The Holocaust - Important evidence ...
Posted by: u5227470736789439 on 27 January 2010
The Holocaust - Important evidence of what was known, and when ...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/e...h4/Today_27_01_2010/
This a link from the BBC Radio Four broadcast of the Today Programme of 27/1/2010. Listen from 2 hours 40 seconds, which is towards the end of the news bulletin at 8 o'clock. The extract is a report on the Holocaust where the reporter introduces a Polish Jew from Lodz [sounds as wudje in English phonetics], who survived Auschwitz. He made a very interesting comment that the victims knew their fate because the BBC had broadcast what their fate would be before they had arrived at Auschwitz.
This is a crucial piece of evidence about what was known by the Allies [or even in Germany] about it. The Wanasee Conference [about the fate of the Jews and others] of Nazi leaders was supposed to be a secret at the time even in Germany, and so it is possible to conceive of the horrors being a big surprise as the Death and Concentration Camps were liberated and the full terror of what was going on became the subject news reports across the world.
That the BBC already was able to report about it while it went on rather suggests that the British Government was fully aware of it.
I have never been able to get a straight answer about what was known and when, but this short snippet suggests that it was well enough known about, at least by British Intelligence [and therefore the British Government], and clearly by the BBC news gathering organisation.
Never again will I believe the line spun by Nazi apologists that it was a big shock once the camps were liberated.
I hope there is never a time when this horrific episode in European history is forgotten ...
George
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/e...h4/Today_27_01_2010/
This a link from the BBC Radio Four broadcast of the Today Programme of 27/1/2010. Listen from 2 hours 40 seconds, which is towards the end of the news bulletin at 8 o'clock. The extract is a report on the Holocaust where the reporter introduces a Polish Jew from Lodz [sounds as wudje in English phonetics], who survived Auschwitz. He made a very interesting comment that the victims knew their fate because the BBC had broadcast what their fate would be before they had arrived at Auschwitz.
This is a crucial piece of evidence about what was known by the Allies [or even in Germany] about it. The Wanasee Conference [about the fate of the Jews and others] of Nazi leaders was supposed to be a secret at the time even in Germany, and so it is possible to conceive of the horrors being a big surprise as the Death and Concentration Camps were liberated and the full terror of what was going on became the subject news reports across the world.
That the BBC already was able to report about it while it went on rather suggests that the British Government was fully aware of it.
I have never been able to get a straight answer about what was known and when, but this short snippet suggests that it was well enough known about, at least by British Intelligence [and therefore the British Government], and clearly by the BBC news gathering organisation.
Never again will I believe the line spun by Nazi apologists that it was a big shock once the camps were liberated.
I hope there is never a time when this horrific episode in European history is forgotten ...
George
Posted on: 27 January 2010 by u5227470736789439
Correction: Listen from 2 hours, 8 minutes, and 40 seconds. Sorry.
Posted on: 28 January 2010 by Mike-B
I think it is well known that the Allies knew about the camps, a Polish speaking relation of mine was assigned some time ahead of the eventual liberation to be part of the camp investigation process. Not sure when all this took place, but it was quite a time beforehand because I recall him saying all his buddies went to Normandy & he didn't.
I do recall him saying the extent & scale was the shocking part.
Didn't hear about the BBC stuff tho', I need to go listen, thanks for the tip.
I do recall him saying the extent & scale was the shocking part.
Didn't hear about the BBC stuff tho', I need to go listen, thanks for the tip.
Posted on: 28 January 2010 by u5227470736789439
Yes, I am sure the BBC would have not broadcast this unless they knew that what the old Polish survivor said about their reporting was not verifiable.
Several people I know [older than me and I am 48] have assured me nothing was known till the camps were liberated. One was certainly more or less a Holocaust denier as well, so this obfuscation ties in.
I now am sure that they were being revisionist in their relaying of the known facts of the day - ie. the situation was understood before the liberation of the camps.
It also gives the lie to the claim that Furtwangler, Bohm, and Karajan [and others of course] were in the dark about it whilst they cleaved so enthusiastically to Nazi governed Germany.
ATB from George
Several people I know [older than me and I am 48] have assured me nothing was known till the camps were liberated. One was certainly more or less a Holocaust denier as well, so this obfuscation ties in.
I now am sure that they were being revisionist in their relaying of the known facts of the day - ie. the situation was understood before the liberation of the camps.
It also gives the lie to the claim that Furtwangler, Bohm, and Karajan [and others of course] were in the dark about it whilst they cleaved so enthusiastically to Nazi governed Germany.
ATB from George
Posted on: 28 January 2010 by Mike-B
George, according to Wikipedia British intelligence had information about the concentration camps, and in 1942 a Jan Karski delivered a thorough eyewitness account to the UK government.
