Speeding On The M4 In Wiltshire !!!!

[e.g. The Ex RAF Base Gatow for instance down the road from here, [/QUOTE]

BF,

Just to digress a bit...

Your mention of RAF Gatow has brought back memories of a week I spent there in 1973 flying around the city every evening reminding the East Germans/Russians that under the partitioin agreement we still had access to the flight paths.

We even went through Checkpoint Charlie one day (in a coach, not an aeroplane) and had a wander around East Berlin. Very drab compared to West Berlin but what was most strange was the people staring at us in our RAF uniforms as if we were from Mars or somewhere, certainly another world where they had no access to.

One of the things that surprised us all was that the East German army still did what we call the 'goose-step' something that my generation associated with the Nazis (I now know that it went back much further than this). At the war memorial in Karl Marx Strasse (I think) you could feel the vibration through the pavement. I must admit it really spooked me, I was just not expecting it.

As an avid reader of spy novels - John Le Carre, Len Deighton etc., my imagination was working overtime.

A memory I will never forget.

Andy

Brilliant Sir, I'm glad I made your day.

Fritz Von Cornwall where's that then ?

Andy.
They only need to display "speed camera" signs so they can be anywhere, and you wont see a flash as these guys hide in vans. I know this as I was lucky enough to donate to the Wiltshire Police xmas fund by getting a fine for doing 49mph on a 40 mph dual carridge way in Swindon (near the new Asda) and there was only a parked white Van with the basterds taking snaps, earlist I knew I had been caught was getting home 3 days later and a nice letter from them, oh by the way this dual carridge way is new and has had zero accidents, so it makes you wonder doesnt it ? The rules state that Cameras are only allowed in accident black spots !!
There you go Mick, another rule that the authorities seem to ignore !!
Phil

Fled

You were 9 miles over the limit.....your choice.

There are cameras everywhere now a days and anyone who goes over the limit is taking a chance.

Regards

Mick

Fritz

Why do you continuously moan about what is happening in the UK, when you are sitting on your ass, doing nothing in Germany.

Why don't you work in Germany, contribute to their society and then you would have less time to moan about us lot over here. We would all be happy.

Regards

Mick

Why should we need to see where the speed camera's are?

You wouldn't see a Traffic Cop in a plain car... until it was too late, trust me.

andy c!

What exactly is speeding anyway, I know we've all been here before but this M4 thing is really taking the piss. I drive 800-1200 mile a week so feel experienced enough to comment. I see the dumbest ridiculous reckless unbelievably dangerous and risky things on the roads and NONE of them are speed related. Excessive speed accounts, in a top ten of accident cause, at 7th. Lets concentrate on things that would make a big difference; I’d love to see many more police on the roads to catch these morons and yes speed in the WRONG place is a problem. I recently drove from near Gloucester to Penzance in one hit, I was tailgated, undertaken on the hard shoulder (yes) saw aggressive road rage, lane hogging, people who leave it to the last 30 meters to leave the motorway and swerve across all 3 lanes, a bloke writing something down whilst I overtook him and someone poring a drink into a cup – I kid you not. On the whole journey I saw 3 or 4 police cars – all parked on bridges or ramps pointing their gadgets down the road doing absolutely nothing for road safety. Noticed the number of bad HGV deaths, accidents and road closures lately? They are bloody lethal now they are limited to 56mph. Interestingly the police themselves are the worst culprits – I have seen terrible driving by them on the motorway, look at this as well…….

Chief Supt Les Owen, Head of the Met's Traffic Division, has been caught speeding (or rather, his driver has - yes, it's another one of those cases) at up to 82mph in a 40mph limit because he was late for a meeting.

Whilst the police driver would have been perfectly safe at these speeds, the hypocrisy of the "don't do as I do, do as I tell you" culture was quite incredible. I suggested that if a member of the public had done something similar he'd get the whole library, not just the book, chucked at him.

Here's the story from the Telegraph...

Anti-speed police chief clocked at 82mph in 40mph zone By Andrew Alderson, Chief Reporter
(Filed: 17/04/2005)

The head of the Metropolitan Police traffic division faces disciplinary action after being driven in a marked police car at 86mph - at times at more than twice the applicable limit - because he was late for a meeting.

