The Holocaust - Important evidence ...

quote:

Originally posted by BigH47:
Just as piece of hypothetical thinking does any one have any thoughts on if the Allies could have actually done any thing about the camps, in Germany here and Japan ?

I have given it some thought but can't think of anything, bearing in mind there locations, only partisan intervention seems to come any where near.
Use of precision strike by Mosquitoes maybe, but even if any inmates were liberated how to keep them safe and alive until we were in a position to invade, beggars belief for the logistics.

Could we have successfully invaded a year
earlier?


Please can we leave this thread on the original subject.
Start a Middle east thread on another thread, I know it has linkage but not enough IMO.

The allies knew of the existance of the camp at Auschwitz and could have bombed the IG Faren chemical plant beside it but chose not to.

Whether it was down to believing that no one could commit atrocities such as this I do not know but who knows if they had bombed the site how many it may have saved.

Lets not forget the fact that Genocide still happens today, Darfur, Cambodia and Rwanada amongst others and yet we as a so called civillised society still stand back and do nothing.

quote:

Lets not forget the fact that Genocide still happens today, Darfur, Cambodia and Rwanada amongst others and yet we as a so called civillised society still stand back and do nothing.

And finally the penny drops about the intention of the thread. Thanks ewemon.

ATB from George

Good point about the IG Farben factory, I assume you are referring to Zyklon B production?
IG Farben sub contracted this out to the 2 suppliers.
So I am not sure if it was actually made in the Auschswitz (Monwitz) plant, not sure that bombing the plant would have actually saved that many, but you don't know.If the Germans were "rumbled" they may have implemented other systems.


BTW Zyklon B was used as a disnfectant, but was made for use in the chambers woithout the warning odour.

Unfortunately the first website Google found was saying it was only used to disinfect the prisoners in these chambers.

Didn't the plant at Auschwitz only produce Synthetic oil and rubber for the German war effort?

But the question still remains why do we never intercede to stop genocide in what are mainly poor countries?

It appears to me that force is only used when the Western Governments have a commercial interest in that country.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike-B:

quote:

The Holocaust was the most unforgivable crime against humanity ever perpetrated. However, it is also unforgivable that it is still used as justification by some to excuse the behaviour of Israel against unarmed civilians.

101% AGREE, but need to add that the unarmed civilians are living with (under sufferance) or are actively supporting armed terrorists or freedom fighters or warriors of god - whatever is your viewing angle.
Problem is its a gold plated mess of the 1st order & will probably take generations to sort out & shooting will only make it worse, as will land seizures for new Israeli settlements.

The problem is basically modern warfare and how it has evolved. Vietnam changed all that.

quote:

yet we as a so called civillised society still stand back and do nothing.

I think you will find the UN is the place to have that particular debate.
The 'penny dropped' a very long time ago, yet the close neighbours of many of the countries seem somewhat unwilling to take action.
With recent history in mind do we really want to go down the road of taking over another country and then try and re-build it and its infrastructure?
The Human rights issue in China is a long, long way from being resolved, yet very few seem to worry overly about buying chinese manufactured goods?
No, the attrocities should not be forgotten, and many parallels may be drawn, but without worlwide agreement to go in and do something - then we are a bit hamstrung?

ewemon, we need to stay on topic - Holocaust - But you might be right

Re yr Q - didn't Auschwitz only produce Synthetic oil and rubber, I believe it produced a number of oil based chemicals, some such as oil & rubber & others used in the war effort, but some used in the camps.

I defer to others with more knowledge on this, but I vaguely remember a TV prog on the bombing raid on the factory & the insistence of care & precision in not harming the people in the adjacent camp, proof positive the allies knew about them.
As been said before, it was the scale, inhumanity & what was practically automation of the process that was so shocking.

My opinion is that the looking at exactly when the Allies knew about the Holocaust takes a much too simplified view of the issue.

It is clear that everyone knew of the persecution and murder of the Jewish people starting in 1933. At that time, while many Jews could not understand what was going on since they considered themselves Germans first and Jews second, many others started to leave Germany and ultimately Europe.

Let's remember that in 1937 the US turned away the USS Saint Louis, a steamship filled with Jews fleeing Europe. Furthermore at the Evian conference in 1939, called by FDR, to address Jewish immigration, the entire world chose to refuse entry into their countries of those trying to escape persecution. The reasons are anti-semitism and others cite the fact of the Great Depression and economics. Nevertheless, everyone knew and almost no one did anything about it at this time. This gave the green light for the Nazi's to do what they wanted knowing that essentially no one would help. Therefore, the entire world is essentially guilty in allowing to occur what finally happened. Yes, there were those who helped and saved many lives, but the tragedy is that soo many more could easily have been saved before it was too late.

Let's not also forget why the camps were built. Not only for more efficient, mass killing, but they were developed as an alternative to the mass shootings which the Nazi's were undertaking prior to the camps which the SS said was "demoralizing their men." So, remove the faces and killing becomes easier for the SS to deal with on a "personal" level.

As far as bombing the camps or factories. It is clear that the Allies knew from aerial footage and intelligence that the camps were there and still chose not to bomb them. Certainly in 1942 bombing was not very accurate to say the least. Many politicians and military personnel felt that the bombing might kill those held in the camps and not halt the mass murder. It is a difficult question and there was alot of resistance, even from Jews in the US about this particular tactic.

Dear Gary,

Thank you for posting this, and taking the time to repost it after the original was, I believe, lost.

George

One of the problems with Rwanda is that is is still a Sovereign country and one with which we are not at war.

For the largely white West to send in troops to a former Colony would not sit well with Rwandas' neighbours.

Its an African problem and should be dealt with by Africans.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Lacey:
One of the problems with Rwanda is that is is still a Sovereign country and one with which we are not at war.

For the largely white West to send in troops to a former Colony would not sit well with Rwandas' neighbours.

Its an African problem and should be dealt with by Africans.

Or a sensitively led UN intervention with real ability to deal with the situation promptly and effectively.

Jono

Any UN intervention would need to have armed forces backing it. Having foreign armies on the continent - particularly when you consider most have a colonal past - would not be tolerated.

I really feel this needs to be solved by Africans.