Got my QS Ref...

Posted by: Tony L on 29 October 2001

Larry and Dave C brought my new QS Reference across and set it up on Saturday. It’s a black one with silver 100mm tubes, it is not the forthcoming Dave Cattlin-ised "bog seat" version, though I will get the shelf the CDX sits on done later. I currently have the rack stacked from the top down: P9, CDX, space awaiting Tom Evans Microgroove, Nait 2, P9 PSU.

I had recently been running my CDX and Nait 2 on the floor (a wooden laminate), after I sold the last of the Mana (except the spirit level, I'm definitely keeping that!). Whilst placing myself at serious risk of invoking a Mana Jihad, my view on said angle iron is that it does a lot of things very well, but one thing profoundly wrong:- Pitch. Placing the gear on the floor obviously lost out on the things that Mana does really well (detail, slam, dynamics), but conclusively fixed the note pitch problem, so the system was back really making music, it was playing tunes properly, though with less finesse at the hi-fi aspects. Installing the QS Reference brought back the hi-fi aspects I had enjoyed with the Mana without paying the musical price. The timing sounds very natural, it is neither too fast or too slow.

The "non-ferrous" thing is now really evident too, bringing any large chunks of metal near the system will adversely affect its performance quite noticeably. Purely by chance I own a very non-metallic turntable, so its presence does not affect the system that much. The only ferrous bits of a P9 I could find are the centre spindle and the screws that hold the motor in, there are other areas made of metal such as the arm and inner platter, but compared to most decks it is really good in this respect being wooden in construction with a ceramic platter. The Tom Evans Microgroove phono stage I plan to buy very soon is similarly non-metallic in construction - it looks quite like a DNM.

I have not yet played with tweaking the QS setup, though read on a different thread that there is some mileage in how tight the tubes should be done up. Larry said do 'em pretty tight, so as he did them I'm leaving well alone for a while.

Tony.

Posted on: 29 October 2001 by Martin Payne

quote:
Originally posted by Tony Lonorgan:

The "non-ferrous" thing is now really evident too, bringing any large chunks of metal near the system will adversely affect its performance quite noticeably.

Tony,

how close does it have to be before you find there's any noticeable effect?

Do you find that the metal brings back the problems which you got rid of along with the Mana?

cheers, Martin

Posted on: 29 October 2001 by Tony L

quote:
how close does it have to be before you find there's any noticeable effect?

I have not done much experimentation, though I pretty quickly decided to keep the (free!) Rotel phono stage I am using as a stop gap until I get my Tom Evans away from everything else unless I am actually playing a record.

quote:
Do you find that the metal brings back the problems which you got rid of along with the Mana?

The metal in proximity thing is very hard to describe, once I tuned into it I now just realise that the system is sounding "off". This is not an obvious hi-fi thing at all, it took me quite a while to get it, though once got it is very important.

Mana is ferrous, of that there is no doubt, placing it by equipment on a non-ferrous rack can clearly be heard, but the Mana effect is way more than that. Mana really does stuff, its effect is not subtle at all, this is why it has many ardent followers. As ever this is a subjective thing, there are people who get completely hooked on it and will virtually sell their system for another level, yet there are just as many who find its removal is pretty crucial to their musical enjoyment. I now find myself in the latter group, though I can understand why the Mana fans like the stuff.

Tony.

Posted on: 29 October 2001 by Tony L

quote:
have you compared with a Linn Linto?... or do you consider all post-1992 Linn's products as non worth trying ???

I have never heard one, though belive it is very good. Price is a factor, and new it is far more than I want to spend (£850 vs £400 for the Tom Evans). I recently had a quick listen to the Microgroove, and whilst the dem situation was definitely less than ideal (no equipment had been warmed up etc), I could tell it was a seriously good stage. I heard the Microgroove against a Stageline / Flatcap. I came to two conclusions: a) I preferred it to the Stageline / Flatcap by a very large amount. b) Even if it got no better than I heard I would be happy with it - this is the key point, and the reason for my decision. It is tuneful, fast, and gets a hell of a lot of detail off the record.

There are many phono stages out there, but I am obviously not going to get the chance to hear them all, I am therefor happy with my decision to go with the Tom Evans. The fact that it is relatively affordable, upgradable, non-ferrous, and does not have a internal transformer are all additional plus points.

Tony.

PS Bring Vuk back - he would be happily slagging off my first post by now.

Posted on: 29 October 2001 by DLF

Would my girlfriend have to put it down if she wanted to play music? If forced to leave it down all the time i.e. married men, would this compromise sound quality?