Chief Supt Les Owen, who has launched a series of anti-speeding campaigns in recent years, was being driven in busy built-up areas of north-east London on his way to collect a colleague for a meeting at the force's traffic headquarters near Buckingham Palace.

The vehicle, a Vauxhall Omega, sped along parts of the North Circular and surrounding roads at 82mph in a 40mph limit. The vehicle, which occasionally used its emergency siren, hit its top speed of 86mph in a 50mph limit.

Details of the case can be revealed by The Telegraph - five days after Mr Owen's police driver successfully appealed against an earlier court decision to give him six penalty points on his driving license.

Speaks volumes I feel, freedom and the responsibility goes with it are going down the pan in this PC Blair ridden country of ours. I often drive to Exeter from home down the M5 at 10 or 11 at night or 6 to 7 in the morning, you can see for ever, often hardly see any cars at all – I drive at 80-85 fine. Do the same thing in the rush our or rain and you’d be mad to attempt 70 !

Martin

Martin,
Thats an interesting story.

Didi it say what the meeting was for? (although with modern comms I can't see a reasonable excuse for the chief's driver getting off that charge...does not send a good message, does it?)

Could you tell me where you get the figure 7th from etc please? i would be interested to read that research for training purposes...

Re the four cars parked on bridges, the question you need to ask about that is what are their priorities, v what are easy wins?

I agains refer to my earlier question - why does it matter that you are warned of the camera?

Why is it important that the motorist be 'given a chance'? (this isn't just re speed, but bad driving in general)

If you want to step outside the parameters imposed re driving manner etc, don't blame those who catch you for doing so. It's about accepting responsibility, or am i missing the point (again)?

andy c!

quote:

Originally posted by Mick Parry:
Chaps

You all know the rules before you turn on the ignition key. If you are daft enough to drive at over 70 mph, don't waste your time coming up with excuses when you get your 3 points.

Drive at 69 mph and you will be fine, drive at 71 mph and you will be playing a game of russian roulette.

Your choice.

Regards

Mick

Actually, it's usually about 78-80 but I take your point and agree fully. So that takes care of speeding. But what about road safety? Nicking people doing 80mph on the M4 does what exactly to make the road safer? Does the camera automatically apply the brakes, flash some driving ability into the culprits, increase their distance from the car in front, make them put their book/mobile/thermos away or stop them weaving across all three lanes and instantly reveal any vehichel hovering in their blind spots? Or is it just about decreasing the average speed by 4mph and making lots of money - which won't be ploughed back into road safety or driver training?

I've got no sympathy for speeders (even on Motorways). But I also have a hard time believing people who don't tell the turth and hide behind an argument which is not supported by any figures published in living memory.

My turn to try the corridoor of fear tomorrow. Since it's now the safest place in the West Country I might even stop and have a picnic.

Cheers

Harry

HTK

Have a few glasses of wine with your picnic and drive at 60. The cameras won't have a clue you are over the limit !!!!

M25 southern bit - Friday evening 7pm - inside lane

Heavy traffic on all 4 lanes, stop start, you know the drill, when suddenly a little Smart car comes belting down the hard shoulder, too impatient to queue in the traffic, probably late for his dinner or his favourite tv show. A really stupid and highly dangerous maneouvre.

I've come to really dislike driving, I will take the train in preference to it anyday. At least you only have to put up with people yelling into their mobiles.

Andy

Harry,
I have put enqs in place to obtain the info you require, including causation factors. Dependant on where the enqs are in relation to each (they are both over two years ago - so you may argue these are irrelevant anyway!) I will get back to you.

The argument re injuries being relevant is important to consider here. The offences we discuss (due care, dangerous driving, use of mobile phone, tail gating etc) are preventative. In other words they don't need an injury to be caused before prosecutions take place.

With referance to experiences of dealing with 'fatal' crashes alone, I am going to be vague in order to protect relevant parties here, but the following were actual causes:

driver fatigue
drink/drugs coupled with not maintaining proper control/exceeding speed limit
medical condition causing loss of control
excess speed 'for the conditions' x 2 (one was exceeding the limit, the other was not)

As regards the M4 I don't know the stats that point to the reaons for speed enforcement. If you wanted to do so the local police will provide you with the information. you only have to ask them (phone their public relations office).

My point re all the above is they were all indipendantly witnessed, and all were preventable with common sense and the correct application of taught driving standards.

andy c!

