The Dilemma of Recording Quality
Posted by: mikeeschman on 23 May 2009
We have friends who recently retired from the local orchestra. Earlier this week, they commented that of everything, they missed playing Mahler symphonies.
That sent me into the stacks. Our Boulez Mahler 6th had died an unnatural death, so I ordered a Haitink/Chicago replacement on CSO-resound, the Chicago Symphony's house label.
This recording has the most natural sense of air and space of any CD I own, and instrumental timbres are so faithfully rendered it is startling, and it has great dynamics to boot.
But the Mahler 6th suffers from being too long. Like many Mahler symphonies, there is lots of extraneous material. You can walk off in the middle of a musical idea, have a smoke, talk to your wife, get something to eat, make a trip to the bathroom, and when you get back, Mahler will still be chewing on that same old tired bone. Don't get me wrong, Mahler wrote plenty of beautiful music, he's just not too great an editor.
I use the CD remote a lot when I listen to Mahler. I would never dream of doing that to Beethoven or Bach.
So here's the point of frustration : I want the sound of this Mahler disk sans Mahler. I want the Symphonie Fantastique George gave me to sound like this new Mahler disk.
So, how many of you have great sounding disks that you listen to for the sound, even though the music may be lacking?
I can do it for a little while, but not much.
shit!
Posted on: 23 May 2009 by u5227470736789439
Dear Mike,
You know what I think about that!
It is quite asad that all too often the most wonderful musical performances are caught in recordings that are flawed to some extent.
It is splendid when it all comes together with a great perofmance in a great recording..
I am struggling to think of one [which I have at home], and I suppose the 1976 EMI recording of Elgar's The Dream Of Geronius with Gedda as Gerontius and Boult conducting the Philharmonia Orchestra with the Philharmonia, John Aldis, and London Philharmonic [massed] Choirs is actally a great recording of a great performance.
In that case it is the dark quality of the music [all about a man dreaming of his own death] that makes it an infrequent listen for me!
ATB from George
Posted on: 23 May 2009 by Jeremy Marchant
Whilst I agree in general about Mahler's prolixity, surely the sixth symphony is the least deserving of criticism in this respect.
Try a score.
If you want a compressed Mahler 6, try Berg's 3 orchestral pieces, op 6, if you don't already know them.
Posted on: 23 May 2009 by Voltaire
I consider myself an intelligent man, I am months away from a Masters in French Literature when I will decide wether or not to pursue a phd, but what are you all talking about please?
This is the sort of discussion that makes me fearful of classical music.
Posted on: 23 May 2009 by Jeremy Marchant
Voltaire, consider A la recherche du temps perdu. Would you say that novel is excessively long? Does it need pruning to make it more understandable? Of course, had Proust lived longer, it too would have been even longer because the final sections didn't get the revision and expansion given to the rest of the novel. My point is that there is no answer to my question - but one can have a discussion about it.
Mike is saying Mahler's writing style needs editing, tightening up; I agree - I'd call it indulgent - but I suggested that the sixth symphony is actually the Mahler composition least in need of it.
Classical music is no harder than French literature. Why be afraid?
Posted on: 23 May 2009 by Voltaire
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Marchant:
Voltaire, consider A la recherche du temps perdu. Would you say that novel is excessively long? Does it need pruning to make it more understandable?
Mike is saying Mahler's writing style needs editing, tightening up; I agree - I'd call it indulgent - but I suggested that the sixth symphony is actually the Mahler composition least in need of it.
Classical music is no harder than French literature. Why be afraid?
My fear is dissolving...if it's good enough for Proust...
Posted on: 23 May 2009 by mikeeschman
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Marchant:
Mike is saying Mahler's writing style needs editing, tightening up; I agree - I'd call it indulgent - but I suggested that the sixth symphony is actually the Mahler composition least in need of it.
Classical music is no harder than French literature. Why be afraid?
Exactly so. I think the Mahler Symphony most in need of editing is the 9th. The 30 minute first movement is more or less complete in the first 10 minutes. But with the exception of the 1st, I think they all could be trimmed.
In the meantime, I am content to accept them as they are.
Posted on: 23 May 2009 by mikeeschman
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Marchant:
Whilst I agree in general about Mahler's prolixity, surely the sixth symphony is the least deserving of criticism in this respect.
Try a score.
I find the Mahler scores to be very difficult to follow, but that should dissipate with practice.
I am using the Beethoven Symphonies to improve my skills in reading bass clef, and when that exercise bears fruit, I will try another assault on Mahler.
Posted on: 24 May 2009 by Mick Roberts
quote:
Originally posted by mikeeschman:
We have friends who recently retired from the local orchestra. Earlier this week, they commented that of everything, they missed playing Mahler symphonies.
That sent me into the stacks. Our Boulez Mahler 6th had died an unnatural death, so I ordered a Haitink/Chicago replacement on CSO-resound, the Chicago Symphony's house label.
This recording has the most natural sense of air and space of any CD I own, and instrumental timbres are so faithfully rendered it is startling, and it has great dynamics to boot.
But the Mahler 6th suffers from being too long. Like many Mahler symphonies, there is lots of extraneous material. You can walk off in the middle of a musical idea, have a smoke, talk to your wife, get something to eat, make a trip to the bathroom, and when you get back, Mahler will still be chewing on that same old tired bone. Don't get me wrong, Mahler wrote plenty of beautiful music, he's just not too great an editor.
I use the CD remote a lot when I listen to Mahler. I would never dream of doing that to Beethoven or Bach.
So here's the point of frustration : I want the sound of this Mahler disk sans Mahler. I want the Symphonie Fantastique George gave me to sound like this new Mahler disk.
So, how many of you have great sounding disks that you listen to for the sound, even though the music may be lacking?
I can do it for a little while, but not much.
shit!