David

Posted on: 29 October 2001 by Tony L

quote:
Are you going?

I certainly hope to. I much prefer the northern shows to the main London one, there tends to be far more interesting stuff, and its usually better set up too.

Tony.

Posted on: 29 October 2001 by Steve Toy

Could somebody give me some dates for said show, a well as the venue?
We could all meet up.

If I am not in agreement with someone, I shall challenge the viewpoint and not attack the person behind it.

Posted on: 29 October 2001 by Steve Toy

Sunday would be good for me.
I could drive up in the taxi - hopefully then a brand new Octavia with a 130 bhp diesel unit from the venerable Volkswagon stable. Leave at about five to start work for six thirty back here.
Alternatively, I could just have the night off and get pissed, catching the train back (if there is a train.)

If I am not in agreement with someone, I shall challenge the viewpoint and not attack the person behind it.

Posted on: 29 October 2001 by Steve Toy

It wouldn't be big enough. I'd also have to drive it home.

I think I'll chance my arm on the train with the Glaswegians and their towers of McEwans beer cans, and exchange pleasantries with them on the wi' hem.
Nice fellas!

If I am not in agreement with someone, I shall challenge the viewpoint and not attack the person behind it.

Posted on: 29 October 2001 by Mick P

Mr Lonorgan

I found your first posting delightful, informed, objective and full of wisdom to like minded Hifi enthusiasts.

May I presume you will take your message to the Mana forum ?

Yours in anticipation

Mick

Posted on: 29 October 2001 by Steve Toy

I think he values his membership over there.
JW has now made it clear that there is no free speech on his forum, that the no censorship clause has been removed, and that he will ban whoever he wants for any reason as he sees fit - or as his better half tells him to do!

It's always a nice day for it Have a good one!
Steve.
It's good to get back to normal.

Posted on: 29 October 2001 by Rico

Congrats, Tony.

IIRC Lintos are circa £400 used - surely worth an audition?

As for the goths, ehhhhhh "Justanotherfatwa".

You must take care with bog-seat mod - from the Feng Shui way of thinking, leaving this uncovered will result in all the Chi energy in the room passing through the hole and into oblivion. At the very least that may be manifested in an 80Hz suckout - best avoided with Kans, I'm sure you'll agree.

I am intrigued - will this mod render the QS ref an inverse Vukian X-wing shelf? Careful with that jigsaw, Eugene!

Rico - SM/Mullet Audio

Posted on: 29 October 2001 by Steve Toy

Sometimes denial explains everything, until we are in a position to do anything about it.

Mana does everything apart from tunes...
I said this weeks ago!!

With denial firmly anchored, we use our imagination of accurate pitch, and resulting musical enjoyment thereof, to plug the gaps in our more *real* perception.

QS Reference does the tunes, so sod the rest of the hi-fi crap!

We are here, (well not here precisely - unless your pc room is your listening room) to hear our tunes (I said tunes) not air, space and blackness, and other contextual info behind our musical enjoyment.
Music first, then the social venue...
Tony has changed his mind, as well as his stand - good luck to him! There is nothing wrong with that!
We all live and learn!

It's always a nice day for it Have a good one!
Steve.
It's good to get back to normal.

[This message was edited by Steven Toy on TUESDAY 30 October 2001 at 03:58.]

Posted on: 29 October 2001 by Steve Toy

James,
The priorities of Mana are somehow different...
It's all about absolute hi-fi detail for them.

For QS Ref. aficionados, like myself, it is more about hearing the musical performance against extraneous detail:-
Accurate pitch, timing, note changes on strings, interplay between musicians, ebb and flow, and decent bass notes being more perceptible,

It's always a nice day for it Have a good one!
Steve.
It's good to get back to normal.

Posted on: 29 October 2001 by Steve Toy

I now feel free, devoid of intimidation!

It's always a nice day for it Have a good one!
Steve.
It's good to get back to normal.

Posted on: 29 October 2001 by Jay

James

I find your question to Tony rather interesting considering your "absolutely satisfied" post not that long ago and then, low and behold, acquiring a CDS2 and 52 in a "deal of the century"?

Not a case of double standards, surely?

Jay

Posted on: 29 October 2001 by Martin Payne

quote:
Originally posted by Tony Lonorgan:
The metal in proximity thing is very hard to describe, once I tuned into it I now just realise that the system is sounding "off". This is not an obvious hi-fi thing at all, it took me quite a while to get it, though once got it is very important.