Andy:

ROAD ACCIDENT CAUSES

Inattention
Failure to judge other's path or speed
Looking but not seeing
Careless and reckless behaviour
Failure to look
Lack of judgement of own path
Excessive speed

Source: Department of Transport

from safespeed.org.uk

This is an extremely misleading graph.

Firstly, it could be that there has been an improvement in Germany after the massive rise in road deaths that followed the fall of the Berlin Wall.

Secondly, then and now UK roads are considerably safer than German roads - as indicated by the deaths/number of vehicle statistics. This is pretty obvious to most people who spend any time driving in the two countries.

Regards
Steve M

PS: There are hundreds of sites that publish the statistics. Just type 'road deaths uk germany' into a search engine.

quote:

Originally posted by 7V:
This is an extremely misleading graph.

yes but if you compare countries that have introduced and now rely on speed cameras to do their policing to those that haven't you end up with the same result.

On the A51 about 5 miles North of Lichfield the inhabitants of the villages of Longdon, Longdon Green and Upper Longdon situated several hundred yards from either side of this road have finally got their way.

The speed limit is to be cut from 60 mph to 40, a crossing is to be installed and a short section of dual carriageway (where there are no houses either side at all) is to be narrowed to single carriageway. In addition a couple of speed cameras will be erected to enforce this lowered limit.

The reason for all this is that the locals want their kids to be able to cross the road in the morning without fear of being run over by vehicles flying through at 60+ mph.

I agree with the crossing. I agree with a lowered speed limit immediately either side of the crossing.

I do not agree with the speed limit being cut along a nearly two-mile section of road that gently winds between the villages, about a mile either side of the crossroads and the proposed pedestrian crossing.

I do not agree with the narrowing of the short dual carriageway, once built as a bypass around London Green, because this is the only truly safe overtaking opportunity on the entire 17-mile stretch of road between Lichfield and Stafford.

I do not agree with the speed cameras - drivers should be looking out for pedestrians not gazing at their speedometers as they pass through the camera sites.

If the presence of pedestrians alongside this road were such an issue (I've never seen any, but then I rarely travel along this road immediately before or after school hours) then surely, to accompany the 40 mph speed limit there should also be street lamps.

There are no plans to erect any street lamps - simply because they cost money instead of raising revenue.

Camera partnerships are very adept at manipulating local opinion in order to serve their business ends...

A guy living in one of the Longdon villages told me yesterday that whilst he thought all speed cameras really should be abolished, if they are going to be everywhere else then he feels Longdon residents are missing out if there aren't any cameras on the main road more than 1/2 a mile away from where most of them actually live! It's an inverse NIMBY*ism if you will.

I've said before that hand-on-heart, if I believed that cameras actually saved lives I'd be all for them.

The fact that the annual death toll on UK roads has not dropped below the 3500 mark since cameras were first introduced - and the fact that at one camera site in seven the accident rate has actually increased, suggest that their effect on road safety is nil or is possibly even counterproductive.

We are advised to allow more time to complete our journeys at lower speeds or face ever increasing risk of losing our licences. This has had no benefit in reducing deaths and serious injuries on our roads.

So what happened to progress - the notion of shortened journey times as well as improved safety?

It's all an ill wind that just brings the concept of respecting the law into disrepute as freedom of movement is being curtailed more and more in order to achieve the socio-political ends of our elected dictatorship.

*Not In My Back Yard.

quote:

The rules state that Cameras are only allowed in accident black spots !!
There you go Mick, another rule that the authorities seem to ignore !!

The authorities should lead by example if they wish for the rest of us not simply to begrudgingly obey the law but to respect it and gladly abide by it.

Where camera partnerships flout the law wrt giving adequate warnings of the presence of speed cameras (fixed or mobile) or if they are located where there have been no accidents (eg. on new roads or straight roads with good visibility and no peripheral hazards) they should forfeit one month's profits with the proceeds being distributed equally amongst all those ensnared by cameras in the previous month.

quote:

why does it matter that you are warned of the camera?

Why is it important that the motorist be 'given a chance'? (this isn't just re speed, but bad driving in general)

If you want to step outside the parameters imposed re driving manner etc, don't blame those who catch you for doing so. It's about accepting responsibility, or am i missing the point (again)?

Andy c,

The role of the police is to prevent offences being committed not to catch people in the act. For this reason I'm opposed to unmarked cars and cameras without warning signs or reflective markings upon them.