Posted on: 28 January 2010 by u5227470736789439
I shall have to research Jan Karski. Good to know more than a denier, when perhaps encouring revisionism. Thanks for the name to make reference to!
ATB from George
ATB from George
Posted on: 28 January 2010 by JamieWednesday
quote:I do recall him saying the extent & scale was the shocking part.
I have to say this was my understanding too from sources including Simon Wiesenthal. Based largely on the fact that Jews (& Gypsies and others) were widely getting the sh*t kicked out of them with great regularity and enjoyment in many nations pre-war (including Poland) and further by citizens of occupied nations during the war.
It seemed the British and American governments made the assumption that the scale of violence and death had been ramped up somewhat (and that many people were disappearing into and through camps) from local reports but they were unaware of the sheer scale and mechanical nature of disposal. Or they couldn't bring themselves to believe it.
Would it have made any difference? Could the invasion of Europe have happened any sooner? Would they have been beleived if they had gone public if they knew? I suspect not.
Posted on: 28 January 2010 by BigH47
Good points Jamie ,what should we and others have done with the information, Germany were unlikely to bend to any International pressure, were Japan and Italy going to pull out of the Axis? I think not.
I'm sure a lot of high ups would have been hard pushed to believe some of the stories, I still have trouble getting my head round that sort of thinking, to produce an industry of death, from selection,to transport and finally disposal, and keep the documentation too.
I'm sure a lot of high ups would have been hard pushed to believe some of the stories, I still have trouble getting my head round that sort of thinking, to produce an industry of death, from selection,to transport and finally disposal, and keep the documentation too.
Posted on: 28 January 2010 by u5227470736789439
quote:Originally posted by BigH47:
Good points Jamie, what should we and others have done with the information, Germany were unlikely to bend to any International pressure, were Japan and Italy going to pull out of the Axis? I think not.
I'm sure a lot of high ups would have been hard pushed to believe some of the stories, I still have trouble getting my head round that sort of thinking, to produce an industry of death, from selection,to transport and finally disposal, and keep the documentation too.
Incredible behaviour, which is why we must not forget.
No one would believe it till it was too late if we did not remember that it had happened in apparently civilised Europe already.
Thanks for all your replies.
ATB from George
Posted on: 02 February 2010 by Frank Abela
Sadly (incredibly?), some people still refuse to believe it.
I'm with the general view that the scale was what shook everyone. It was well known that the concentration camps existed, but I don't believe the extent, scale and medical experimentation aspects were well known. The UK government may have known from 1942, but I'm not sure the general populace knew. I remember my parents saying they knew the conentration camps existed but didn't realise the enormity of it until after the war. Perhaps there was an element of disbelief that human beings could act so?
I'm with the general view that the scale was what shook everyone. It was well known that the concentration camps existed, but I don't believe the extent, scale and medical experimentation aspects were well known. The UK government may have known from 1942, but I'm not sure the general populace knew. I remember my parents saying they knew the conentration camps existed but didn't realise the enormity of it until after the war. Perhaps there was an element of disbelief that human beings could act so?
Posted on: 02 February 2010 by u5227470736789439
Dear Frank,
I agree completely with your assessment of it. Even now it is incredible were it not for the evidence. I visited Lublin three years ago, and am yet building the courage one day to visit Auschwitz. One day I shall. Lublin has the dubious benefit of being less visited, but I suspect it is just as desolate.
http://forums.naim-audio.com/e...882928607#5882928607
ATB from George
I agree completely with your assessment of it. Even now it is incredible were it not for the evidence. I visited Lublin three years ago, and am yet building the courage one day to visit Auschwitz. One day I shall. Lublin has the dubious benefit of being less visited, but I suspect it is just as desolate.
http://forums.naim-audio.com/e...882928607#5882928607
ATB from George
Posted on: 02 February 2010 by Mike-B
George, for what its worth, I have visited Auschwitz.
It was a quick 1hr visit en route to a business meeting with a Polish colleague.
The thing that struck me was the silence, no bird song, no noise from anything. OK it was a still no wind autumn morning with a touch of frost, but I was moved.
It was a quick 1hr visit en route to a business meeting with a Polish colleague.
The thing that struck me was the silence, no bird song, no noise from anything. OK it was a still no wind autumn morning with a touch of frost, but I was moved.
Posted on: 02 February 2010 by u5227470736789439
Only crows at Lublin. No bird song.
The atmosphere of horror fills the place.
The atmosphere of horror fills the place.
Posted on: 03 February 2010 by Mick P
quote:Originally posted by Frank Abela:
Sadly (incredibly?), some people still refuse to believe it.