It just seems to make the music disjointed, but I also get a mid-range nastyness which might be likened to mistracking.

cheers, Martin

Posted on: 30 October 2001 by Tony L

James:

quote:
How does ... [me saying Mana buggers the tune...]
... reconcile with your post dated 31 January 2001 [me saying it doesn't...]
and this one dated 29 May 2001 [me saying it doesn't again...]
Is this a case of relativity or absolutism? I would have thought that something can either play tunes or it can't. Can you please elaborate just how badly the Mana plays tunes?

I was waiting for someone to dig that lot up!

My initial posts were based on the fact that I had Mana and could still play along with the music on my bass - obviously Mana can play tunes, otherwise I would not have been able to find a note that fitted. My stand dems at that point consisted of having heard a couple of Mana'd systems, one of which I really liked, and comparing a Mana Reference to a Soundstyle table. Guess what, the Mana is better. So, as Joel was dumping his, I bought a Reference Table. It was so much better than my Soundstyle that when I could afford it I bought a Amp Rack for everything else.

Ok, what went wrong? Larry Ogden, that’s what! Dave Cattlin got in touch about a year and a half or so ago and invited me around to hear his system, I went, and I really enjoyed it. It did stuff musically that mine simply did not do. That was not enough to convince me though as Dave's system is worth three to four times more than mine, so it should be a lot better. Matthew Robinson has always had a system that I have really liked, and again that is built using the Audio Works ideology, though again it was a system that cost many times more than mine. I did think however that I should meet Larry, so I went across on a Thursday when the shop opens a little later.

The thing that convinced me was hearing a little system in Larry's shop, just a CDX, 102, 180, and either a pair of Intros or equivalently priced JM Labs speakers - this system worked really well, and in the way that Dave's did. This started ringing some alarm bells, as this system was not that much different in value to mine. Yet it did something radically better, and unfortunately that something is really, really hard to put into words - it is more than pitch, though this is the most obvious area, and the easiest to describe. Everyone at the Audio Works blamed my Mana, but I needed proof, after all I had invested a lot of money the stuff, so I later went back to the shop with my Reference table. You know the rest…

I certainly don't feel at all hypocritical by changing my mind on this, after all this is a learning curve for all of us whether we are punters, dealers, or manufacturers. Stand design is a emerging technology, as people start discovering why they make such a profound difference to the sound they will obviously improve. So, back to the original question - does Mana play tunes? Yes, but the QS Reference plays tunes better.

Tony.

Posted on: 30 October 2001 by Steve Toy

With respect, I may offer my own response to your question which may have been directed at Tony, as this does nothing to prevent Tony from giving his own response at a later stage - and he has now done so.
If you wish only to receive a reply exclusively from one individual, then please contact them via email.
I, too have had to make the difficult choice between QS Ref. and Mana regarding tunes, and thus, I feel my findings/opinions on this matter are highly pertinent here.

It's always a nice day for it Have a good one!
Steve.
It's good to get back to normal.

Posted on: 30 October 2001 by Greg Beatty

I realized something really neat about timing the other day.

My wife and I are musicians and are also dance. We started up a new set of swing dance lessons on Sunday and the instructors were using cheap stuff through JVC speakers. The timing was buggered - BUT everyone in the room (50+ people) including the instructors and us could dance to it!!! What was going on?

Answer: Its possible to dance - or play along - to a stereo if you only focus on the relevant part of the music. If I follow the bass - I can dance to it (unless it is TOTALLY flabby or missing). But if I try to also listen to the lyrics or the lead guitar, then problems set in. The different pieces of the music don't fit together well and it is as though I am listening to a sub-standard performance of the music. It is as if the group is playing together for the first time and they have not gelled yet.

Does this make sense? Any other observations?

- Greg

Insert Witty Signature Line Here

Posted on: 30 October 2001 by Steve Toy

I haven't explored the non-ferrous aspects yet, only the fact that I don't have a ringing iron frame and glass shelves that are designed to ring so that you can tune them on the spikes.
(BTW, I know you have to tune the Reference top of the QS as well, but it's different.)
I know the radiator in my room is ferrous, as is the wallshelf (Rega) supporting my turntable.
I'm bothered more by things that ring, so I intend to change that glass lampshade for example.
If you could perform a demonstration of this effect, I'd be happy to note any differences.

It's always a nice day for it Have a good one!
Steve.
It's good to get back to normal.

Posted on: 30 October 2001 by Tony L

quote:
Tony, if I understand your last note, you seem to allude to the fact that this phenomenon is more complex than just frequency shifts. I can buy that.