Speed limit enforcement is about safety not revenue, is it not?

Entrapment should be a criminal offence in itself.

So a GATSO takes 2 photos of a car mowing down a child at 40 mph in a 30 at the camera site, but there were no warning signs, nor were their any repeater signs in what used to be a 40 mph limit.

The speeder gets caught, 60 quid goes into parnership coffers (assuming the camera evidence isn't used to prosecute the driver for death caused by driving withoout due care) but the child still dies. The combination of camera warning signs with the limit posted would most probably have prevented such a tragedy.

At 1 in 7 camera sites there has actually been an increase in casualties.

I'm only guessing but a probable cause is drivers losing control of their vehicles when they spot the camera and its too late - due to not knowing the limit and/or not being forewarned of its presence.

How many drivers doing 40 in a 40 limit hit the brakes when they spot a camera because they fear the limit may be 30?

The repeater limit signs should also be posted.
on the camera itself.

A friend of mine who is actually a copper got done by a camera for doing 40 the day the limit was reduced from 40 to 30. The camera itself had been there for at least two years. The 40 repeater signs had been covered up with bin liners and one of these black plastic bags actually got blown off in strong winds about half a mile after the camera site.

The road itself has no buildings at all to the left, and to the right there are houses separated by both another road and railings running parallel to it.

He attempted to appeal against the penalty but he was not successful.

I was being followed for miles by a clearly marked Police van full of large dark figures recently. They had been sitting right on my tail making it difficult to slow for villages. There were many opportunities to overtake on the very wide road, with occasional dual carriageway, but they chose not to take them. Finally they overtook me and continued at an estimated 10-15mph over the speed limit off into the distance. I was just grateful not to be tailgated any more.

In Denmark they have to announce beforehand where they are going to site unmarked police vans with radar speed detectors and cameras.

Many hundreds of villages and towns here have big speed indicator boards at their boundaries. With large red numerals and flashing yellow lights if a vehicle exceeds the speed limit. The flashing lights must be an awful irritation to local residents. With the speed limit usually 50kph (30mph) I have seen vehicles registering over 100kph on the local village speed warning sign. Which is situtated just before a sharp blind bend. They are travelling so fast into the village that the screen doesn't have time to react before they have driven past. The signs also have a slow refresh rate which produces false random readings on following vehicles when a lead vehicle exceeds the limit. So the innocent vehicles behind get all the flashing lights and the bright red numbers showing perhaps ten to twenty kph over their actual speed.

Which makes me wonder what the refresh rate is on British speed cameras? Is there any data?

Nime

quote:

Originally posted by Nime:
Which makes me wonder what the refresh rate is on British speed cameras? Is there any data?

At fixed camera sites there are lines painted on the road to confirm the speed of anyone snapped.
With radar based mobile sites you might have more chance of arguing that the car next to you/behind you was actually the one speeding.

Chaps

You moan like a bunch of old women.

The law was made to protect all of us and not to be argued with by some frustrated Sterling Moss who thinks he is a good driver but almost certainly isn't.

Cameras are here to stay and will mushroom in number and the time will soon come that you just will not be able to speed, anywhere, without getting caught.

If you speed, you get caught, if you get caught you get 3 points, repeat that another 3 times you will lose your licience and probably your job........Your choice.

Stop moaning and stop speeding and all will be well.

Regards

Mick

quote:

Originally posted by Mick Parry:
Stop moaning and stop speeding and all will be well.

except that we won't be any safer and in fact, as has been shown in many countries, we'll be worse off because cameras don't detect dangerous driving.

John

You can think what you want but the authorities are not really interested in what you think.

Speeding increases the likelyhood of accidents and cameras all over the place will reduce overall speeds and increase revenues, so they will soon be on every street in the land.

Thats the reality, so start getting used to it.

Regards

Mick

I believe what irritates those that moan (myself included) is the lie that they are designed to reduce accidents whereas the reality is they are nothing more than revenue raising devices. You only have to look at the positioning of cameras compared to the guidelines for their placement.

quote:

Originally posted by Mick Parry:
Cameras are here to stay and will mushroom in number and the time will soon come that you just will not be able to speed, anywhere, without getting caught.

Mick, it's rather easy to stay one step ahead of the cameras.. Spray your number plate with this