I disagree with most of this. I still own the CBS LP of Mahler 6, NYP conducted by Bernstein, but not the means to play it. On the basis of reviews I bought the Boulez CD, and it is boring. Last year I found the Bernstein performance reissued on CD in a record store in New York, and I've been playing it ever since. Just yesterday, I saw the same CD in a second-hand record shop in Utrecht, and my reaction was disbelief that anybody would sell it.
Bernstein's Mahler is a great performance, and no edits are required. I would not delete a note. It is a performance like Boulez's that makes Mahler sound in need of editing. On recording (or perhaps playback) quality I would rather listen to Bernstein on my ipod than Boulez on my Naim system.
Posted on: 24 May 2009 by Jeremy Marchant
I just wanted to underline I am NOT advocating cutting existing works. What I meant was some composers could adopt a less indulgent, more rigorous compositional style.
Cutting supossedly overlong works normally makes them seem even longer because the underlying structure has been ruined (eg Bruckner symphonies).
Posted on: 24 May 2009 by Sister E.
quote:
Originally posted by mikeeschman:
Exactly so. I think the Mahler Symphony most in need of editing is the 9th. The 30 minute first movement is more or less complete in the first 10 minutes. But with the exception of the 1st, I think they all could be trimmed.
In the meantime, I am content to accept them as they are.
With due respect Mike -you are out of your tiny little mind.
Posted on: 24 May 2009 by Mick Roberts
quote:
Originally posted by Sister E.:
quote:
Originally posted by mikeeschman:
Exactly so. I think the Mahler Symphony most in need of editing is the 9th. The 30 minute first movement is more or less complete in the first 10 minutes. But with the exception of the 1st, I think they all could be trimmed.
In the meantime, I am content to accept them as they are.
With due respect Mike -you are out of your tiny little mind.
Back in the days when I used to run marathons, it became a tradition to lie on the sofa and listen to Mahler's ninth after a race. When the music finished I was able to walk again. I wouldn't want it any shorter, for that AND musical reasons.
Posted on: 24 May 2009 by Sister E.
Shades of the Emperor Franz Joseph's comments to Mozart, Mike? - "Too many notes" ?
Posted on: 24 May 2009 by mikeeschman
I enjoy the Boulez/Mahler performances because they are exceptionally well played, and I think Boulez does a fine job in rendering the details, but the 3rd I go back to again and again is the Bernstein/NYPhil, and Barbarolli for the 5th.
But in general the emotional overkill of a Bernstein recording is not what I'm looking for.
And with the exception of the 1st, when I listen to Mahler i keep the remote near by.
I do love Mahler, but find it "wordy".
But the Mahler was a side issue. The question was about listening to great recordings of music you don't think is so great.
Posted on: 24 May 2009 by mikeeschman
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Marchant:
I just wanted to underline I am NOT advocating cutting existing works. What I meant was some composers could adopt a less indulgent, more rigorous compositional style.
Cutting supossedly overlong works normally makes them seem even longer because the underlying structure has been ruined (eg Bruckner symphonies).
nice back-pedal :-)
Three years from now, I may find myself hanging on every note of Mahler's 6th, and in the depths of discontent that it ended - just not enough notes, give me more!
I have certainly been like that in the past!
But that's not how it is right now. Give me that remote!
I like it that we can all come to the forum and talk off the top of our heads about our music issues. I hope that is what the forum is for :-)
When I apply the remote to the 1st movement of the Mahler 9th, it seems shorter - not longer, and my watch agrees!
As far as Bruckner goes, for the time being I have had to give up on his music. In this quarter, this is music for another day. I hope this is a temporary situation.
Posted on: 24 May 2009 by Oldnslow
Simply a matter of taste, not quality. Based on a lifetime of listening to the symphonic repetiore, I would conclude that the Mahler 9th and Bruckner 8th are the two greatest symphonies since Brahms. As with Brahms, I would not change a note of either work......
Posted on: 24 May 2009 by mikeeschman
quote:
Originally posted by Oldnslow:
I would conclude that the Mahler 9th and Bruckner 8th are the two greatest symphonies since Brahms.
that would be hard to argue with, but what does it really mean?
Posted on: 25 May 2009 by teabelly
Is your frustration not just a symptom of the modern age where everyone wants everything now? The pace of life is so different now. Why shouldn't the miserable old devil noodle along for an extra 20 minutes?
Is music not an expression of a thought process in some way though? We may get to a conclusion quite quickly but most of us go back and re-hash those thoughts even if they come to the same conclusion so is his music not just doing the same?
Posted on: 25 May 2009 by mikeeschman
quote:
Originally posted by teabelly:
Is your frustration not just a symptom of the modern age where everyone wants everything now? The pace of life is so different now. Why shouldn't the miserable old devil noodle along for an extra 20 minutes?
Is music not an expression of a thought process in some way though? We may get to a conclusion quite quickly but most of us go back and re-hash those thoughts even if they come to the same conclusion so is his music not just doing the same?
i think my reaction is at least partially due to coming off a several month diet of pure Beethoven and diving into the Mahler symphonies.
Posted on: 25 May 2009 by Whizzkid
quote:
Originally posted by Voltaire:
I consider myself an intelligent man, I am months away from a Masters in French Literature when I will decide wether or not to pursue a phd, but what are you all talking about please?
This is the sort of discussion that makes me fearful of classical music.
Gordon,
Get a copy of Mahler's 3rd Symphony all will be revealed, though I like the longer pieces personally and don't really feel that he has extraneous pieces during his symphonies. I like long films as well so its probably just me also this could also just be the novice classical listener in me.
Oldnslow,
Its taken a while but Mahlers 9th is started to gel for me and it is a wonderful piece but it has taken quite a few listens to get me.
Dean..
