carpet and underlay is quite thick, so when the soundbases were pressed through to the floor, they just rose up again. The boards can twist, so getting the whole to behave has been a real trial. It needed loading down before tuning - which is near impossible.
I came back last night around midnight, 24 hours after the initial setup, and basically there is little difference, but maybe a fraction of the sparkle has gone and maybe a little bass has come back. I suspect this is due to the amps warming up again more than anything else. I am keen to try the soundbases on the slabs, and will try both on the screws, and with the slab sitting on the carpet. I know the Mana effect can be superb, and do not need to be convinced of it - I just want to get the right result.
I do believe in settling in of these things mainly because the stresses of the screw threads in the floor will eventually seat, and the frame of the speakers will also slightly ease to distribute the weight onto the spikes. All materials flex to a certain degree and have elastic properties, no matter how stiff we make them. It may be minute, but it happens, and if Mana works, then that proves it. If it didn't, tuning the boards wouldn't be so important.
I will get there eventually.

Rasher,
I'm sure someone else would have mentioned this so If I'm repeating this I apologise...
Have you tried cutting a X in the carpet with a stanley knife?
You can sell this to your other half easily because in my experience it actually prevents the twist/pile in the carpet flattening so aiding the spike going all the way through.
My wife looked at me as if all rights would be refused for a year whilst I was cutting a hole, but when she saw the effect afterwards I was reprieved.
Just trying to help...

Good point Andy - no I haven't although it had been suggested. It just scared me. Due to the outlay, I think I've got to get a result with the slabs right now.

Rasher,
if you cut the carpet underneath where the slabs are to go, you can do a proper comparison. Do 4 x's for the spikes of the bases, and then knowing what luck i have with these kind of things the soundbases will fit in fine, and then you'll be in a quandry...

on ballbearings on crosshead screws into floor.
Tomorrow I put the Soundbases on top just to see. This is now working out really well, but there may be more to come.

Rasher,
good to see its working out ok...
What improvements have you noticed?

Basically, the treble clean up has widened the soundstage and set everything further back, so I'm in front of the performance rather than being on the front edge of it. Familiar tracks sound slowed down, which I think is a symptom of gaps between note being developed further, giving the impression of slowed tempo. Bass extension has diminished sadly, although some might say has lost emphasis which shouldn't be there - but I like it and want it back! Overall I would say a success, and my listening is concentrating less on teh lack of bass and getting used to the other improvements. I have to say that the Mana Soundbases on their own are phenomenally good, and should be supplied by Naim as part of the SBL package IMHO, although I still argue that they are a bastard to get right if you don't have an easy floor. Tomorrow I put the Soundbases onto the slabs to see what happens. I am expecting the world to stand still for a moment. My expectations are very high. There may also be a B&Q moment when I decide to try concrete slabs too. To be honest, I just want it to be wonderful and never have to fiddle again. I am now very interested in Mana rack for the system however. I am converted in that respect.

Rasher,
I must admit I am torn between Mana and Fraim, but only because i've not tried Fraim yet. I like my Mana rack (there's a piccy of it on the 'systems' thread If u r interested), and It will be alot cheaper to purchase, say, another 4 shelf unit and split the brains from the brawn, ratrher than a full on change.
I resign myself to borrowing a fraim when funds allow...
I might also try going up 'a phase' by putting another sound base/stage under it...
Keep me inf'd on the stages on slate experiment please...
ta.
andy

The reason I'm tempted by a Mana rack is because I can pick a used one up for a few hundred quid, and I'm sure the additional £1400 needed for a fraim wouldn't be VFM in comparison. Anyway, I don't have £1800 for a Fraim. I need a CDX2 first.

Rasher,
Can't fault your logic re the CDX2. I fully recommend one - mine is about 2 months old now and really on the boil...

Spent about an hour on each soundbase to get it perfectly set up. I used the lifting the front edge trick to get it absolutely fine tuned to a fanatical degree, and then the boards too were treated to the same "I'm only going to do this once" standard.
Interesting result in that the bass has come back with it's extended range, but not as pronounced as before. The Treble is clear and sweet and the PRaT is spot on. The only downside is that the soundstage has shrunk again to being barely wider than the speaker spacing, whereas with the slabs alone it was panoramic. I am also pushed forward into the soundstage, which is not as I like it.
After a couple of hours, taking a break and then coming back to it, the soundbases have come out again, and the bass has not diminished to the degree that I would have expected, but the soundstage is restored.
My Soundbases will now go up for grabs. Nice try.
I suppose my conclusions are that soundbases are better than a speaker on the floor by a mile, but the carpet problem will prevent absolute tuning unless you have no fears as regards to taking a knife to the (new) carpet.
I may try putting the slabs directly onto the carpet and dispensing with the three screws and ball bearings, but imagine it will be not as good.
I think that if the carpet was not a problem, the soundstages on their own would be what I was looking for, but it isn't to be sadly. Still...the slates I think are a success. The panoramic soundstage is wonderful, and I want that more than anything.
(you wil notice that I knew I was going to do this and had the slates made to the dimensions of the soundbases - always thinking ahead )

Ooops - surely the lock nuts on the upward facing Mana spikes should be fitted on the top side, not from underneath......perhaps this is why you are not happy with the result?


From Mana set-up FAQ

"Now on the Sound Bases, Sound Frames and Sound Stages, the locknuts for the upward spikes go on the top of the frames, i.e., you should be able to see them from the top. "

Jo

I have the instructions and have read them carefully. How could I have missed that????
I'm in tonight, so I will be trying again.
Thanks Jo.

I have to say that yesterday morning I was playing some music to my daughter, and I was very impressed with the depth and solidity of the bass with just the slabs. It really is very good without the Mana, but I haven't come this far to leave this untried. The slabs cost £55, and as far as they are concerned, they are great VFM.

Pearcy wouldn't have made that mistake

Nah - nah - nee - nah - nah....
You gotta laugh eh?!

Rasher,
you could have put a picture up on this forum showing the mana correctly installed, and someone then replies saying "have you tried it with the nuts underneath?"

Tee Hee

Quote from Mana forum:
"Now on the Sound Bases, Sound Frames and Sound Stages, the locknuts for the upward spikes go on the top of the frames, i.e., you should be able to see them from the top.
On the Mini Table/Reference Top, Sound Table, Equipment racks and dedicated Speaker stands, all the locknuts on the upward spikes go on from underneath, i.e., you should not be able to see them from the top."
I can see where I went wrong.

Yup - confused me as well and I got it wrong first time round....

Jo