I'm with the general view that the scale was what shook everyone. It was well known that the concentration camps existed, but I don't believe the extent, scale and medical experimentation aspects were well known. The UK government may have known from 1942, but I'm not sure the general populace knew. I remember my parents saying they knew the conentration camps existed but didn't realise the enormity of it until after the war. Perhaps there was an element of disbelief that human beings could act so?
Frank
I suspect you are right. A friend of my Father actually helped to liberate one of these places and whilst he knew they existed, he was shocked beyond belief at the sheer size of the place and also the "efficiency" in which they operated.
You have to remember that the German HQ had a strict policy that no notes were to be kept of the design and building of these places and that no minutes were ever taken of any meetings involved in their setting up and purpose etc.
I have never been to one of these places and I have no wish to do so. Reading about it is bad enough but actually visiting would just be too much.
Regards
Mick
Posted on: 03 February 2010 by Derek Wright
If you are unable to visit Poland or Germany there are some very chilling exhibitions dedicated to the Holocaust in
London at the Imperial War Museum,
Washington DC at the Holocaust Museum
Sydney Australia at the Jewish Museum
and no doubt there are other commemorations of the act at other museums.
All of the above have great impact on the visitor.
London at the Imperial War Museum,
Washington DC at the Holocaust Museum
Sydney Australia at the Jewish Museum
and no doubt there are other commemorations of the act at other museums.
All of the above have great impact on the visitor.
Posted on: 03 February 2010 by BigH47
quote:All of the above have great impact on the visitor.
As does a visit to one of the camps.
Our immediate family have been very moved by it.
A visit can bring a lot more ,sometimes too much more, like visiting Allied war graves and seeing the rows of crosses radiate out.
Posted on: 03 February 2010 by Richard Dane
Following the OP's request (and my better judgement), I've trimmed back some of the posts from this afternoon.
Threads on religion and race are always highly emotionally charged. I allow a fair bit of leeway on Padded Cell threads to allow for this so please don't abuse it.
Threads on religion and race are always highly emotionally charged. I allow a fair bit of leeway on Padded Cell threads to allow for this so please don't abuse it.
Posted on: 03 February 2010 by Mike Dudley
Another strange phenomenon...
When I visited Dachau back in the 1980's, as well as no birdsong (as someone else mentioned) the most curious thing was that I observed birds flying towards the camp and then turning to circumnavigate the boundaries. Very odd.
When I visited Dachau back in the 1980's, as well as no birdsong (as someone else mentioned) the most curious thing was that I observed birds flying towards the camp and then turning to circumnavigate the boundaries. Very odd.
Posted on: 03 February 2010 by Roy T
Towards the end of WWII may father was part of several security details sent to assist the medical staff when entering and setting up facilities in a few of the newly liberated and what then known as prison camps. He did not talk to much about this episode of his life other than to say what a complete shock it was to discover what had taken place, it was far worse than he or any of the liberating forces had imagined.
He told of feeding the people, staring with small amounts then building up over a period to larger meals. He talked of cleaning the people, removal of all body hair, delousing, burning and replacing all of their clothing. He told harrowing accounts of the diseases encountered in the camps and the attempts made made by the medical staff to stem their spread. He talked about gathering details for the Red Cross in efforts to reunite friends and family.
I do not know the names of the camps he visited and it is now too late to now ask him but I did gather from him that for the most part the German forces and the German people he encountered when advancing across Europe were much the same as him and his fellow soldiers with both sides fighting for what they believed in.
It was these camps and those who conceived and run them who were reviled equally by allies and Germans alike, these people did not seem to be cut from the same cloth as the rest of humanity.
He told of feeding the people, staring with small amounts then building up over a period to larger meals. He talked of cleaning the people, removal of all body hair, delousing, burning and replacing all of their clothing. He told harrowing accounts of the diseases encountered in the camps and the attempts made made by the medical staff to stem their spread. He talked about gathering details for the Red Cross in efforts to reunite friends and family.
I do not know the names of the camps he visited and it is now too late to now ask him but I did gather from him that for the most part the German forces and the German people he encountered when advancing across Europe were much the same as him and his fellow soldiers with both sides fighting for what they believed in.
It was these camps and those who conceived and run them who were reviled equally by allies and Germans alike, these people did not seem to be cut from the same cloth as the rest of humanity.
Posted on: 03 February 2010 by u5227470736789439
One of my school masters was a splendid old man called Staniforth. He was in the leading group of the British Army that went into Bergen Belsen.
The experience left him with debilitating bouts of depression that stayed with him all his life. He never spoke of it, though it left him a very emotional man, though always highly professional as a teacher. But one could see the passion in his eyes, the suppressed emotions, and as he taught English - particularly Literature - his response to the texts were indeed on occasion passionate indeed.