It is one of those things I just can't find words for, which is intensely annoying. I find Mana almost puts up a wall between me and the music, there is something that prevents me getting involved. With the QS Ref / removal of unnecessary metal from the vicinity the tune hits home far easier, I do not have to concentrate anywhere near as hard to work it out. Its one of those things where hearing it for yourself will explain things far better than my words ever can. It is blindingly obvious once you home in on it.

quote:
Still trying to figure out the 32.5+135s+P9 => Nait2+CDX move, though....

The P9 is very much alive and well. The amp change is a refinancing issue. The 135s actually went ages ago, I swapped them for a similar vintage 250 and enough money to pay the stamp duty on my new flat. I did not really notice their departure as the 32.5 was the bottleneck in the system from a analogue perspective. I realised this, but had priced myself out of the game, I could not really justify spending even the second hand price of a 82.

I also really wanted to upgrade my digital source, as I do spend a hell of a lot of time listening to CD, I did not want quite such a gap between the two sources. Prior to this I had "accidentally" landed a Nait 1 in another deal, this now resides in my second system. I was absolutely amazed at how good it was and decided I could live with something only slightly better, hence the hunt for a late Nait 2 (allegedly the best of the Naits). I got a mint line level only one for 170 quid! I flogged the big amp and got the CDX. The Nait 2 drives the Kans fine to the level I want to listen at, and the system is now sounding great.

The final piece of the jigsaw is the phono stage, I temporarily have a very kindly donated Rotel RQ970, but the CDX simply takes it outside and shoots it sound wise. So I am going to land a Tom Evans Microgroove ASAP which will almost certainly tip the balance back to vinyl. My system will end up very front end first in balance, which is a state I am more than happy to leave it in. Once I get the Microgroove in I don't plan doing anything else for a hell of a long time (other than getting the 1992 Nait recapped and serviced).

Job done (…hopefully!).

Tony.

Posted on: 30 October 2001 by Joe Petrik

Tony,

Is your Expressimo HW doing the bidnit over time? The more I listen to mine the more I'm convinced that although it improves a lot of stuff, the biggest gain is its getting the tune right.

Joe

P.S. Sorry for hijacking your tread with unrelated tripe. Oh, here's some more unrelated tripe.

Posted on: 30 October 2001 by Tony L

quote:
Is your Expressimo HW doing the bidnit over time? The more I listen to mine the more I'm convinced that although it improves a lot of stuff, the biggest gain is its getting the tune right.

I'm not really playing a lot of vinyl at the moment, I need to wait until I get the new phono stage bought, installed, burnt in, and warmed up. This will hopefully be real soon. It is great that I can actually play records at present thanks to my very kindly donated temporary Rotel stage, but its performance is light years behind the 323 boards in the old 32.5. So I have recently been concentrating on CD, which thanks to the new CDX has never sounded better.

Certainly when I last did the comparison of the Expressimo Heavy Weight through my 32.5 / Hicap / 250 I preferred it by quite some sizeable amount. Initially it sounded less exciting, but I found this "excitement" to be down to a bit of a zingy quality of the original weight. The Expressimo was more sure footed and solid sounding, with to my ears a far more convincing low end. The bass made more musical sense, and to my ears it helped correct the P9's slightly lightweight balance. I liked it, but obviously reserve the right to change my mind, after all there have been some pretty serious changes since I last seriously tried it.

What is your verdict? Yours has almost certainly got far more miles on the clock than mine by now…

Tony.

Posted on: 30 October 2001 by Joe Petrik

Tony,

quote:
What is your verdict? Yours has almost certainly got far more miles on the clock than mine by now...

I haven't gone back to my heavy Rega weight to compare but records certainly seem more enjoyable with the Expressimo weight.

Just wondering what you think about the weight since you went from a stand you thought didn't do tune very well to one that gets it spot on, and correct tune seems to be one of the things the Heavy Weight does right, so...

Joe

Posted on: 30 October 2001 by Mick P

Chaps

My kit is mounted on Hutter because I like the sound and appearance of it. It's all wood and aluminium....no steel or iron anywhere.

However, I have on several occassions played a little experiment.

I have done this with the wireless, CD player and TT.

I play some music and then I plonk a Lecruset frying pan on the amp and the Cd player etc.

Can I hear a difference.....no I cannot. The frying pan is made of cast iron and is more ferrous than steel.

My wife and sons cannot hear any difference as well. So in this instance I side with the non weany boys.

Regards

Mick