It was an absence for a few days that caused my Housemaster to explain the situation to me. Many of the boys had not spotted his extreme emotional response to English texts, and when I relayed my observations of this, my Housemaster took the time to explain the whole story ...
It must have been unimaginable for people who never saw it.
ATB from George
The experience left him with debilitating bouts of depression that stayed with him all his life. He never spoke of it, though it left him a very emotional man, though always highly professional as a teacher. But one could see the passion in his eyes, the suppressed emotions, and as he taught English - particularly Literature - his response to the texts were indeed on occasion passionate indeed.
It was an absence for a few days that caused my Housemaster to explain the situation to me. Many of the boys had not spotted his extreme emotional response to English texts, and when I relayed my observations of this, my Housemaster took the time to explain the whole story ...
It must have been unimaginable for people who never saw it.
ATB from George
Posted on: 03 February 2010 by shoot6x7
I hope that my following comment is in line, if not feel free to prune Richard.
I just read how Silvio Burlusconi just made a speech to the Israeli parliament describing the response against the Palestinians last year a legitimate one.
The Holocaust was the most unforgivable crime against humanity ever perpetrated. However, it is also unforgivable that it is still used as justification by some to excuse the behaviour of Israel against unarmed civilians.
I just read how Silvio Burlusconi just made a speech to the Israeli parliament describing the response against the Palestinians last year a legitimate one.
The Holocaust was the most unforgivable crime against humanity ever perpetrated. However, it is also unforgivable that it is still used as justification by some to excuse the behaviour of Israel against unarmed civilians.
Posted on: 03 February 2010 by u5227470736789439
The History should be remembered in my view precisely to try to avoid future similar actions.
Using History to justify plainly immoral actions today is a bit like attaching a policy of Holy War to religion. Wrong. I will not comment on the Zionist position here, as it is for another thread, which I shall not start, but someone else might.
There are extremists in all view-points, and I have no agreement with them ...
This thread was as much cautionary [in intent] as in support of anyone. I see moderation and co-opperation in every field as the correct way.
As Churchill said, "Jaw-jaw, not war-war."
ATB from George
Using History to justify plainly immoral actions today is a bit like attaching a policy of Holy War to religion. Wrong. I will not comment on the Zionist position here, as it is for another thread, which I shall not start, but someone else might.
There are extremists in all view-points, and I have no agreement with them ...
This thread was as much cautionary [in intent] as in support of anyone. I see moderation and co-opperation in every field as the correct way.
As Churchill said, "Jaw-jaw, not war-war."
ATB from George
Posted on: 03 February 2010 by Mike-B
quote:The Holocaust was the most unforgivable crime against humanity ever perpetrated. However, it is also unforgivable that it is still used as justification by some to excuse the behaviour of Israel against unarmed civilians.
101% AGREE, but need to add that the unarmed civilians are living with (under sufferance) or are actively supporting armed terrorists or freedom fighters or warriors of god - whatever is your viewing angle.
Problem is its a gold plated mess of the 1st order & will probably take generations to sort out & shooting will only make it worse, as will land seizures for new Israeli settlements.
Posted on: 03 February 2010 by BigH47
Just as piece of hypothetical thinking does any one have any thoughts on if the Allies could have actually done any thing about the camps, in Germany here and Japan ?
I have given it some thought but can't think of anything, bearing in mind there locations, only partisan intervention seems to come any where near.
Use of precision strike by Mosquitoes maybe, but even if any inmates were liberated how to keep them safe and alive until we were in a position to invade, beggars belief for the logistics.
Could we have successfully invaded a year
earlier?
Please can we leave this thread on the original subject.
Start a Middle east thread on another thread, I know it has linkage but not enough IMO.
I have given it some thought but can't think of anything, bearing in mind there locations, only partisan intervention seems to come any where near.
Use of precision strike by Mosquitoes maybe, but even if any inmates were liberated how to keep them safe and alive until we were in a position to invade, beggars belief for the logistics.
Could we have successfully invaded a year
earlier?
Please can we leave this thread on the original subject.
Start a Middle east thread on another thread, I know it has linkage but not enough IMO.
Posted on: 03 February 2010 by u5227470736789439
Not much chance. Even in early 1944 it was not obvious that the Allies would prevale in the broad military sense let alone be able to devote effort to tragic, but strictly non-military targets.
ATB from George
ATB from George
Posted on: 03 February 2010 by u5227470736789439
quote:Please can we leave this thread on the original subject.
Start a Middle east thread on another thread, I know it has linkage but not enough IMO.
Agreed.